Speculation: Roster Building thread: Part XIX (Thanks, Sam)

[NickyFotiu]

I think the KHL didnt care about his "behavioral issues" and more the fact that he can't/won't actually play defense.

Or both.

 

[xsniper11x]

This team isn’t as bad as they look at times. They have talented players. Going in to the offseason, if Drury is serious about retooling I’m pretty confident he can do so and that this is a good playoff team next season. Some of the things we are seeing appear to be players just completely disjointed and unwilling to adjust. At this point, I don’t think it’s the coach as we’ve seen it from this group more than once with various coaches.

Panarin has value
Kreider has value
Should Drury want to, Miller and Schneider have value

They appear to have a slew of depth forwards at their disposal. All of which appear to play a very specific type of game. Rempe, Edstrom, Berard, Othmann, Chmelar, Roobreck, Sykora, Laba. There’s a clear common theme in there.

I also think the team looks like a bit of a disjointed mess because the transition from a mainly skilled team with veteran forwards to a younger team with players who play more of a straight line has made things complicated.

I’m in this camp too. The bones aren’t that bad and the amount of star turnover we’re seeing in today’s NHL makes it much easier to retool on the fly (as long as you’re in a desirable market). However, I do worry it can take longer than we hope. Kreider is the only one of the core 3 that we know will be moved. Panarin should be moved, but that’s not up to Drury. Ditto for Zib, and that might remain the case for a long time.

If we can swing a deal for a Peterka type and find a competent LD for Fox, that can go a long way along w/ Perreault coming up. Plus getting the kids away from Bread and learning winning NHL hockey. It’s not insurmountable, but it could take a few years longer than hoped. And that’s assuming we find the right fit to coach them.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Or both.

Fair.

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

Can trent frederic be a legit 3C?

 

[Boris Zubov]

I’m in this camp too. The bones aren’t that bad and the amount of star turnover we’re seeing in today’s NHL makes it much easier to retool on the fly (as long as you’re in a desirable market). However, I do worry it can take longer than we hope. Kreider is the only one of the core 3 that we know will be moved. Panarin should be moved, but that’s not up to Drury. Ditto for Zib, and that might remain the case for a long time.

If we can swing a deal for a Peterka type and find a competent LD for Fox, that can go a long way along w/ Perreault coming up. Plus getting the kids away from Bread and learning actual NHL hockey. It’s not insurmountable, but it could take a few years longer than hoped. And that’s assuming we find the right fit to coach them.

That would get them into a playoff spot...still not enough high end talent to win it all.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Gorton set a terrible example when a teammate (ADA) as fed up with another teammate (Georgiev) for his well known piss poor performance...

And what did Gorton do? Keep the piss poor performer ...

That set a TERRIBLE example in this locker room. Toru a backed Gorton up on it which was another sickening moment

Come on...I'm not a Georgiev fan but jeez, Deangelo was being a dick and paid the price, he's continued to be a dick everywhere he went. Deangelo was a -5 that game, for him to be critical of anyone is laughable.

 

[bernmeister]

Lol, Kreider is not the guy getting the puck to Mika, he's the guy chilling at the side of the net waiting to have one bounce off of him. I would argue that any player in the league given this much ice time in the top 6, on the pp and pk would at the least have 5 assists on this team.

I would say the bold is closer to fair NOW w/CK having fullest degree of wear + tear to date this season, and Zib returning from the dead somewhat. HOWEVER, that was NOT the case earlier in the yr when ck still had anything at all in the tank and zib fully checked out, without any justification whatsoever.

There's no "sanctimonious hypocrisy" at all.

Just more baseless word salad speculation from you. No club can "force" a player to play despite your insinuation to the contrary.

The evidence, however, is clear that Kreider played in a completely optional tournament that, if he were indeed seriously injured, would've been in the Ranger's (and Krieder's) best interest not to play. And he played.

His choice. Let that f***ing "sink in".

Kreider is playing because he's telling the team that he can, not because he's being forced to. This isn't the the 1960's. NHL players are not "forced" to play through injuries - particularly if they are serious.

