Speculation: Roster Building thread: Part XIX (Thanks, Sam)

[pld459666]

im guessing center in name only

Thanks

 

[effen]

I think we're getting over our skis if we're criticizing players doing things other than hockey on their time off. None of that shit matters outside of like OBJ going to Miami to party on a boat right before a playoff game. Anything in the summer, give me a break. Nonsense.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I believe you.

What I cannot understand is why he's still playing if it's that bad.

I can't speak to the exact reasons, I'm not privy to that. It's some combination of 1) hockey culture (players being expected to fight through pain), 2) player pride, 3) the team floundering so feeling like he must do whatever he can to help, and not to be forgotten 4) a completely broken relationship between Kreids and Drury to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if he's playing out of spite, or has some other motivation to keep pushing himself beyond reason.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't expect anyone to believe me, but I am connected with Chris in real life.

Never said that you were or weren't. I asked for specifics as to whats going on.

Tough or not (and I know hockey players play through shit that they shouldn't and it's dumb that they're lionized for it) we would have to have the most incompetent medical staff on the planet if they're allowing him to play through a "serious" back injury.

We're talking long term impacts that become permanently life altering and potentially career ending and at that point it's no longer the player's call to make.

Plus the longest stretch of time he's missed this year was the 2 week IR stint that he just completed and that was for something completely unrelated (allegedly.)

 

[Mac n Gs]

Carle would be a f***ing slam dunk. He's an excellent coach who has won at multiple levels and actually knows how to run a bench and game plan for his opponents.

That said, I don't think he'd come here. He's very, very, very happy at Denver and while I know that they can offer him a f*** load of cash and everyone basically has a price, he isn't as driven by the dollar as some other guys who have made the jump from NCAA to pro. Seems like a seamless transition for him to take over in Colorado after Bednar gets axed (probably after they fall short again this year) if he's going to make the jump at all.

Plus I think you'd basically have to give him legitimate roster management input beyond setting a line up.

I think that aspect of input on roster management would be worth considering given his track record of identifying, recruiting, and developing talent at Denver. He obviously has the USA Hockey connections coaching the last two WJC teams, and it probably helps the Rangers that John Vanbiesbrouck is the GM for the WJC teams and the director of hockey for USA Hockey. The connection is there.

I don’t think this needs to be a wholesale rebuild because we do have good pieces. The organizational structure to put forth a consistent, modern product is what’s been sorely lacking.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Never said that you were or weren't. I asked for specifics as to whats going on.

Tough or not (and I know hockey players play through shit that they shouldn't and it's dumb that they're lionized for it) we would have to have the most incompetent medical staff on the planet if they're allowing him to play through a "serious" back injury.

We're talking long term impacts that become permanently life altering and potentially career ending and at that point it's no longer the player's call to make.

Plus the longest stretch of time he's missed this year was the 2 week IR stint that he just completed and that was for something completely unrelated (allegedly.)

I don't know the specifics of exactly what's wrong, I've never been told that exactly and that kind of stuff stays close to the chest. I imagine - or at least hope - it's not life-altering. But even something as seemingly simple as persistent back spasms can drastically alter your ability to move around in day-to-day life, let alone when playing a sport at the pro level. Playing through that is no joke, in terms of pain and impact to your game.

Hell, on a personal level, I've been dealing with a herniated disc in my neck for the past 12 months and it has caused havoc on my ability to sleep, work (at a desk job), do simple tasks like dishes or clean the house, etc. "Serious back issue" in this case doesn't mean he has a broken back, it just means he's dealing with a lot of pain.

EDIT: re: your last sentence, the "allegedly" is the key word there

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't know the specifics of exactly what's wrong, I've never been told that exactly and that kind of stuff stays close to the chest. I imagine - or at least hope - it's not life-altering. But even something as seemingly simple as persistent back spasms can drastically alter your ability to move around in day-to-day life, let alone when playing a sport at the pro level. Playing through that is no joke, in terms of pain and impact to your game.

Hell, on a personal level, I've been dealing with a herniated disc in my neck for the past 12 months and it has caused havoc on my ability to sleep, work (at a desk job), do simple tasks like dishes or clean the house, etc. "Serious back issue" in this case doesn't mean he has a broken back, it just means he's dealing with a lot of pain.

EDIT: re: your last sentence, the "allegedly" is the key word there

Ha I threw in the allegedly because it came from the NYR. I've been watching long enough to know that they aren't always upfront with whats going on (except when it came to Chytil.)

On Kreider, I have zero doubt he's been dealing with discomfort this season. I also have major doubts it's THAT bad.

If you've been dealing with a herniated disc you know how much it hurts to just exist (I hope you haven't had to crawl up and down the stairs.) When I hear the word "serious" thats where my mind goes to and I think we can almost certainly rule that out for a multitude of reasons.

