Speculation: Roster Building thread: Part XIX (Thanks, Sam)

[Machinehead]

Dickinson contributes offensively in the sense that he's an NHL player and he plays a lot.

Brodzinski would score just as much if not more in the same role.

Wouldn't mind Dickinson, but nowhere near the top 9.

 

[GAGLine]

Someone above just posted that Brodzinski is ranked 2nd in p/60. We suck for a variety of reasons this year but when your 2nd best skill guy apparently is Johnny Brodzinski you have a problem.

Soucy, after 6 games, is 4th on that list. Kakko is 5th, tied with Cuylle, but Cuylle is great and Kakko had to be traded for some reason.

I like Brodz, but let's not make him out to be something he's not. He's a great AHL player and a quality 13th forward in the NHL, but he's not a guy you want as your 3rd line center if you are serious about winning a cup.

 

[Machinehead]

You can bring up whatever alpha/beta nonsense you want, JT Miller has absolutely exacerbated every annoying habit this team has with the puck. Not only are the guys around him not correcting it -- he's doing it.

My problem with that whole discussion on grit, leadership, etc, etc, whatever you want to call it is not that it's not valid, but that we don't conceptualize it. What does it mean? What specifically do we do wrong and how is Miller a correcting force?

I can think of quite a few ways we don't play "hard" or play "right," and he feeds right into it. One big one is just dumping the puck in if there isn't a rush chance, and giving it a token gesture one-man forecheck, because this team absolutely refuses to create offense off the cycle. The guy that dumped it is never the one to keep his feet moving and disrupt like you'll see Florida do. He rims it around and peels away, and it's the next guy's problem. Miller does that all the time.

I'm waiting for somebody to explain to me what Miller does on the puck, that's tangible, that's a change from how this team plays. All I get is "he's JT Miller, he's alpha!" Not only is that meaningless to me, but building the team like that based on vibes is not going to solve anything!

 

[kovazub94]

If Soucy isn't that good, and is an expensive option for 3LD, why the hell would we trade away one of Miller or Schneider to accommodate him for 1 year?

No, nothing has to give. It's entirely possible that we go into next year with the same defense. Tell me what 1LD we are acquiring and how we are acquiring him. In the unlikely event that we can trade for one, Soucy could be going the other way to help balance the cap.

Bringing in Soucy doesn't make anyone else expendable.

Then it's a minus for Drury if going into the second season after Rangers D core was exposed in ECF vs Panthers he "upgraded" Lindgren to Soucy.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Parssinen still has zero shots on goal as a NYR. Keep scratching Berard

 

[GAGLine]

Then it's a minus for Drury if going into the second season after Rangers D core was exposed in ECF vs Panthers he "upgraded" Lindgren to Soucy.

That may be the case. It may be that we'll trade Kreider, bring in another LD, and Soucy will either be traded or be the 7th dman. I wouldn't assume that Drury won't make changes to the defense, but I also wouldn't assume that bringing in Soucy in any way means one of Miller or Schneider will be traded.

Schneider has a year left at a decent number. Miller needs a new contract, but the way his offensive numbers have tanked the last 2 years, he isn't going to break the bank, and we'll have 2 years before any sort of trade protection will kick in. He's probably not going to get a 6+ year deal. Maybe not even 5 years. 3 or 4 seems most likely. We have no better options in house, and the external options are severely limited.

After Borgen was signed, I think it was Vince who floated the idea that Schneider would move to the left side. Outside of maybe a couple games, we've seen no evidence of that plan. Maybe it's something they will try in camp next year, but that will be too late to do much if it doesn't work out.

It's all just speculation at this point. I don't think anyone knows what Drury will actually do.

 

[Savant]

It doesn’t matter how the Soucy/Vaakanainen/Miller/Borgen/Schneider blob shakes out if there isn’t a legit 1LHD partner for Fox.

Lindgren may be gone, which is great because we do not have to pay him. But we still have not solved the Lindgren problem

 

[Machinehead]

It doesn’t matter how the Soucy/Vaakanainen/Miller/Borgen/Schneider blob shakes out if there isn’t a legit 1LHD partner for Fox.

Lindgren may be gone, which is great because we do not have to pay him. But we still have not solved the Lindgren problem

They need somebody who can carry the second pair to push Miller up.

