Speculation: Roster Building thread: Part XIX (Thanks, Sam)

[egelband]

The offseason retool starts with Kreider. In the summer the Rangers will likely find a deal for him to go somewhere, and if the team is on his NTC, the rangers will do what Tampa Bay did to McD, and what they did to Trouba in December. Threaten him with waivers. Because of NMCs, Panarin and Mika are likely here next year. Id work hard to move Panarin and would retain for a year. The rangers will be pretty good next year if they get another defenseman and just play their kids more. Igor is showing why he got paid. God knows what they do with the coach. I doubt Drury is getting fired.

My assumption is that Kreider is playing ball and a trade will happen this summer. I also think Mika stays as RW. The Panarin situation is interesting but i can’t imagine he gets traded. He’s not ideal but he’s still by and far the rangers most skilled player. Very hard to replace that.

 

[egelband]

Miller can play with Fox.

I used to believe this but I’ve lost faith in him. Would prefer they move him at this point. Don’t think it’s going to click for him without a change of scenery.

 

[MrAlmost]

Miller is the exact defenseman that should play with Fox. Fox is slower, but smart, a good passer and calming with the puck. Miller can skate and shoot, defends we'll enough, if a bit squirrelly at times. They compliment each other well. They play well every time they get the chance and consistently out possess and out chance their opponents. Miller is the exact top pairing compliment d we are looking for but refuse to use.

Borgen is Kevin Klein. Like exactly. Thats great. If he was on the 3rd pair.

Jones can skate and pass. He might be best suited as that secret 3rd pairing offensive d.

Everyone else who cares. You have this right now.

Miller-Fox
TBD-TBD
Jones-Borgen
Vaak

We need a whole middle pair. And that means we need a number 2. No Miller is not the number 2. Thats not how it works. You need an anchor for pair 1, a number 1(Fox), who has a complimentary partner(Miller).

Then you need an anchor for pair 2 with a complimentary partner.

Can the Rangers find one? I only see 2 on the FA list. Chychrun and Ekblad. Honestly, you likely want both. Haha

Also, that was a good article. Basically what we say here a lot but written out very well.

 

[eco's bones]

My assumption is that Kreider is playing ball and a trade will happen this summer. I also think Mika stays as RW. The Panarin situation is interesting but i can’t imagine he gets traded. He’s not ideal but he’s still by and far the rangers most skilled player. Very hard to replace that.

Guys who can year in year out put up 90 point + seasons don't grow on trees. He's a legit 1st line NHL player. Panarin makes his share (sometimes more than his fair share) of braindead plays but he's a player that's going to get his points and if we need a goal late in a game he's the guy by a fair amount who is most likely to be in on it if it's going to happen at all.

I can't say what's going to happen with him going into his contract year though. It wouldn't shock me at all though if the Rangers try to re up him at least with something of a discount and shorter term. The cap has been projected to go up in $8 mil increments to about $25 mil in the next 3 years over what it is now. We're going to spend it on somebody. Teams have been locking up a good many of the best would have been UFA's before they even get to free agency. If he goes somewhere else I think the Rangers will be looking to add a big time player to replace him. People might wish but it's not going to be Brady Tkachuk---Ottawa isn't going to move him.

 

[Kendo]

I get ya but dont overthink why other teams want him. He is big strong and can skate. He doesnt miss games due to injury. I think he's a guy you move at 24 and regret it when you see what he becomes at age 28. I think we need to have that view with a lot of guys on this team.

Borgen can be slotted down if Schneider pops. If Schneider stalls, he'll get a Borgen deal at that age and it's still fine. We "should" have a nice trio at RD for a while with one stud and two 4/5's.

We have a 2/3 LD in Miller, so we either need to get another Miller or someone better. Soucy/Jones/Vaaks is fine for the rest of this season and next, but unless someone really steps up, we need to add a LD by next deadline.