This is on Kreider who clearly thinks he's healthy enough to play and contribute and the evidence points to the contrary.

He should shut it down for the season and let Othmann play.

It is not word salad just b'c you disagree.
It IS "sanctimonious hypocrisy" by you. You continue to deride CK when lack of production is directly due to injury

As to "The evidence, however, is clear that Kreider played in a completely optional tournament that, if he were indeed seriously injured, would've been in the Ranger's (and Krieder's) best interest not to play. And he played. ",
he was supposed to be an alternate/injury insurance and played if I am not mistaken minimum mins most of the games.
Brady T, if I remember, then was unavailable and Chris had to play more mins for like2 games.
He looked like the old Chris when he scored a G on a burst of speed, but yeah, he played, but that exception aside, he coasted at less than full effort most of his mins

 

[nsvoyageurs]

we can't do this. we're the rangers. we need to try and win every year.

This is the mentality that has gotten the Rangers into the organizational mess their in now.

 

[kovazub94]

I think the KHL didnt care about his "behavioral issues" and more the fact that he can't/won't actually play defense.

It was both. Well documented that he head butted with the coaching staff.

 

[IDvsEGO]

It was both. Well documented that he head butted with the coaching staff.

That can mean either.

And I don’t even care why he’s out of the khl. The point was about why he’s not on the rangers, nothing more, nothing less.

His actions after that are just validation.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Habs with the HUGE win on the road vs Fla!

 

[RangerBoy]

Gorton never should have acquired Tony in the first place. The guy had trouble written all over him.

Forgot to mention Doug Armstrong mentioned Jimmy Snuggerud as another young player. Armstrong mentioned being in Fargo, North Dakota when UMASS upset Minnesota. Armstrong spoke with the player after the game. The plan was to turn pro after the junior season. Go back to school to get your stuff together and be ready for Monday morning to skate with the Blues. You can see the Blues team beginning to take shape. They need to change up their D. They are well positioned to make a Brady Tkachuk trade if that day comes in the next few seasons.



The Rangers are haphazardly put together. No real plan. The Rangers operate under a caste system. The veteran players run the team. The scary part is reading the Rangers are going back to the free agent pool in 2026. That strategy has really worked.

 

[Slaydagnar]

this is so embarrassing

It’s spot on!

 

[RangerBoy]

Habs with the HUGE win on the road vs Fla!

Go Habs.

 

[leetch99]

We had Trouba to do that, and it didn't work out all that well. If we need someone to hit people and take bad penalties, we have Rempe.

As a player, I'm not totally against Zadorov, but I don't think he moves the needle enough to make it worth trading for him. Boston will want something of value back and I'm not really inclined to give up futures for another 30+ player with 5 years left on his contract.

To fit him, we'd have to move someone else. If we are going to redistribute that cap space, I'd like it to be for someone younger. We need to start transitioning to the next core. We aren't doing that by adding older players on long-term deals.

Legitimately top 3 dumbest player in the league.

In front of or behind K'A Miller ? Easily enough could be either or.

 

[Slaydagnar]

so we're just rewriting history now?

ADA had literally been warned. One more incident and you're gone. Guess what. De'Angelo forced Gorton's hand. One more thing literally means One more thing.

That game, he was -4. He played shit defense.
Georgiev (our backup) was not amazing.
He made a bad play in OT.

ADA mouthed off to the backup goalie after the game.

Georgiev might not have been everyones favorite ranger, but holy shit. Unless you play a perfect game, you do not mouth off to a teammate.

The lockroom was not ok with De'Angelo. Throwing one player under the bus is the anthesis of a hockey team.


Let’s also not pretend that De'Angelo had only one strike against him. He was on his 3rd team before he was 22. This was not some out of the blue thing for De'Angelo, and he likely assumed that because he had just signed a deal that wasn't league minimum he was somehow safe/comfortable.

so we're just rewriting history now?

ADA had literally been warned. One more incident and you're gone. Guess what. De'Angelo forced Gorton's hand. One more thing literally means One more thing.

That game, he was -4. He played shit defense.
Georgiev (our backup) was not amazing.
He made a bad play in OT.