 

[Savant]

They need somebody who can carry the second pair to push Miller up.

Sure, we don’t have that either.

But again lot depends on if Laviolette is back or not too. Laviolette will probably continue to be adverse to playing Miller and Fox, so we’d need the new coach to either buy into that pairing; or show Laviolette was right (lol) to keep them apart.

But where I keep landing on this is that Drury and Laviolette has such a narrow mind on what a NHL Dman is, and this is a Dman core very much built in that image. So would next coach/regime continue this or does next coach say we need to throw this in the trash and start over again. Interesting is not the right word to describe this; but it’s something worth keeping an eye on

 

[bernmeister]

Soucy, after 6 games, is 4th on that list. Kakko is 5th, tied with Cuylle, but Cuylle is great and Kakko had to be traded for some reason.

I like Brodz, but let's not make him out to be something he's not. He's a great AHL player and a quality 13th forward in the NHL, but he's not a guy you want as your 3rd line center if you are serious about winning a cup.

disagree
imo you are ignoring further untapped upside
give the guy a LEGIT chance

 

[kovazub94]

That may be the case. It may be that we'll trade Kreider, bring in another LD, and Soucy will either be traded or be the 7th dman. I wouldn't assume that Drury won't make changes to the defense, but I also wouldn't assume that bringing in Soucy in any way means one of Miller or Schneider will be traded.

Schneider has a year left at a decent number. Miller needs a new contract, but the way his offensive numbers have tanked the last 2 years, he isn't going to break the bank, and we'll have 2 years before any sort of trade protection will kick in. He's probably not going to get a 6+ year deal. Maybe not even 5 years. 3 or 4 seems most likely. We have no better options in house, and the external options are severely limited.

After Borgen was signed, I think it was Vince who floated the idea that Schneider would move to the left side. Outside of maybe a couple games, we've seen no evidence of that plan. Maybe it's something they will try in camp next year, but that will be too late to do much if it doesn't work out.

It's all just speculation at this point. I don't think anyone knows what Drury will actually do.

Just to clarify - I did not intend to imply that bringing Soucy meant that Miller / Schneider will be moved.

However, his high cap cost is pretty prohibitive for next year as 3LD when the cap is still not sufficiently up yet and the Rangers still need to make significant roster improvements and internal signings coincidently at LD. That's why IMO Drury brought Soucy as an insurance policy for 1LD / 2LD roles if needed.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Parssinen still has zero shots on goal as a NYR. Keep scratching Berard

He might be the most useless player I’ve ever seen. Holy shit he provides nothing.

 

[GAGLine]

It doesn’t matter how the Soucy/Vaakanainen/Miller/Borgen/Schneider blob shakes out if there isn’t a legit 1LHD partner for Fox.

Lindgren may be gone, which is great because we do not have to pay him. But we still have not solved the Lindgren problem

That's the rub, though. Who are we bringing in? The UFA market is likely to be very thin. Chychrun, Gavrikov and Provorov could all be off the market before July 1st. Trade-wise, I see some potential options.

There's Buffalo's 3 LD, obviously (Power, Byram and Samuelsson). I expect one of them will be available, but which one, and do any of them solve our problem?

Maybe we can pry one of Lindell or Harley out of Dallas. They have Bischel ready to take a spot on the left side, and their RHD options are pretty weak. They also have a number of spots to fill next year with very limited cap space.

Would Dallas do Lindell + Dumba @ 50% for Schneider? They get some cap relief and a young RHD. We get our 1LD and a replacement 3RD. Obviously, I'd rather trade for Harley, but I doubt they will have any interest in moving him. Maybe they would prefer Borgen to Schneider and we take Dumba at full price.

Montreal is also heavy on LD. Maybe Guhle could be a target, with Borgen or Schneider going the other way.

In Washington, Sandin is signed long term. If they re-sign Chychrun, will they consider moving Fehervary? Probably not. They have a ton of cap space and most of that is coming from guys who are currently on LTIR. Outside of Chychrun and maybe Eller, all of their important players are under contract, and they are going to add Ryan Leonard and potentially Cole Hutson to that mix.

Does anyone see any other possibilities?

 

[GAGLine]

Just to clarify - I did not intend to imply that bringing Soucy meant that Miller / Schneider will be moved.

