Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[Machinehead]

It's obvious that star players are held to a different standard than others. But there's a f***ing line. If you have continually sucked for multiple months, then your leash is going to get shorter.

It's obvious you don't bench a guy like Panarin or Zibanejad after one bad giveaway, in a way you might bench Vesey. Their jobs are totally different. Vesey is expected to make the safe play, while the former are expected to create. That inherently is more risky. And you accept those risks because the good outweighs the bad (in theory).

But when you have continued to look like hot garbage for MONTHS, then you should absolutely slide down the lineup in favour of the guys who are trying and making an effort.

Don't disagree!

The "my dad sucks more than your dad!" sentiment on this board recently is really exhuasting.

We can criticize Kakko without having a contest to see if Zibanejad is worse.

If the rule is you have to be the worst, then nobody gets shat on but Lindgren. @GoAwayPanarin will enjoy it.

 

[McRanger92]

Again, I don't really disagree.

When I say "you can't have a Ray Bourque turnover every shift if you're not an offensive star"

and people respond with "but what about the guys who are 10th and 11 on the team's all-time scoring list?"

...I can't be the only one who sees non-sequitur there, right?

There's a Buchenevich level mental block within the fanbase when it comes to Kakko. People get very touchy over a guy who has 0 memorable moments in his Ranger career.

 

[TheDirtyH]

It's obvious that star players are held to a different standard than others. But there's a f***ing line. If you have continually sucked for multiple months, then your leash is going to get shorter.

It's obvious you don't bench a guy like Panarin or Zibanejad after one bad giveaway, in a way you might bench Vesey. Their jobs are totally different. Vesey is expected to make the safe play, while the former are expected to create. That inherently is more risky. And you accept those risks because the good outweighs the bad (in theory).

But when you have continued to look like hot garbage for MONTHS, then you should absolutely slide down the lineup in favour of the guys who are trying and making an effort.

And incidentally, you've hit on a major point of contention and contradiction in how this team is structured.

A guy like Vesey is expected to make the safe play.

A guy like Zibanejad is expected to create and you accept more risk from them.

A guy like Kakko (and it's important to note, a teenager like Kakko for a time) is expected to what? If he plays safe, he's not creating enough to hold down a spot. (His point about not being on the ice for goals against.) If he makes risky plays that don't work out, he can't expect to stay in the lineup. It's a no-win situation.

 

[Shadowtron]

Don't disagree!

The "my dad sucks more than your dad!" sentiment on this board recently is really exhuasting.

We can criticize Kakko without having a contest to see if Zibanejad is worse.

If the rule is you have to be the worst, then nobody gets shat on but Lindgren. @GoAwayPanarin will enjoy it.

Agreed. Whataboutisms get old very quickly.

 

[Machinehead]

BTW here's my works cited on Trotz telling Ovechkin not to f***in bother lol

 

[bhamill]

I don't disagree but wanting a player who's never done anything to have more leash than washed up stars isn't realistic.

They both had good seasons before that.

They did more offensively to earn their spots than Kakko did. Especially Kreider who was an excellent player until he got decrepit.

The problem here is you are talking like the three players are all established veterans, and not like one is a 23 year old... remember when we were applying "wanting a player who's never done anything to have more leash than washed up stars isn't realistic." to Lafrenierre... until we loosened that leash, stuck with him, and he started coming into his own...

93 and 20 have gotten MORE than enough leash this season (and last for that matter, for sure in 93's case) and they have shat the bed. All good things must come to an end, as they say. I'm applying that to both their level of play and the amount of free reign they have gotten.

 

[RangerBoy]

Kreider has the 15 team NTC throughout the end of his contract. Some of the other players agreed to a declining number of team like Trouba and Trocheck. Which are the 15 teams? The seven Canadian teams. If I were a player, I wouldn’t mind playing in Toronto or Montreal especially Montreal if they are good team. Saturday night, HNIC. These guys don't put the division rivals on their list knowing the team will most likely not trade them there. Devils. Islanders. Arizona was a popular team to add to the list. Is Utah a destination city? Columbus for sure. Buffalo. Drury has 16 teams to make a trade with involving Kreider.

7 Canadian teams. Columbus. Buffalo. Utah. That's 10. San Jose and Anaheim. That's 12. Three more. Chicago? Detroit?

If Montreal is not on his list, Gorton would take Kreider. Montreal was interested in Trouba. He didn't want to play there.