He's still able to book it up ice at 24+ MPH when he wants to. You aren't doing that with a back that is super jacked up.

It's likely a combo of things like being hurt, not being in a good mental space and just age catching up to him. Post IR stint he doesn't even look injured to me, just checked out.

That said, I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he bounces back next year and pots 30+ again.

 

[UnparalledPark]

I think we all have our own individual narratives when it comes to what we want from the team, but I do think that pretty much everyone on here agrees that significant changes are needed in some shape or another. The way this season unfolded is why I was so adamantly against Drury hiring Laviolette in the first place, and it was so predictable after his latest stint in Washington. He had an aging core with veterans that tuned him out and didn't want to play his style of play. Why did Drury suddenly think that would be different here when we had the same exact issues with Gallant. MacLellan and Patrick then bring in a younger coach in Carberry, and he has that team turned around in a year; a big offseason of smart moves made by Patrick has them taking another step and they're on their way to a President's Trophy. Is there a bit of a 2023 Seattle vibe to them where every single thing is going right? Yeah, absolutely, but I think they've put enough good pieces in place that when they regress back to the mean a bit it won't be too far of a drop off.

For the Rangers, I don't really see how Drury turns this around, assuming he's still the one that gets the chance to do so. I still think there's organizational failures from top-to-bottom when it comes to analyzing how to play hockey in the modern era, and that really shouldn't be the case for one of the wealthiest organizations in the league. I said this almost two years ago now, but Drury really didn't do enough to replace the people from the Gorton era and reshape the front office. I honestly don't know where else he goes from here.

There's a few situations around the league where I wonder if we could get lucky, i.e., Ryan Smith wanting to move on from Bill Armstrong and co and bring in his own guys. If they let Armstrong/Tourigny go, I'd hire both in a heartbeat. The other intriguing idea was mentioned by Seravalli yesterday when discussing an NHL team David Carle. I'd be all for a situation where Drury hires Carle and works with him to build a team in his vision for how they want to play hockey. Denver has been unreal under him, and I love that he's under the Jim Montgomery coaching tree; Drury should've fired Laviolette and hired Montgomery the second Boston let him go.

I like the Woodcroft idea, but I also like the idea of hiring Carle and letting him stick for 5 years to actually build something here. They'll get good pieces moving away from some of the guys with term that are still here. Defer the 2025 pick unless it magically becomes top-4 and take the few steps back to regroup from 2026-28. They do have some good young pieces in the pipeline, but they're missing the dynamic skill up front and from the backend. Nothing is gonna change here unless they change the process. Drury already missed the boat once not doing this two years ago. He can't do it again. If he wont, he shouldn't get the chance to make the same mistakes.

Some good stuff. Last year the Rangers won the Presidents cup. You seem to think that was a bad thing because you wanted to make even more changes than the 40% roster turnover that Drury engineered. Yet you think the Caps winning the Presidents cup is a good thing. Just think, if there were no changes made to last years roster, we would probably be 2nd or 3rd in the Metro now. Just about every team in the Eastt is worse this year. Even with the same team, we would have a decent chance of making the final 4 again. Possibly final 2. I might be crazy, but I enjoyed winning 10 playoff games last year. I wish I had a chance to do the same this year. You say almost everyone believes significant changes need to be made. Well they were made. How’d that go?

 

[UnparalledPark]

You might be right, but I’d just chalk it up to Neanderthal thinking by an “old boys club” coach. If my player is capable of playing, he will play. Period.

The fact that Cuylle isn’t getting the PP or 6-on-5 chances instead of Kreids is ludicrous. He’s earned some of those looks, and Kreids - as much as I love him - is flat out ineffective in his current state.

I agree about Cuylle. I guess I just figured CK had a back problem that really couldn’t get much worse by playing, and begged to stay in the lineup.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Ha I threw in the allegedly because it came from the NYR. I've been watching long enough to know that they aren't always upfront with whats going on (except when it came to Chytil.)

On Kreider, I have zero doubt he's been dealing with discomfort this season. I also have major doubts it's THAT bad.

If you've been dealing with a herniated disc you know how much it hurts to just exist (I hope you haven't had to crawl up and down the stairs.) When I hear the word "serious" thats where my mind goes to and I think we can almost certainly rule that out for a multitude of reasons.

He's still able to book it up ice at 24+ MPH when he wants to. You aren't doing that with a back that is super jacked up.

It's likely a combo of things like being hurt, not being in a good mental space and just age catching up to him. Post IR stint he doesn't even look injured to me, just checked out.

That said, I also wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he bounces back next year and pots 30+ again.

Appreciate the response and the post. Agree to disagree on the severity of his pain, I’m confident he’s pretty darn hampered in what he can do on the ice. Regardless, there’s no question he’s been a shell of himself this year and that’s a big reason the team is where it is right now.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I agree about Cuylle. I guess I just figured CK had a back problem that really couldn’t get much worse by playing, and begged to stay in the lineup.