 

[eco's bones]

I used to believe this but I’ve lost faith in him. Would prefer they move him at this point. Don’t think it’s going to click for him without a change of scenery.

Other coaches we've had have wanted the man on man defensive system which can work okay I suppose if you have the right kind of personnel. We don't. We've tried this with other coaches before and we didn't have the right personnel then either. It's never worked for us in any kind of sustained way. It exacerbates players weaknesses. Put another way it makes their personal vulnerabilities worse. I don't know if we continue to want to fire coaching staffs every couple years but this might be the best reason to get rid of this one. I think Laviolette and Housley became too dependent on thinking that Sheshterkin was going to bail them out forever and ever whenever shit broke down and shit started breaking down a lot more this year.

A new coaching staff with a more zone approach should do wonders for Igor and help shield certain of our D from exposing the weaker parts of their particular games. Should help K'Andre too.

 

[Siddi]

You can bring up whatever alpha/beta nonsense you want, JT Miller has absolutely exacerbated every annoying habit this team has with the puck. Not only are the guys around him not correcting it -- he's doing it.

My problem with that whole discussion on grit, leadership, etc, etc, whatever you want to call it is not that it's not valid, but that we don't conceptualize it. What does it mean? What specifically do we do wrong and how is Miller a correcting force?

I can think of quite a few ways we don't play "hard" or play "right," and he feeds right into it. One big one is just dumping the puck in if there isn't a rush chance, and giving it a token gesture one-man forecheck, because this team absolutely refuses to create offense off the cycle. The guy that dumped it is never the one to keep his feet moving and disrupt like you'll see Florida do. He rims it around and peels away, and it's the next guy's problem. Miller does that all the time.

I'm waiting for somebody to explain to me what Miller does on the puck, that's tangible, that's a change from how this team plays. All I get is "he's JT Miller, he's alpha!" Not only is that meaningless to me, but building the team like that based on vibes is not going to solve anything!

Thank you! I am going crazy pulling my hair and yelling at the screen watching him play. Like is this why we brought him back? He is doing the same shit the other idiots have been doing all season.

The team was playing better hockey before he arrived.

 

[Siddi]

The way Miller played when he first got here was in stark contrast to the rest of the team. Unfortunately he’s powerless to overcome the rot that pervades this team so after a couple of weeks he was also assimilated and plays the RONGO WAY now.

He played hard for exactly 2 games and that was due to pure adrenaline being back in NYC.

And also, wasnt he supposed to be this culture changing alpha? Instead he is being cucked by betas like Mika, Kreider etc...

 

[Siddi]

The offseason retool starts with Kreider. In the summer the Rangers will likely find a deal for him to go somewhere, and if the team is on his NTC, the rangers will do what Tampa Bay did to McD, and what they did to Trouba in December. Threaten him with waivers. Because of NMCs, Panarin and Mika are likely here next year. Id work hard to move Panarin and would retain for a year. The rangers will be pretty good next year if they get another defenseman and just play their kids more. Igor is showing why he got paid. God knows what they do with the coach. I doubt Drury is getting fired.

I think Puckpedia had the details on Kreiders contract. Apparently there is a no waivers clause in his contract.

 

[RangerBoy]

I'd be thrilled if we traded K'Andre since his style of play drives me absolutely up the f***ing wall, but if you do you've got a long laundry list of 2 top 4 LHD to fill, as I've zero faith in a team with Soucy in it's top 4 to be a cup competitor.

Miller. Schneider. Miller. Schneider. Those guys aren't the real problem.

Fox doesn't drive you nuts? Fox fell down again in the first period of the Vancouver game when the Rangers had the puck in the neutral zone. People say the Rangers need a LHD to help Fox handle the toughest matchups. Only one problem. Fox can't handle the toughest matchups. Tough assignments against the opposing teams best players? April 1 is next Tuesday.