Florida, Texas, Nevada and Washington have good tax situations.

Boston Bruins. They can use Kreider. When EF wrote he wanted to see Vancouver reacquire Zadorov from Boston. i thought of a three team deal. Kreider to Boston. Zadorov to VAN. What does VAN send to NY? Vancouver could be interested in Kreider but he has the clause.

Trocheck. St. Louis. Philadelphia. Minnesota. They are looking for centers.

Adam Fox. Dallas? I read the Stars are looking to add a RD and a forward. The Stars have the Seguin money. $9.85M. Wyatt Johnston is playing RW. He is a center. He would be a good add for the Rangers. The Rangers get their top 6 center. Thomas Harley would be another good add. Fox is at $9.5M. Harley is $4M. ELC for Johnston. Dallas has not put Seguin on LTIR yet. They are accruing cap space. Puck Pedia has them with $3.75M in cap space at the deadline. They could add Kreider and Fox at the deadline. Fox goes into Seguin's money. Harley and the accrued cap space is more than enough for Kreider at $6.5M and still have another $1.25M left. Seguin will be back for the playoffs. Johnston was terrific for Dallas last season. 2nd full season.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

I definitely think there are teams interested in Kakko. Kreider as well. Im sure hes had calls/talks.

There are a lot of teams in crisis mode this year as well as some that are on the rise and may want to take a shot at either of them for the playoff run and beyond.

But as much of a circus it is right now I think patience is important. Both of those players will be in the 4 Nations tournament where their value can be inflated, especially Kakko who is more comfortable playing for his country.

Another reason to wait is to get closer to the deadline where prices generally speaking, rise. Those two and Lindgren could be on the move, maybe even in package deals.

The only positive in forcing a trade right now is to try and get this team out of a funk - but they are falling like a rock and are likely doomed anyway. Best to wait and see how things develop over the next 12-15 games, and possibily beyond.

Let the core stew. See if Brady or other impact player becomes available later in the season and youll have more potential/assets to make a deal like that work.

If Drury really thought this team would respond to a shake up deal he would've fired Lav. Trouba was not that. It was about clearing space and hoping the team would turn it around. Space for the deadline.

But It would be foolish to invest in this clubs postseason chances. Dealing Kakko right now, to me - is just making a deal for deals sake. I wouldnt deal him at all actually. He isnt the issue, nor is he the solution to this - unless you can package him in a deal for a true needle mover and those deals usually dont happen until summer.

 

[Machinehead]

The problem here is you are talking like the three players are all established veterans, and not like one is a 23 year old... remember when we were applying "wanting a player who's never done anything to have more leash than washed up stars isn't realistic." to Lafrenierre... until we loosened that leash, stuck with him, and he started coming into his own...

93 and 20 have gotten MORE than enough leash this season (and last for that matter, for sure in 93's case) and they have shat the bed. All good things must come to an end, as they say. I'm applying that to both their level of play and the amount of free reign they have gotten.

I died on the hill many times over that Lafereniere doesn't go on the powerplay until he f***ing gives us a reason.

Now I think he's earned it.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Really, getting value is the issue. And unless Kakko tears it up at 4 Nations he's worth more to NYR than anything we'd likely get as a return. And if he DOES tear it up at 4 Nations why would we want to trade him? It would show we need to utilize him better.

A short tournament that's a series of glorified all star games will show nothing.

 

[McRanger92]

Interesting article. There's precedent historically for the Rangers falloff.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I died on the hill many times over that Lafereniere doesn't go on the powerplay until he f***ing gives us a reason.

Now I think he's earned it.

Has he earned it or have others earned a demotion?

 

[Machinehead]

Kakko still has value. A lot of GM's out there are "I can fix her" simps when it comes to draft pedigree.

I have very little confidence that he keeps his value where it is, let alone raise it, if we continue to wait.

 

[Machinehead]

Has he earned it or have others earned a demotion?

Both.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You could have planted Kakko on the first line, given him all the PP1 time in the world, with the world's biggest leash the minute he stepped off the plane from Helsinki and he'd still be pretty much the same player.

 

[Michal]

Kreider + Kakko (50% retained) + Lindgren (50% retained) for Eriksson-Ek + Brodin.
What do you think?