However, his high cap cost is pretty prohibitive for next year as 3LD when the cap is still not sufficiently up yet and the Rangers still need to make significant roster improvements and internal signings coincidently at LD. That's why IMO Drury brought Soucy as an insurance policy for 1LD / 2LD roles if needed.

Gotcha. In my post above, I noted a couple scenarios where Schneider might be moved. I don't think there's any way we are moving Miller, simply because then we'd need 2 LD, and finding 1 is going to be hard enough.

Soucy's cap hit is larger than I'd like to pay for a 3LD, but maybe Soucy will return to the form he showed a couple years ago and be a decent 2LD option next year. Stranger things have happened. Barring that, I think moves at forward can open up the necessary cap space to make a move on the back end.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

You can bring up whatever alpha/beta nonsense you want, JT Miller has absolutely exacerbated every annoying habit this team has with the puck. Not only are the guys around him not correcting it -- he's doing it.

My problem with that whole discussion on grit, leadership, etc, etc, whatever you want to call it is not that it's not valid, but that we don't conceptualize it. What does it mean? What specifically do we do wrong and how is Miller a correcting force?

I can think of quite a few ways we don't play "hard" or play "right," and he feeds right into it. One big one is just dumping the puck in if there isn't a rush chance, and giving it a token gesture one-man forecheck, because this team absolutely refuses to create offense off the cycle. The guy that dumped it is never the one to keep his feet moving and disrupt like you'll see Florida do. He rims it around and peels away, and it's the next guy's problem. Miller does that all the time.

I'm waiting for somebody to explain to me what Miller does on the puck, that's tangible, that's a change from how this team plays. All I get is "he's JT Miller, he's alpha!" Not only is that meaningless to me, but building the team like that based on vibes is not going to solve anything!

The way Miller played when he first got here was in stark contrast to the rest of the team. Unfortunately he’s powerless to overcome the rot that pervades this team so after a couple of weeks he was also assimilated and plays the RONGO WAY now.

 

[NYR Viper]

That's the rub, though. Who are we bringing in? The UFA market is likely to be very thin. Chychrun, Gavrikov and Provorov could all be off the market before July 1st. Trade-wise, I see some potential options.

There's Buffalo's 3 LD, obviously (Power, Byram and Samuelsson). I expect one of them will be available, but which one, and do any of them solve our problem?

Maybe we can pry one of Lindell or Harley out of Dallas. They have Bischel ready to take a spot on the left side, and their RHD options are pretty weak. They also have a number of spots to fill next year with very limited cap space.

Would Dallas do Lindell + Dumba @ 50% for Schneider? They get some cap relief and a young RHD. We get our 1LD and a replacement 3RD. Obviously, I'd rather trade for Harley, but I doubt they will have any interest in moving him. Maybe they would prefer Borgen to Schneider and we take Dumba at full price.

Montreal is also heavy on LD. Maybe Guhle could be a target, with Borgen or Schneider going the other way.

In Washington, Sandin is signed long term. If they re-sign Chychrun, will they consider moving Fehervary? Probably not. They have a ton of cap space and most of that is coming from guys who are currently on LTIR. Outside of Chychrun and maybe Eller, all of their important players are under contract, and they are going to add Ryan Leonard and potentially Cole Hutson to that mix.

Does anyone see any other possibilities?

Kreider for Lindholm

The trade is 1 for 1

Same exact cap hit ($6.5m) but Lindholm has 3 years left in lieu of Kreider's 2. Both have had disappointing seasons. The problem for Lindholm has always been health. That could be a reason why Drury is keen to have both Vaak and Soucy for next year.

Miller-Fox
Lindholm-Borgen
Schneider-Clarke (I am wishing the Panarin to LA for Clarke + in to existence)
Soucy-Vaak

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

And who are you replacing him with?

They can replace K'Andre with that mythical defenseman they are always chasing. The one who is large, physical, and not a total klutz. One day they'll find him! Or they'll die trying.

 

[Machinehead]

The way Miller played when he first got here was in stark contrast to the rest of the team. Unfortunately he’s powerless to overcome the rot that pervades this team so after a couple of weeks he was also assimilated and plays the RONGO WAY now.

So he stopped playing hockey after two weeks?

Not very alpha.