I was watching the Islanders and Devils games last night. Quinn Hughes and Zack Werenski were animals. 31:38 for Hughes. 33:44 for Werenski. 2 shots on goal. 5 shots missed. 2 shots blocked. A few times, Werenski barely missed hitting the net. He had Sorokin beat. 6 shots on goal for Hughes. 2 shots missed. Fox could never do that. Skate faster than the wind on a cold day in January and always leading the attack. Those guys are Brian Leetch in his prime. Fox would hurt himself. Fox looks awkward in everything he does.

The other guys haven't been good but Fox has been worse.

 

[RangerBoy]

Guys who can year in year out put up 90 point + seasons don't grow on trees. He's a legit 1st line NHL player. Panarin makes his share (sometimes more than his fair share) of braindead plays but he's a player that's going to get his points and if we need a goal late in a game he's the guy by a fair amount who is most likely to be in on it if it's going to happen at all.

I can't say what's going to happen with him going into his contract year though. It wouldn't shock me at all though if the Rangers try to re up him at least with something of a discount and shorter term. The cap has been projected to go up in $8 mil increments to about $25 mil in the next 3 years over what it is now. We're going to spend it on somebody. Teams have been locking up a good many of the best would have been UFA's before they even get to free agency. If he goes somewhere else I think the Rangers will be looking to add a big time player to replace him. People might wish but it's not going to be Brady Tkachuk---Ottawa isn't going to move him.

The only problem is the Rangers want to play north and south hockey. Do you really think Artemi wants to play north and south hockey? Get the pucks in deep. Chip in and chip it out. What's the point of having Panarin on the team when he doesn't play the type of hockey you want the team to play?

The Rangers are spinning their wheels.

Miller was targeted in a Jan. 31 trade because he brings elements this lineup otherwise lacks − "If I'm moving my feet and physically engaged, playing that north-south hockey, then I’m at my best," he said − and while there was an initial bump following his acquisition from Vancouver, he can't do it alone.

The current personnel doesn't match the preferred system, raising questions about why Chris Drury allowed it to get to this point.

This May will mark four years since he abruptly took over as team president and general manager, yet he had done very little to change the makeup of the roster until a series of on-the-fly moves in the last few months.

Consider that when he sent the notorious late-November memo to the NHL's other 31 GMs to open the trade floodgates, 18 of the 23 players on the roster had been signed or acquired by Drury's predecessor, Jeff Gorton. That's a shockingly small amount of turnover in that time frame.

Sticking with the status quo made sense for a while, especially after an unexpected run to the conference final in Gallant's first season, 2021-22. But Drury's mission statement from the time he ascended to the top chair was making the Rangers "a harder team to play against," with a staggering lack of progress to date in that department.

It's obvious he still wants to push the team in that direction, which led to the hiring of Gallant then Laviolette. These are old-school coaches who want to chip pucks behind opponents, hammer them on the forecheck and grind them down with speed and work ethic.

It's a winning formula that's stood the test of time, with just about every team that's won in recent memory achieving that desired blend of skill and snarl. Yet, the Rangers are so clearly imbalanced with players who prefer to hover around the perimeter and try to pass their way into the net − not to mention a dearth of hard-nosed defenders.

6 thoughts on NY Rangers: Why the personnel doesn't fit the system and much more

Peter Laviolette isn't the first coach to struggle with getting this Blueshirts' core to buy into a specific style of play.

www.lohud.com

The Rangers need significant change and that's not trading away the disappointing younger players.

 

[Drew4u]

You can bring up whatever alpha/beta nonsense you want, JT Miller has absolutely exacerbated every annoying habit this team has with the puck. Not only are the guys around him not correcting it -- he's doing it.

My problem with that whole discussion on grit, leadership, etc, etc, whatever you want to call it is not that it's not valid, but that we don't conceptualize it. What does it mean? What specifically do we do wrong and how is Miller a correcting force?