You don’t have to do much begging as a player. Your coach asks if you can go, you say yes, and that’s that . And Lavi hasn’t held his top players accountable at all this season, so they’re still getting top minutes.

 

[UnparalledPark]

now ask yourself if that is worth $6.5M...

likely, the answer is no.

I agree no. Of course that is the answer the other 31 teams would give as well.

 

[UnparalledPark]

I don't expect anyone to believe me, but I am connected with Chris in real life.

Well, if you get the bern seal of approval, I believe!

 

[Mandar]

I don't know the specifics of exactly what's wrong, I've never been told that exactly and that kind of stuff stays close to the chest. I imagine - or at least hope - it's not life-altering. But even something as seemingly simple as persistent back spasms can drastically alter your ability to move around in day-to-day life, let alone when playing a sport at the pro level. Playing through that is no joke, in terms of pain and impact to your game.

Hell, on a personal level, I've been dealing with a herniated disc in my neck for the past 12 months and it has caused havoc on my ability to sleep, work (at a desk job), do simple tasks like dishes or clean the house, etc. "Serious back issue" in this case doesn't mean he has a broken back, it just means he's dealing with a lot of pain.

EDIT: re: your last sentence, the "allegedly" is the key word there

Didnt he also have that clotting issue in his arm years back? Hope its not something that rears it ugly head again like that.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Didnt he also have that clotting issue in his arm years back? Hope its not something that rears it ugly head again like that.

He did. I haven’t heard anything to indicate that’s been an issue since, but

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

I can't speak to the exact reasons, I'm not privy to that. It's some combination of 1) hockey culture (players being expected to fight through pain), 2) player pride, 3) the team floundering so feeling like he must do whatever he can to help, and not to be forgotten 4) a completely broken relationship between Kreids and Drury to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if he's playing out of spite, or has some other motivation to keep pushing himself beyond reason.

I could totally believe what Kreider is going through is horrible. Chronic pain is beyond any humans comprehension

 

[TheTakedown]

I agree no. Of course that is the answer the other 31 teams would give as well.

potentially...

but with the rangers ability to retain salary there are options.

 

[lakeshirts37]

1-1 going into the 3rd. Go Bentley.

 

[Mandar]

Players should have no lives but hockey. No opinions, endorsements, hobbies, friends, family, loved ones, pets, parents, sisters, brothers, phones, tablets, tvs, transistor radios, and thoughts. Anything other than winning with teammates (BUT THOSE TEAMMATES BETTER NOT BE FRIENDS!), is a bad look. Country club. Soft. Beta. Low T. Receding hairline. Belly fat. Don't need it. Don't want it. Yell at someone. Hit someone.

Outstanding! No 8-track tapes either!

 

[lakeshirts37]

The optics are bad. It couldn't wait until May?

It doesnt matter at all. Its not that big.

 

[lakeshirts37]

I'm 32. Sue me for being annoyed that multi-millionaires cant focus on their day job for a full season when a normal person cant afford to live.

This is an insane take lol

 

[Mac n Gs]

Some good stuff. Last year the Rangers won the Presidents cup. You seem to think that was a bad thing because you wanted to make even more changes than the 40% roster turnover that Drury engineered. Yet you think the Caps winning the Presidents cup is a good thing. Just think, if there were no changes made to last years roster, we would probably be 2nd or 3rd in the Metro now. Just about every team in the Eastt is worse this year. Even with the same team, we would have a decent chance of making the final 4 again. Possibly final 2. I might be crazy, but I enjoyed winning 10 playoff games last year. I wish I had a chance to do the same this year. You say almost everyone believes significant changes need to be made. Well they were made. How’d that go?

Maybe I'm misreading the tone, but I'll ignore the snark in favor of having an honest discussion. I think you might need to go back and re-read what I wrote because nowhere did I say that the Rangers winning the President's Trophy last year was a bad thing. I was referring to comments that I made before Drury ever even hired Laviolette about what I thought would happen, and it unfolded similarly to what I predicted. It's very hard to ignore the parallels to what happened in Washington with Laviolette and what's happening here. I think the Capitals did a good job two years ago in hiring a good coach, one that I was interested in hiring, who has helped turn them around after 3 straight years of failures and unmet expectations. They weren't expected to be a playoff team last year, and he helped them overachieve in that regard. This year, Chris Patrick did an incredible job flipping Darcy Kuemper, Nick Jensen, and a few mid-round picks into Pierre-Luc Dubois, Logan Thompson, and Jakob Chychrun. It's not hindsight to say that those were great moves. We discussed that as they were happening in the summer. What I was saying regarding to this year for the Capitals is that they have had basically everything go there way, similar to the 2023 Kraken. Some of it probably isn't sustainable, but they've been playing very good hockey all year, and I think that roster has taken the right steps to have relatively sustained success. We can agree to disagree on returning the same team leading to a 2nd or 3rd spot in the division for some of the reasons I'll touch on below related to your roster turnover comment.

