Roster Building Thread - Part XII(Training Camp/Preseason)

[RangersFan1994]

Rangers need to send a message on Friday vs the Islanders. Send out Rempe Cuylle Mackey Othmann to go after and hit Barzal, Horvat and Mayfield hard and legally. That was still a dirty hit on Chytil. Rangers got really lucky that Chytil was healthy enough to continue and had not gotten hurt.

 

[bernmeister]

reject this stupidity ....

Should Maple Leafs Consider a Mock Rempe Trade with Rangers?

Part of the fun of being a hockey fan and using the online tools that exist now to act like an NHL general manager is exploring trade ideas. A popular

www.yardbarker.com

go w/my post 1797

 

[kovazub94]

It’s not really many posters, SA16 just feels he needs to recycle the same argument 500 times and cant seem to budge on exploring anything different than keeping the same PP, no matter if they are slumping or not.

@SA16 is absolutely right (and he’s not the only one who seem unsuccessfully trying to convey pretty straightforward logic to leave PP1 alone). It’s the other side - posters who wants to f*** around with PP1 who don’t seem to get how statistics and probability work, or realize that there’s very strong “link” of the units success to its structure and specific traits of the personnel involved (like 4RH/1LH and tasks they assume).

 

[MrAlmost]

Does that get us Zegras?

I think it could, but I'm a nobody. Haha

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I would trade Rempe for Robertson in a second and not think twice lol

 

[The Crypto Guy]

@SA16 is absolutely right (and he’s not the only one who seem unsuccessfully trying to convey pretty straightforward logic to leave PP1 alone). It’s the other side - posters who wants to f*** around with PP1 who don’t seem to get how statistics and probability work, or realize that there’s very strong “link” of the units success to its structure and specific traits of the personnel involved (like 4RH/1LH and tasks they assume).

That’s a poor way of thinking. If something goes stale there is no reason why it shouldn’t be tinkered with.

Same thought of reason why people are so frustrated keeping kreider and mika together at ES even though they barely produce together, with anyone.

 

[bernmeister]

I would trade Rempe for Robertson in a second and not think twice lol

huge mistake

 

[Machinehead]

That’s a poor way of thinking. If something goes stale there is no reason why it shouldn’t be tinkered with.

Same thought of reason why people are so frustrated keeping kreider and mika together at ES even though they barely produce together, with anyone.

You can cross that bridge when you get to it, but there's no reason the same unit should start the year.

 

[kovazub94]

That’s a poor way of thinking. If something goes stale there is no reason why it shouldn’t be tinkered with.

Same thought of reason why people are so frustrated keeping kreider and mika together at ES even though they barely produce together, with anyone.

1. At what point in real time you realize that PP1 gone stale? In regular season you can look back 5-6 games but in playoffs? @bhamill mentions games 4-6 against Panthers which is great with hindsight but was that a call for action after only one game - in game 4? Two games at game 5? If a team is lucky enough to overcome PP going stale - on the strength of ES play - then maybe over the length of a long playoff run there’s an opportunity but in a 3-4 game stretch it is pretty impossible in practice.
2. Overall Aa it was mentioned again and again the strength of NYR PP1 is in its structure and having pieces that fit this structure. I’d love to have Lafreniere included but because he he’s LH - he doesn’t fit and it doesn’t make sense to break up a top-5 PP for the last three years just to find a spot for him. Because of how good PP has been at this point the only players who’d warrant such change would be at 3 Ms level (McDavid etc) - and even that not without a risk.
3. So if we go back to last year’s FL series, if Laviolette wanted a desperation move in game 6 (prepare yourself cause you’re not going to like it) it would be to address Fox ineffectiveness (both ES and PP) playing through injury and maybe trying Jones there. It’s a Hail Mary move but the only spot I could point to for the biggest reason why it stopped working if take randomness out
4. What Laviolette can do going forward this season is improvement in ES and PP2. Unless someone like McDavid suddenly enters the picture PP1 should let stay as is.

