Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV (To trade or not to trade is the question)

[UnSandvich]

I give you Messier even though Mika will surpass him in goals and total points and he still have ways to go until catching Ratelle but at some point you old timers need to let go of the past. Point production matters in this kind of discussions. No matter how hard you try to clutch on to your old glory days.

As I answered Old Yeller above, I concede on Messier but he already surpassed Boucher by a wide margin and we cant hold on to players from over 100 years ago as these gods that are untouchable.

When does production matter in your opinion? I mean 4th best center all time for a original six franchise is a great accomplishment no?

Zibanejad has 1 season in the Top 10 of the league in goals, 5th in 19-20. None in assists. None in points. Never a single Hart vote in his career so far, and dollars to donuts, not a single one before he retires.

Boucher had 2 seasons in the Top 10 for goals, 27-28 (4th) and 29-30 (9th). 9 straight seasons in the Top 10 for assists. Of those, 3 were 1st place finishes and 4 more were 2nd. 7 seasons in the Top 7 for points. 2 Top 5 Hart finishes, 5th in 29-30 at 28 yrs old, 4th in 34-35 at 33 years old.

Career stat accumulation is nigh on useless as a metric for anything other than surface-level analysis. There's simply been far too large an evolution in how the game is played to make direct comparisons between eras. Dominance relative to peers is how you would actually look at things if you were putting any remotely serious effort or brainpower into it.

 

[bernmeister]

We love you, bern!

Love is all you (we) need

not original, but never wrong

Relax old timer. I sense high blood pressure.

Its ok. Everything will be fine. Activate the recliner and enjoy the game.

As one of the more vociferous geezers here,
watch it whippersnapper!

 

[Boris Zubov]

Relax old timer. I sense high blood pressure.

Its ok. Everything will be fine. Activate the recliner and enjoy the game.

I love how you keep resorting to insults when you know have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. I'm here for it, Webster.

 

[Siddi]

Love is all you (we) need

not original, but never wrong


As one of the more vociferous geezers here,
watch it whippersnapper!

Sorry Bern. You are one of the good ones in my book even though you are whack.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Sorry Bern. You are one of the good ones in my book even though you are whack.

Something, something about Pot meeting Kettle.

 

[bernmeister]

Sorry Bern. You are one of the good ones in my book even though you are whack.

I am beyond the whack

That is what you and some of my critics don't yet get.

[It's like an episode of Star Trek and they've pulled so far out of the galaxy only the most creative, outside the box guy can get them back.]


But fear not
there is still time
TO LEARN WITH THE BERN

 

[Siddi]

I love how you keep resorting to insults when you know have nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion. I'm here for it, Webster.

When have I insulted you? I care for my elders. You are the one who started the name calling by calling me Webster a couple of days ago.

Memory going out the window too?

 

[Daves a mess]

I got Bobby Rousseau's autograph in the blue seats in 1972.
Wrote it on a match book cover in pencil.

My dad made me ask him. I remember thinking that he was a bit of a dick.

He smelled like V05 hair gel.

 

[Siddi]

Zibanejad has 1 season in the Top 10 of the league in goals, 5th in 19-20. None in assists. None in points. Never a single Hart vote in his career so far, and dollars to donuts, not a single one before he retires.

Zibanejad is 9th in goals by a center since 17-18 up until last season.

You yourself conceded reluctantly that Mika might be the 4th best center in Rangers history. That in itself is a big accomplishment for a 100 year old franchise.

 

[Boris Zubov]

When have I insulted you? I care for my elders. You are the one who started the name calling by calling me Webster a couple of days ago.

Memory going out the window too?

I addressed you as Webster but never stopped making salient points. You decided to stomp your feet because several of us gave you countless valid reasons why your beloved #93 isn't living up to the fantasy you have built up for him in your mind.

And frankly, I'm not convinced you aren't related to Webster or actually Webster himself.

 

[Siddi]

I addressed you as Webster but never stopped making salient points. You decided to stomp your feet because several of us gave you countless valid reasons why your beloved #93 isn't living up to the fantasy you have built up for him in your mind.