I can think of quite a few ways we don't play "hard" or play "right," and he feeds right into it. One big one is just dumping the puck in if there isn't a rush chance, and giving it a token gesture one-man forecheck, because this team absolutely refuses to create offense off the cycle. The guy that dumped it is never the one to keep his feet moving and disrupt like you'll see Florida do. He rims it around and peels away, and it's the next guy's problem. Miller does that all the time.

I'm waiting for somebody to explain to me what Miller does on the puck, that's tangible, that's a change from how this team plays. All I get is "he's JT Miller, he's alpha!" Not only is that meaningless to me, but building the team like that based on vibes is not going to solve anything!

Nobody is saying Jt Miller is making this team better because he's alpha what?

Have you ever played a competitive sport. You cannot dismiss intangibles like leadership that this team badly misses. Yes, Jt Miller has already had a positive affect on Zibanejad. Why? because he actually leads. Not only that but he's a guy that will bring the energy in the playoffs.

Like what is this "alpha huff huff" talk you're mentioning.

 

[Drew4u]

I don't know how you can watch guys like Panarin and Zibanejad play and think this team has a skill problem. Won the president's trophy last season and think that the players just all suddenly magically declined.

Clearly there's a locker room problem. Jt Miller won't fix that by himself but the team needs more guys like him. The skill gap in hockey at the highest level is very small, the majority of problems tend to be more locker room based.

 

[RangerBoy]

Would Panarin be interested in a Chicago return? He picked the Hawks in 2015 when he was a free agent. There were many teams interested in signing him to an ELC. He was very disappointed when the Hawks traded him to Columbus two years later. The Hawks are a different team right now than ten years ago. The Hawks need to make significant changes and add players. If the Hawks are willing to pay him, he could go.

Myles Garrett spent the week of the Super Bowl talking to everyone about his desire to win a Super Bowl and how important it was to have a QB. He wanted out of Cleveland. I saw him on Mina Kimes pod and she was mentioning teams to him. The Commanders with Jayden Daniels would be ideal. Rookie deal. I read people started saying Myles wasn't a good leader. He would be late for team events. A few weeks later, Garrett got nearly $100M of guaranteed money and he loves being a Brown. Everything is fine. The Browns don't have a QB unless they select one of the two top QB's in the draft. There is no guarantee with them either. Money can cure everything.

The Hawks give Panarin a big extension. He waives the NMC. He plays with Bedard. He loves Chicago. The Hawks are loaded with young players, prospects and picks. The Rangers clear the $$$$. The Rangers can build their roster with their type of Rangers players.

 

[McRanger92]

JT Miller has been back for 20 games and the culture isnt changed so time to declare this move another loss for the Rangers. Do you guys hear yourselves? Gee, I wonder why the organization has a problem with being patient and rushing things. It's the same faulty logic around wanting to deal Schneider and K'Andre and Laf and Fox. What do the next 5 years look like? Based on the moves they've made it looks like JT and Trocheck as the veteran leaders for a team increasingly led by its young homegrown players. Aka exactly what it should be.

JT is here to be a leader. The Rangers couldnt develop one during the rebuild and the veterans we paid didnt want to be the guy, so they gave it to meathead Trouba. It's not a "tuffnuss" or "alpha male" thing. Be mad at fan faves like Kreider and Panarin who couldnt be bothered to lead from the front. That's why JT is here. As others have pointed out, there's a reason he runs every huddle. Mika and Kreider are too busy checking the iPad to see why they flubbed their most reason scoring chance (one too many passes).

 

[Siddi]

JT Miller has been back for 20 games and the culture isnt changed so time to declare this move another loss for the Rangers. Do you guys hear yourselves? Gee, I wonder why the organization has a problem with being patient and rushing things. It's the same faulty logic around wanting to deal Schneider and K'Andre and Laf and Fox. What do the next 5 years look like? Based on the moves they've made it looks like JT and Trocheck as the veteran leaders for a team increasingly led by its young homegrown players. Aka exactly what it should be.