 

[tiggles]

So he stopped playing hockey after two weeks?

Not very alpha.

It's alpha mindset to just go along with whatever the rest of the group is doing.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

It doesn’t matter how the Soucy/Vaakanainen/Miller/Borgen/Schneider blob shakes out if there isn’t a legit 1LHD partner for Fox.

Lindgren may be gone, which is great because we do not have to pay him. But we still have not solved the Lindgren problem

Miller can play with Fox.

 

[pld459666]

thanks, now what about what I said relative to Brodz?



yes as to this being an indictment of others but NO, Brodz is apparently GOOD

Didn't read it. But as a 4th line option, hes solid for the cost.

 

[GAGLine]

Kreider for Lindholm

The trade is 1 for 1

Same exact cap hit ($6.5m) but Lindholm has 3 years left in lieu of Kreider's 2. Both have had disappointing seasons. The problem for Lindholm has always been health. That could be a reason why Drury is keen to have both Vaak and Soucy for next year.

Miller-Fox
Lindholm-Borgen
Schneider-Clarke (I am wishing the Panarin to LA for Clarke + in to existence)
Soucy-Vaak

I would do that, but would Boston? That will leave Zadorov and Lohrei as their top 2 LD, and I have to wonder which direction they are looking to go next year. They have 27 mil in cap space, but only 12 players under contract. Are they going to try to retool and compete or take a step back and regroup?

I'm not sure that deal would help them in either case.

 

[Graves97]

So he stopped playing hockey after two weeks?

Not very alpha.

So what exactly is the solution? Should the team continue to bring in more skill players that are completely allergic to the middle of the ice and like to play catch outside the circles? Or more undersized defensemen that are consistently bullied in front of their own net? Hockey is a physical sport and teams need both physical and mental toughness in order to succeed. Now this isn't me arguing that we need 12 Tom Wilsons and 6 Chris Pronger's to win the cup, but you obviously need a blend of the two in order to be successful and have a real shot at winning.

The JT Miller deal was not ideal given his age and the contract that's attached to him. However,, Drury had very limited options in terms of what he could do and this was the only real attempt he had at shaking up the team, so I won't blame him for this. Only other option is a full tear down which they are not going to do given the the money tied up across multiple players over the next 5 years with various NMCs/NTCs attached.

I personally feel a full teardown would be the right approach since I don't believe the team is properly constructed (you start at C, build out the D, and add the rest of the pieces) but that's just not how the Rangers have operated (explains the lack of success and 1 cup in the last 70 years). When they actually tried this, they couldn't help themselves and signed Panarin and traded for Trouba less than 2 years into the rebuild.

 

[McRanger92]

The offseason retool starts with Kreider. In the summer the Rangers will likely find a deal for him to go somewhere, and if the team is on his NTC, the rangers will do what Tampa Bay did to McD, and what they did to Trouba in December. Threaten him with waivers. Because of NMCs, Panarin and Mika are likely here next year. Id work hard to move Panarin and would retain for a year. The rangers will be pretty good next year if they get another defenseman and just play their kids more. Igor is showing why he got paid. God knows what they do with the coach. I doubt Drury is getting fired.

 

[majordomo]

So what exactly is the solution? Should the team continue to bring in more skill players that are completely allergic to the middle of the ice and like to play catch outside the circles? Or more undersized defensemen that are consistently bullied in front of their own net? Hockey is a physical sport and teams need both physical and mental toughness in order to succeed. Now this isn't me arguing that we need 12 Tom Wilsons and 6 Chris Pronger's to win the cup, but you obviously need a blend of the two in order to be successful and have a real shot at winning.

The JT Miller deal was not ideal given his age and the contract that's attached to him. However,, Drury had very limited options in terms of what he could do and this was the only real attempt he had at shaking up the team, so I won't blame him for this. Only other option is a full tear down which they are not going to do given the the money tied up across multiple players over the next 5 years with various NMCs/NTCs attached.

I personally feel a full teardown would be the right approach since I don't believe the team is properly constructed (you start at C, build out the D, and add the rest of the pieces) but that's just not how the Rangers have operated (explains the lack of success and 1 cup in the last 70 years). When they actually tried this, they couldn't help themselves and signed Panarin and traded for Trouba less than 2 years into the rebuild.

I would take 6 Prongers any day.