And frankly, I'm not convinced you aren't related to Webster or actually Webster himself.

No feet stomping here. I am having fun and if it makes you feel better you are more than welcome to adress me as Webster.

 

[UnSandvich]

Zibanejad is 9th in goals by a center since 17-18 up until last season.

You yourself conceded reluctantly that Mika might be the 4th best center in Rangers history. That in itself is a big accomplishment for a 100 year old franchise.

Over a 7 year period (2017-18 to 2023-24), Zibanejad is 9th in goals among C's.
Over a 7 year period (1926-27 to 1932-33), Boucher was 4th in goals among C's.

Over those same time periods, Zibanejad is 16th in Assists. Boucher is 1st.

If you'd prefer to do it by ages, since Boucher started his NHL career at 25 and Zibanejad started playing for the Rangers in his 23 yr old season, we can do both players 25-30yr old seasons. This'd be 26-27 to 31-32 for Boucher and 18-19 to 23-24 for Mika

Boucher: 2nd in Points, 3rd in goals, 1st in assists
Mika: 11th in Points, 9th in goals, 11th in assists.

 

[Siddi]

Over a 7 year period (2017-18 to 2023-24), Zibanejad is 9th in goals among C's.
Over a 7 year period (1926-27 to 1932-33), Boucher was 4th in goals among C's.

Over those same time periods, Zibanejad is 16th in Assists. Boucher is 1st.

If you'd prefer to do it by ages, since Boucher started his NHL career at 25 and Zibanejad started playing for the Rangers in his 23 yr old season, we can do both players 25-30yr old seasons. This'd be 26-27 to 31-32 for Boucher and 18-19 to 23-24 for Mika

Boucher: 2nd in Points, 3rd in goals, 1st in assists
Mika: 11th in Points, 9th in goals, 11th in assists.

How many players were there in the league back then?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe Kreiders jersey should belong in the rafters?

 

[haohmaru]

Over a 7 year period (2017-18 to 2023-24), Zibanejad is 9th in goals among C's.
Over a 7 year period (1926-27 to 1932-33), Boucher was 4th in goals among C's.

Over those same time periods, Zibanejad is 16th in Assists. Boucher is 1st.

If you'd prefer to do it by ages, since Boucher started his NHL career at 25 and Zibanejad started playing for the Rangers in his 23 yr old season, we can do both players 25-30yr old seasons. This'd be 26-27 to 31-32 for Boucher and 18-19 to 23-24 for Mika

Boucher: 2nd in Points, 3rd in goals, 1st in assists
Mika: 11th in Points, 9th in goals, 11th in assists.

Boucher: 6 teams in the league, ~120+ players to compete against.
Zibanejad: 32 teams in the league, ~640+ players to compete against.

And, not for nothing, it's kind of asinine (not directed at you, just in general) to compare eras that are 80 years apart.

 

[UnSandvich]

Boucher: 6 teams in the league, ~120+ players to compete against.
Zibanejad: 32 teams in the league, ~640+ players to compete against.

And, not for nothing, it's kind of asinine (not directed at you, just in general) to compare eras that are 80 years apart.

How many players were there in the league back then?

Let me ask you this. Do you believe Kreiders jersey should belong in the rafters?

There's era-adjusted stats, but those simplify things a bit much for my tastes (Hockey-Reference has Boucher at 65th in era-adjusted points, 25th in assists). And that's why I again fall back on dominance vs. peers as my go-to. The History of Hockey Board's most recent Top 100 had him ranked as the 42nd best player of all time, and I don't think many of the guys below him have passed him by, besides McDavid and possibly Malkin