JT is here to be a leader. The Rangers couldnt develop one during the rebuild and the veterans we paid didnt want to be the guy, so they gave it to meathead Trouba. It's not a "tuffnuss" or "alpha male" thing. Be mad at fan faves like Kreider and Panarin who couldnt be bothered to lead from the front. That's why JT is here. As others have pointed out, there's a reason he runs every huddle. Mika and Kreider are too busy checking the iPad to see why they flubbed their most reason scoring chance (one too many passes).

I dont think anyone is saying that the trade in it self was a bad one. Him being Messier reincarnated because he supposedly is such a better player than our current vets and a great leader was a false narrative. He is lazy, refuse to backheck and takes stupid selfish penaltys. A perfect fit for this gutless team.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I'm all for getting rid of Panarin. The decision to sign him when they did was and still remains f***ing stupid and I'm just ready for his era to be over.

But they can't let the failed Panarin experience keep them from adding E-W players. Even if you have a N-S base, theres still room for those guys to exist within that ecosystem (and tbh, they're necessary.) There needs to be a level of buy in that you're just not getting from Panarin (or Kreider and Zibanejad for that matter) but even if you want to be a grindy, N-S "meat and potatoes" team, the puck has to be able to get up ice and into those dirty areas. The N-S guys aren’t generally good at getting the puck there.

I think they need to fire Lavi and hire a coach who is actually going to stress fundamentals and accountability. On that end is makes sense to move on from Panarin as well because his fundamentals are f***ing terrible. It’s an issue up and down the lineup but I think the other guys are way more coachable.

 

[Machinehead]

Nobody is saying Jt Miller is making this team better because he's alpha what?

Have you ever played a competitive sport. You cannot dismiss intangibles like leadership that this team badly misses. Yes, Jt Miller has already had a positive affect on Zibanejad. Why? because he actually leads. Not only that but he's a guy that will bring the energy in the playoffs.

Like what is this "alpha huff huff" talk you're mentioning.

Did you read anything I wrote?

Nobody is discounting leadership, but the leadership should demonstrate a tangible difference in how the team plays. That's literally what I posted.

JT Miller is a repeat of the same bad habits we already have. If he is seen as a leader, he's leading us in the wrong direction.

People talk about Zibanejad playing better and improving his habits. Ok, but JT Miller hasn't!! Miller is playing the same soft hockey we ripped Zibanejad for. So like, while I'm not saying that leadership doesn't exist, I find it hard to believe that JT told Zibanejad "hey you better play harder while I continue to aimlessly dump the puck in and play with my dick."

A ton of people are remarking about JT Miller's leadership, so I don't know what you're talking about there, and I have no idea what he says or does because I'm not in the room. All I know is he plays the same grabass, perimeter, stat-padding style our top forwards already played.

If he played a different brand of hockey, and everyone else was still a moron, then sure, it's early yet. He's not doing that. He's feeding right into it. That's the player he always was when he was here. Then he went to a team where he 1) finally started putting up points and 2) couldn't get along with anyone, and we just decided that's leadership somehow.

Have you ever played a competitive sport before? Surely you understand leading by example.

 

[Machinehead]

I dont think anyone is saying that the trade in it self was a bad one.

I am lol

 

[majordomo]

Did you read anything I wrote?

Nobody is discounting leadership, but the leadership should demonstrate a tangible difference in how the team plays. That's literally what I posted.

JT Miller is a repeat of the same bad habits we already have. If he is seen as a leader, he's leading us in the wrong direction.

People talk about Zibanejad playing better and improving his habits. Ok, but JT Miller hasn't!! Miller is playing the same soft hockey we ripped Zibanejad for. So like, while I'm not saying that leadership doesn't exist, I find it hard to believe that JT told Zibanejad "hey you better play harder while I continue to aimlessly dump the puck in and play with my dick."