 

[bernmeister]

Kreider has the 15 team NTC throughout the end of his contract. Some of the other players agreed to a declining number of team like Trouba and Trocheck. Which are the 15 teams? The seven Canadian teams. If I were a player, I wouldn’t mind playing in Toronto or Montreal especially Montreal if they are good team. Saturday night, HNIC. These guys don't put the division rivals on their list knowing the team will most likely not trade them there. Devils. Islanders. Arizona was a popular team to add to the list. Is Utah a destination city? Columbus for sure. Buffalo. Drury has 16 teams to make a trade with involving Kreider.

7 Canadian teams. Columbus. Buffalo. Utah. That's 10. San Jose and Anaheim. That's 12. Three more. Chicago? Detroit?

If Montreal is not on his list, Gorton would take Kreider. Montreal was interested in Trouba. He didn't want to play there.

Florida, Texas, Nevada and Washington have good tax situations.

Boston Bruins. They can use Kreider. When EF wrote he wanted to see Vancouver reacquire Zadorov from Boston. i thought of a three team deal. Kreider to Boston. Zadorov to VAN. What does VAN send to NY? Vancouver could be interested in Kreider but he has the clause.

Trocheck. St. Louis. Philadelphia. Minnesota. They are looking for centers.

Adam Fox. Dallas? I read the Stars are looking to add a RD and a forward. The Stars have the Seguin money. $9.85M. Wyatt Johnston is playing RW. He is a center. He would be a good add for the Rangers. The Rangers get their top 6 center. Thomas Harley would be another good add. Fox is at $9.5M. Harley is $4M. ELC for Johnston. Dallas has not put Seguin on LTIR yet. They are accruing cap space. Puck Pedia has them with $3.75M in cap space at the deadline. They could add Kreider and Fox at the deadline. Fox goes into Seguin's money. Harley and the accrued cap space is more than enough for Kreider at $6.5M and still have another $1.25M left. Seguin will be back for the playoffs. Johnston was terrific for Dallas last season. 2nd full season.

fox and Sens are a fit

 

[Profet]

I'm asking because I honestly don't know. Have either of those 2 teams, in recent history, traded a player in the summer when the contract was signed less then 6 months or so prior?

Other teams have done it.

Tampa was close with how they treated McDonagh. They still got Guentzel.

 

[Crease]

NHL GMs have “I can fix him” syndrome. Kakko would return a decent amount, though I think he’s the perfect third liner.

 

[McRanger92]

Has he earned it or have others earned a demotion?

Yes.

Other teams have done it.

Tampa was close with how they treated McDonagh. They still got Guentzel.

They also got McDonagh back lol

Kreider + Kakko (50% retained) + Lindgren (50% retained) for Eriksson-Ek + Brodin.
What do you think?

Guerin hangs up

 

[duhmetreE]

No changes? I’ll check back in a hour

 

[LOFIN]

Don't disagree!

The "my dad sucks more than your dad!" sentiment on this board recently is really exhuasting.

We can criticize Kakko without having a contest to see if Zibanejad is worse.

If the rule is you have to be the worst, then nobody gets shat on but Lindgren. @GoAwayPanarin will enjoy it.

FWIW, I wasn't talking about Kakko (crazy coming from me, I know) or Zibanejad specifically, but the kids in general should feel pretty annoyed about how this has been going for the last little while.

I'm not saying there is a perfect solution. Demote the vets, they get annoyed (and on paper you are more likely to lose). Don't give the kids the opportunity, they will be annoyed (and the fanbase is annoyed). Who says being an NHL coach is an easy job?

I definitely think there are teams interested in Kakko. Kreider as well. Im sure hes had calls/talks.

Like I said on other threads, there should be 31 teams calling, because teams love former high draft picks. The "I can fix him" -syndrome if you will. That doesn't mean that the other GMs are offering huge assets for him, when his name has been floated out in trade rumours for some time now, then the scratch and the shots fired back at the coach by Kakko? Teams know Drury is going to have to move him at some point here.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

You could have planted Kakko on the first line, given him all the PP1 time in the world, with the world's biggest leash the minute he stepped off the plane from Helsinki and he'd still be pretty much the same player.

I kinda agree with this.

At the very least his contract would be more inflated due to PP points and hed be tougher to move.

Which to me, makes him more attractive to hold onto since hes 23 yr old two way bottom 6 guy

 

[LOFIN]

Interesting article. There's precedent historically for the Rangers falloff.

Am I supposed to feel better? Because I don't.

 

[Machinehead]

People keep making these Minnesota proposals where they give us core pieces like they don't have the third best record in the league.