Some other Boucher fun facts:
- When the merger occurred in 1926, his rights were actually sold to Boston, but Bill Cook got Conn Smythe to buy his rights for $1500
- He won the Lady Byng 7 times in 8 years, to the point where the actual Lady Byng said "f*** it" (paraphrased) and just gave him the original trophy, donating a new one to the NHL.
- In 1943-44 the Rangers were so bad that he came out of retirement/his head coaching job and played in 15 games, putting up 14 points at 42 years old. He was the oldest player to play in the NHL until Doug Harvey in 1968
- Boucher was part of the committee that introduced the center-ice red line to the NHL
- He was the first coach to start consistently playing 2 goalies rather than just riding a single guy into the ground

 

[Siddi]

There's era-adjusted stats, but those simplify things a bit much for my tastes (Hockey-Reference has Boucher at 65th in era-adjusted points, 25th in assists). And that's why I again fall back on dominance vs. peers as my go-to. The History of Hockey Board's most recent Top 100 had him ranked as the 42nd best player of all time, and I don't think many of the guys below him have passed him by, besides McDavid and possibly Malkin

Some other Boucher fun facts:
- When the merger occurred in 1926, his rights were actually sold to Boston, but Bill Cook got Conn Smythe to buy his rights for $1500
- He won the Lady Byng 7 times in 8 years, to the point where the actual Lady Byng said "f*** it" (paraphrased) and just gave him the original trophy, donating a new one to the NHL.
- In 1943-44 the Rangers were so bad that he came out of retirement/his head coaching job and played in 15 games, putting up 14 points at 42 years old. He was the oldest player to play in the NHL until Doug Harvey in 1968
- Boucher was part of the committee that introduced the center-ice red line to the NHL
- He was the first coach to start consistently playing 2 goalies rather than just riding a single guy into the ground

Great, he can have the lifetime achievment award for his off-ice contributions to hockey.

 

[Jauffre]

we have to trim the remaining pro verbal adipose tissues

trade:
Lingren for a pick (respect the dedication but he's cooked as they say)
Schneider for a young roster player (guy cant defend, he's truly a trouba Jr.)
Package Kris Kreider ++ for Brady Kachutk (peak is over guy + doesn't know how to play hockey/who cares if he's Mr. Rongo)

we're stuck with Zibenejed unless Drury threatens a GM's family to take him

keep:
Jones (keep for now, has next to no value anyway yet moderate upside)
Kakko (he's gonna peak in his late twenties/early 30s)
Laf obviously

Sign Jasper Fasth again

you let Panarin walk in 2 years unless he takes 8M or less.

Go after McDavid at all costs (literally). Win a Cup.

Panarin - McDavis - Lafrèniere
Brady - Zibe - Hytil
Cuylle - Trochek - Kakko
Vesey - Frederic - Fasth

 

[pld459666]

If Drury fires his 3rd coach in 3 years and in season, the guy has no f***ing clue what he is doing

It's not the coaching.

This is the best staff, top to bottom we have had in a very long time.

We need to drastically change the dynamics of the team.

 

[UnSandvich]

Great, he can have the lifetime achievment award for his off-ice contributions to hockey.

Still a better Ranger than Mika is, was or will ever be

 

[Siddi]

Still a better Ranger than Mika is, was or will ever be

Great retort when everything else you tried failed.

Still want to push your narrative for Boucher in a time where there were only 120 players in the league

 

[JohnC]

Not to diminish what Zibanejad was once upon a time, but he’s not even the best Rangers forward of this era.

Siddi is Swedish, if I’m remembering correctly, so there’s a bit of bias involved here IMO.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I am not impressed. Id make 80% of the team available but the trades have to be legit. No givaways or firesales. Fair value moves.

 

[UnparalledPark]

We had a Messier & a Ratelle who were head & shoulders better than Mika has been or will ever be. He's not close to the Mt Rushmore of this team no matter how hard you'll try to convince yourself of this.

Aren’t there 4 heads on Mt. Rushmore?

 

[McRanger92]

Would Boston deal McAvoy? I’d include Schneider. Long Island Ranger fan who gives a f*** when he plays. They all end up here anyway, might as well expedite it.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Aren’t there 4 heads on Mt. Rushmore?

So you want to put all centers on there? No room for Leetch, Henrik, Gilbert?