A ton of people are remarking about JT Miller's leadership, so I don't know what you're talking about there, and I have no idea what he says or does because I'm not in the room. All I know is he plays the same grabass, perimeter, stat-padding style our top forwards already played.

If he played a different brand of hockey, and everyone else was still a moron, then sure, it's early yet. He's not doing that. He's feeding right into it. That's the player he always was when he was here. Then he went to a team where he 1) finally started putting up points and 2) couldn't get along with anyone, and we just decided that's leadership somehow.

Have you ever played a competitive sport before? Surely you understand leading by example.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall people here saying that Zib has been playing better before JT got here.....even recall reading he was one of our top forwards since the beginning of the new year.

 

[Machinehead]

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall people here saying that Zib has been playing better before JT got here.....even recall reading he was one of our top forwards since the beginning of the new year.

I'm just going to post some factual information and people can do what they want with it:

Before the Miller trade, Zibanejad was shooting 8.1% and the Rangers were shooting 9.4% with him on the ice.

After the Miller trade, Zibanejad is shooting 12.5% and the Rangers are shooting 12.8% with him on the ice.

 

[bhamill]

Did you read anything I wrote?

Nobody is discounting leadership, but the leadership should demonstrate a tangible difference in how the team plays. That's literally what I posted.

JT Miller is a repeat of the same bad habits we already have. If he is seen as a leader, he's leading us in the wrong direction.

People talk about Zibanejad playing better and improving his habits. Ok, but JT Miller hasn't!! Miller is playing the same soft hockey we ripped Zibanejad for. So like, while I'm not saying that leadership doesn't exist, I find it hard to believe that JT told Zibanejad "hey you better play harder while I continue to aimlessly dump the puck in and play with my dick."

A ton of people are remarking about JT Miller's leadership, so I don't know what you're talking about there, and I have no idea what he says or does because I'm not in the room. All I know is he plays the same grabass, perimeter, stat-padding style our top forwards already played.

If he played a different brand of hockey, and everyone else was still a moron, then sure, it's early yet. He's not doing that. He's feeding right into it. That's the player he always was when he was here. Then he went to a team where he 1) finally started putting up points and 2) couldn't get along with anyone, and we just decided that's leadership somehow.

Have you ever played a competitive sport before? Surely you understand leading by example.

I disagree with a lot of this. Miller goes to the dirty areas far more regularly than anyone else in the top six, unless we are settled on Cuylle being top six. To me he’s on the cusp. One of the few guys that shows pushback when the most of rest of the team seems content being abused. Does he play “the right way” 100% of the time? No. But very few players in this league do.
He’s a legit 1C that puts up points (basically a ppg for this team) and plays with an edge. No he’s NOT prime Messier. Who is? But he’s a player this team needed, and needs more of IMO. And at the price point the trade was more than a good one for us. Plus he’s paid less than Zibs and the cap is only going up. Of all the problems with this team, Miller is WAY down the list.

 

[bhamill]

I'm just going to post some factual information and people can do what they want with it:

Before the Miller trade, Zibanejad was shooting 8.1% and the Rangers were shooting 9.4% with him on the ice.

After the Miller trade, Zibanejad is shooting 12.5% and the Rangers are shooting 12.8% with him on the ice.

Confidence and perhaps a higher quality of chances? Do you think it’s just luck and coincidence?

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

I don't know how you can watch guys like Panarin and Zibanejad play and think this team has a skill problem. Won the president's trophy last season and think that the players just all suddenly magically declined.

Panarin seems to have lost a step. He can stickhandle & shoot as well as ever, but he doesn't find open space quite as much. So teams can cordon him off better.

Zibanejad has the yips or something. His shot is not what it once was. Receiving passes can be a problem.

Imo both of these guys are a mite less then they were at their peak.

 

[McRanger92]

I'll judge JT's play next year and the years going forward. I think he's been solid for a team that has largely quit in a lost season. The team needs defensive help and a long offseason.