Related to the roster turnover, I think the 40% roster turnover thing is a bit misleading. It's true in absolute value, but the majority of that is marginal pieces from a value perspective and guys on expiring deals. I don't think we need to rehash the Goodrow and Trouba situations, but to me, those were player being significantly overpaid for the value they provided to the team. Goodrow is one of the worst NHL players all season in terms of on-ice impact. Trouba was a very overpaid 2nd pairing dman at best. Good PKer, but his game was deteriorating and he was becoming a detriment at 5v5. He's still having those same issues in Anaheim, and Drury did well to get rid of the cap hit full boat. So yes, he got rid of Goodrow for nothing and replaced him with Sam Carrick. That's been a good move, but it's still for your 4th line center. Moving the rentals just made sense with where we were in the standings and the lack of overall assets in the organization. Lindgren was also exhibiting significant declines in play and being played in a role way above his skill level. Vesey was in and out of the lineup and was a 4th liner. Reilly Smith was mainly a 3rd line guy here. These are not really significant pieces that are difficult to replace.

The types of moves I'm talking about and want to see this summer are related to the top-end of the lineup. We've had the same guys in key positions for 6+ years now across different contention windows, and they haven't been able to get it done. I'm not discrediting the playoff success, but they haven't won a Cup; I'm not saying I haven't enjoyed the wins either. Removing the sentimentality aside, these guys are getting older, still have term, and are likely reaching the end of being able to get good trade value for them. Drury already took one big swing with this making the JT Miller trade. I personally don't think that's the type of player we should've targeted for a Chytil, Mancini, and a 1st package. Good player, but he was turning 32 and still has 5 years left at $8M. Could a different version of that trade have been made for someone like a Dylan Cozens where it didn't include a first? Maybe you expand it into a bigger deal where you get Cozens and Peterka?

I just think it's time for larger scale changes. I don't mean eating around the edges and calling it a day. I don't think it's that inflammatory of a thought to suggest so, and it's consistent with stuff I've been saying since Gallant was here.

 

[bernmeister]

Well, if you get the bern seal of approval, I believe!

bern gives his seal of approval to those who speak the truth

on the subject of CK you both so far deserve it

I could totally believe what Kreider is going through is horrible. Chronic pain is beyond any humans comprehension

And yet, some feel the need to pretend as if it is not a real thing, when to some extent, we can reasonably conclude it is.

Then when I call these peeps out for being hypocrites, I get flack.
Wait til later, I'm busy now

 

[Siddi]

You are saying much better, but it's just not the case. I think Z is a good player, but I think it's over in NY for him and a few others.

You arent holding Trocheck responsible. You are flat out saying why do we hate Z when Trocheck is worse? Trocheck is OBJECTIVELY not worse. He is not a "3C scrub". He has been a great player in this league for years. Just like Z and it seems like Trocheck might still be able to get it done at 5v5 better then Z going forward. He plays with more pace, more physicality, goes to the net more and is just as good in his own end. He is also 1 of the 4 main PK players on what is the only good aspect of our team, the PK.

Trocheck has had a down year along with a down team. Z has been monumentaly bad and if it wasnt for a 10-15 game burst, he would have 35 points right now.

Trocheck has been excellent as a Ranger. 3 straight 20 goal 50 point season playing all situations. Mika largely has been one too. People let their personal biases get in the way of the fact that both guys are on the back nine of their career. If there is a trade out there that works for the Rangers and makes us young and more cap flexibile (ideally both), id trade both guys and not think twice. Same with Panarin and Kreider.

We have now reached the stage where we regard Trocheck and Zibanejads careers as similar.

Trocheck did not have a down year this season. This is who he always been. A career average 50 point player.

This place is getting crazier by the day.

 

[Kocur Dill]

It's been clear to me after Trouba's first season here that Hockey was always his second priority. His "brand" was his first, which just so happened to revolve around his city life, which is where his wife happened to work...

There's just a lot there with Trouba that screams hockey is not actually important... talk about a locker room cancer

Im actually starting to belive Red Baronson was the Hockey Whisperer.

He made so many mediocure NHL players, NCAA stars with hyped reputations.

Other than Pacioretty. Who has been the player they were projected to be? Nieves, Hageline, Montoya, Trouba... He has a penchant for making Captains, high draft picks that turn into NHL role players. And somehow NYR takes the bait more oft than should.

Convinced STL to take Jack Johnson #1oa.

Hell, maybe NYR should offer him the HC job since he can turn coal into gold as it seems.