ADA mouthed off to the backup goalie after the game.

Georgiev might not have been everyones favorite ranger, but holy shit. Unless you play a perfect game, you do not mouth off to a teammate.

The lockroom was not ok with De'Angelo. Throwing one player under the bus is the anthesis of a hockey team.


Lets also not pretend that De'Angelo had only one strike against him. He was on his 3rd team before he was 22. This was not some out of the blue thing for De'Angelo, and he likely assumed that because he had just signed a deal that wasn't league minimum he was somehow safe/comfortable.

Dolan’s politics are the foundation of this team’s unrelenting history of failure.
Rangers will continue to fail until he’s gone.

 

[leetch99]

Two NHL teams and f***ing Russia paid for him to go the f*** away.

He’s a talented guy but he’s never been able to keep his head which is unfortunate because he was on his way to being legitimately very good player in this league.

The classic..... all the tools and no toolbox player. Talent oozed....what he could have been !!!

 

[Machinehead]

One thing I don't like is that we always get into this binary of "well we don't wanna be Buffalo and they suck because they rebuilt, but we can't be Edmonton, they rebuilt to get all that elite talent, and we can't do that" and we end up just talking in circles.

Odds are, we're probably not gonna be Buffalo, and we're also not gonna be one of these teams like Edmonton that ran into Gretzky and Lemieux part 2 because they just happened to.

Why can't we be Dallas? They never tore it down but they keep finding elite players because they have the right infrastructure in place. They have a franchise defenseman in Heiskanen, and then they developed another f***ing one in Harley.

Meanwhile what are we doing? We got Adam Fox and went "that's it." We just resigned ourselves to the other five guys being nobodies. We drafted EJ Emery to be a safe stay at home guy. We committed to Borgen to be a safe stay at home piece. It wasn't we tried and it didn't pan out -- that you could sell me on. We resigned to it. Adam Fox is our defenseman. That's it. We're not even gonna try.

I don't care what anybody says, you absolutely cannot convince me that they're not just locking into Miller, Soucy, and Borgen as the guys they're going to war with.

The Rangers never have top players because they just accept not having top players.

Dallas has problems, I'll grant you that. They're not the best team in the West. Their top guys aren't Edmonton or Colorado's top guys. I'll believe Hintz is a Cup-winning 1C when I see it. Rantanen is a flawed star player that shook loose and I'm wary of the ones that shake loose.

But you know what, they're not torture to watch. They'll go into the playoffs with a chance and a good goaltender, and hopefully you get the RNG to go your way. That's what we've been telling ourselves we've been doing but we're not close enough to even do that.

Again, you could sell me on "look, the true upper echelon is hard to come by and not everyone gets McDavid, Mackinnon, etc. which takes some luck." That's probably the boat Dallas is in but I would trade places with them in a heartbeat. They have a decent shot at it and they're going to do what they can to augment what they have.

What are we doing? The reason I rail on the Miller trade so much is because he's a flawed, aging 'top center' that we're papering over the hole with because "ah well, we're never gonna have one." And then we'll take another Othmann at the draft who is "for sure a third liner!" and just accept that we don't have it. Meanwhile, Dallas will take some f***ing guy 25th overall or whatever the f*** and he's a PPG player before he's 21.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

One thing I don't like is that we always get into this binary of "well we don't wanna be Buffalo and they suck because they rebuilt, but we can't be Edmonton, they rebuilt to get all that elite talent, and we can't do that" and we end up just talking in circles.

Odds are, we're probably not gonna be Buffalo, and we're also not gonna be one of these teams like Edmonton that ran into Gretzky and Lemieux part 2 because they just happened to.

Why can't we be Dallas? They never tore it down but they keep finding elite players because they have the right infrastructure in place. They have a franchise defenseman in Heiskanen, and then they developed another f***ing one in Harley.

Meanwhile what are we doing? We got Adam Fox and went "that's it." We just resigned ourselves to the other five guys being nobodies. We drafted EJ Emery to be a safe stay at home guy. We committed to Borgen to be a safe stay at home piece. It wasn't we tried and it didn't pan out -- that you could sell me on. We resigned to it. Adam Fox is our defenseman. That's it. We're not even gonna try.

I don't care what anybody says, you absolutely cannot convince me that they're not just locking into Miller, Soucy, and Borgen as the guys they're going to war with.

The Rangers never have top players because they just accept not having top players.

Dallas has problems, I'll grant you that. They're not the best team in the West. Their top guys aren't Edmonton or Colorado's top guys. I'll believe Hintz is a Cup-winning 1C when I see it. Rantanen is a flawed star player that shook loose and I'm wary of the ones that shake loose.

But you know what, they're not torture to watch. They'll go into the playoffs with a chance and a good goaltender, and hopefully you get the RNG to go your way. That's what we've been telling ourselves we've been doing but we're not close enough to even do that.

Again, you could sell me on "look, the true upper echelon is hard to come by and not everyone gets McDavid, Mackinnon, etc. which takes some luck." That's probably the boat Dallas is in but I would trade places with them in a heartbeat. They have a decent shot at it and they're going to do what they can to augment what they have.

What are we doing? The reason I rail on the Miller trade so much is because he's a flawed, aging 'top center' that we're papering over the hole with because "ah well, we're never gonna have one." And then we'll take another Othmann at the draft who is "for sure a third liner!" and just accept that we don't have it. Meanwhile, Dallas will take some f***ing guy 25th overall or whatever the f*** and he's a PPG player before he's 21.

I would do unspeakable things for the Rangers to have a scouting and development program like Dallas. Awful, unspeakable things.

 

[haohmaru]

It is not word salad just b'c you disagree.
It IS "sanctimonious hypocrisy" by you. You continue to deride CK when lack of production is directly due to injury

As to "The evidence, however, is clear that Kreider played in a completely optional tournament that, if he were indeed seriously injured, would've been in the Ranger's (and Krieder's) best interest not to play. And he played. ",
he was supposed to be an alternate/injury insurance and played if I am not mistaken minimum mins most of the games.
Brady T, if I remember, then was unavailable and Chris had to play more mins for like2 games.
He looked like the old Chris when he scored a G on a burst of speed, but yeah, he played, but that exception aside, he coasted at less than full effort most of his mins

He played at his own discretion and, likely, not in the his own best interests or the interests of the club. I realize it doesn't suit your narrative but it most certainly IS what happened.

I've never said his injury didn't contribute to his down season, it most obviously has. That doesn't change the fact that your conjecture that he was "forced to play" and is is "heroic" is completely baseless speculation for the former and hyperbole for the latter.

The whole team has underperformed the whole year. Kreider is among the most disappointing in that group.

 

[GAGLine]

One thing I don't like is that we always get into this binary of "well we don't wanna be Buffalo and they suck because they rebuilt, but we can't be Edmonton, they rebuilt to get all that elite talent, and we can't do that" and we end up just talking in circles.

Odds are, we're probably not gonna be Buffalo, and we're also not gonna be one of these teams like Edmonton that ran into Gretzky and Lemieux part 2 because they just happened to.

Why can't we be Dallas? They never tore it down but they keep finding elite players because they have the right infrastructure in place. They have a franchise defenseman in Heiskanen, and then they developed another f***ing one in Harley.

Meanwhile what are we doing? We got Adam Fox and went "that's it." We just resigned ourselves to the other five guys being nobodies. We drafted EJ Emery to be a safe stay at home guy. We committed to Borgen to be a safe stay at home piece. It wasn't we tried and it didn't pan out -- that you could sell me on. We resigned to it. Adam Fox is our defenseman. That's it. We're not even gonna try.

I don't care what anybody says, you absolutely cannot convince me that they're not just locking into Miller, Soucy, and Borgen as the guys they're going to war with.

The Rangers never have top players because they just accept not having top players.

Dallas has problems, I'll grant you that. They're not the best team in the West. Their top guys aren't Edmonton or Colorado's top guys. I'll believe Hintz is a Cup-winning 1C when I see it. Rantanen is a flawed star player that shook loose and I'm wary of the ones that shake loose.

But you know what, they're not torture to watch. They'll go into the playoffs with a chance and a good goaltender, and hopefully you get the RNG to go your way. That's what we've been telling ourselves we've been doing but we're not close enough to even do that.

Again, you could sell me on "look, the true upper echelon is hard to come by and not everyone gets McDavid, Mackinnon, etc. which takes some luck." That's probably the boat Dallas is in but I would trade places with them in a heartbeat. They have a decent shot at it and they're going to do what they can to augment what they have.

What are we doing? The reason I rail on the Miller trade so much is because he's a flawed, aging 'top center' that we're papering over the hole with because "ah well, we're never gonna have one." And then we'll take another Othmann at the draft who is "for sure a third liner!" and just accept that we don't have it. Meanwhile, Dallas will take some f***ing guy 25th overall or whatever the f*** and he's a PPG player before he's 21.

Edmonton missed the playoffs for a very long time, wasting a bunch of high picks, before they got to where they are. Vegas built a team out of spare parts and won a cup.

At the end of the day, smart decisions are what matter most. We don't make nearly enough of them. Is our scouting that much worse? Are our GMs and coaches that much worse? We've gone through different iterations on all of them and still can't get over the hump.

I've said before that I think our biggest issue is a lack of patience, but maybe it's really a lack of vision. What kind of team do we want to have? Over the last 7 years, we've had a mix bag of players. Our top 6 constantly reverts to playing east/west while our bottom 6 plays more north/south. It's no wonder we have so much trouble finding lines that work.

Every time we change the GM or coaching staff, the vision changes. It wasn't that long ago we were a speed team, now we're one of the slowest in the league. The organization needs an identity. We need to have a vision for what we want the team to be and stick to it. If a GM or coach strays from that vision, fire him and bring in someone who aligns with our philosophy.

I don't really care what style we play. Just pick something and stick to it.

 

[Roo Returns]

Can trent frederic be a legit 3C?

He has overpaid and under producing written all over him unfortunately.

 

[Roo Returns]

Edmonton missed the playoffs for a very long time, wasting a bunch of high picks, before they got to where they are. Vegas built a team out of spare parts and won a cup.

At the end of the day, smart decisions are what matter most. We don't make nearly enough of them. Is our scouting that much worse? Are our GMs and coaches that much worse? We've gone through different iterations on all of them and still can't get over the hump.

I've said before that I think our biggest issue is a lack of patience, but maybe it's really a lack of vision. What kind of team do we want to have? Over the last 7 years, we've had a mix bag of players. Our top 6 constantly reverts to playing east/west while our bottom 6 plays more north/south. It's no wonder we have so much trouble finding lines that work.

Every time we change the GM or coaching staff, the vision changes. It wasn't that long ago we were a speed team, now we're one of the slowest in the league. The organization needs an identity. We need to have a vision for what we want the team to be and stick to it. If a GM or coach strays from that vision, fire him and bring in someone who aligns with our philosophy.

I don't really care what style we play. Just pick something and stick to it.

That's the issue, Gordie Clark, Gorton/Bobrov, Drury/Lilley all have very different visions and draft strategies.

Other than Perrault, Drury has drafted a bunch of meat and potatoes depth guys. Some may overachieve and become 2nd liners, but that's the exception. They need to draft some high skill guys especially this year with all the extra picks, otherwise we're back to the Torts version of this team.

 

[mrmovies779]

I would do unspeakable things for the Rangers to have a scouting and development program like Dallas. Awful, unspeakable things.

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[NYR Viper]

That's the issue, Gordie Clark, Gorton/Bobrov, Drury/Lilley all have very different visions and draft strategies.

Other than Perrault, Drury has drafted a bunch of meat and potatoes depth guys. Some may overachieve and become 2nd liners, but that's the exception. They need to draft some high skill guys especially this year with all the extra picks, otherwise we're back to the Torts version of this team.

In fairness he hasn’t had a lot of picks to work with and their development of some of these depth guys has been pretty impressive compared to where it was 5-7 years ago.