 

[SA16]

1. At what point in real time you realize that PP1 gone stale? In regular season you can look back 5-6 games but in playoffs? @bhamill mentions games 4-6 against Panthers which is great with hindsight but was that a call for action after only one game - in game 4? Two games at game 5? If a team is lucky enough to overcome PP going stale - on the strength of ES play - then maybe over the length of a long playoff run there’s an opportunity but in a 3-4 game stretch it is pretty impossible in practice.
2. Overall Aa it was mentioned again and again the strength of NYR PP1 is in its structure and having pieces that fit this structure. I’d love to have Lafreniere included but because he he’s LH - he doesn’t fit and it doesn’t make sense to break up a top-5 PP for the last three years just to find a spot for him. Because of how good PP has been at this point the only players who’d warrant such change would be at 3 Ms level (McDavid etc) - and even that not without a risk.
3. So if we go back to last year’s FL series, if Laviolette wanted a desperation move in game 6 (prepare yourself cause you’re not going to like it) it would be to address Fox ineffectiveness (both ES and PP) playing through injury and maybe trying Jones there. It’s a Hail Mary move but the only spot I could point to for the biggest reason why it stopped working if take randomness out
4. What Laviolette can do going forward this season is improvement in ES and PP2. Unless someone like McDavid suddenly enters the picture PP1 should let stay as is.

It's interesting that after three games of the Florida series the PP1 was 0/8 so clearly it was stale. Yet they scored on the PP in the first period of Game 4 so then maybe it wasn't stale anymore.

 

[TGWL]

Move Mika to PP2 and just have the 30 second PP2 be solely based on feeding Mika a one timer. That's about as good as you can ask for from a sparingly used 2nd PP.

It also spares PP1 from the nightly feed Mika a one timer that misses the net and ropes around the boards all the way back to our own zone.

When they still go with the one-timer option and it goes around the net, then what?
Are we to believe Laf is going to get more one-timer opportunities than Panarin falling back to left circle? I'm already seeing the cross-ice turnovers in my head.

If you're going to give Zibanejad 30 seconds of pp time, you may as well try to force him off the team and get some cap space with that new plan.

 

[TGWL]

That’s a poor way of thinking. If something goes stale there is no reason why it shouldn’t be tinkered with.

Same thought of reason why people are so frustrated keeping kreider and mika together at ES even though they barely produce together, with anyone.

The argument has not been "If something goes stale"

The argument has been "Change PP1" and "Change up the units before it goes stale so we have options when that issue occurs." I don't think anybody here has tried to provided an argument on why PP1 should not be changed if they're having trouble entering the zone, scoring a goal, or simply looking terrible on the powerplay.

The Kreider/Zibanejad part was not a very good comparison when PP#1 finished top 3. Could they take a step back this year on the powerplay? Of course. And I don't think anybody will argue on it being tinkered with.

 

[SA16]

The powerplay should not be changed if it is "stale" and in a period of lack of success. It should be changed if there is a specific issue that needs to be corrected. For example...

Is Zibanejad's shot inaccurate and missing the net causing the puck to leave the zone at a worse rate than expected? (No, this was not the case last year, I already showed his rate of hitting the net was right in the same ballpark as other players who play his role)

Did Kreider's hand/eye coordination decline with age and is he no longer as good at tipping pucks in front of the net?

Is Trocheck suddenly not good at winning faceoffs and retrieving pucks out of the corner?

Is Fox suffering from a lack of mobility on the blue line possibly due to another leg issue?

Is Panarin making bad reads and turning the puck over too much?

I would not consider "Are the players standing around too much and not moving" a reason to change the unit. I would consider that a coaching issue that needs to be discussed and improved in practice. We've seen this structure for most of the last four years and they've always worked through it before.

Changing the unit because of a period of failure, say going 0/10, is illogical considering you should expect them to go 0/10 in roughly every 5-6 % independent 10 PP bins. Why would you change the unit after an expected outcome occurs?

 

[bernmeister]

Repudiate this bullshit and its false narrative:

MSN

both RempEd can make it
ditch Vesey

 

[McRanger92]

Dont come crying when the Rangers PP dries up in the most important games of the season because Mika can't get his one timer to hit the net. You've been warned.

I dont even feel that strongly over the PP stuff but the gaslighting regarding why it shouldn't or can't be tinkered with bugs me. Are the Rangers going to try anything new this year? Or just hope that Reilly Smith is the missing piece? Same line combos, same players, same mindset? Nothing matters but the playoff outcome this year and if its more of the same Ill be very happy to show the core players the door and get all these young players into the lineup next year. Even if it means a step back or 2.

 

[Machinehead]

Dont come crying when the Rangers PP dries up in the most important games of the season because Mika can't get his one timer to hit the net. You've been warned.

I dont even feel that strongly over the PP stuff but the gaslighting regarding why it shouldn't or can't be tinkered with bugs me. Are the Rangers going to try anything new this year? Or just hope that Reilly Smith is the missing piece? Same line combos, same players, same mindset? Nothing matters but the playoff outcome this year and if its more of the same Ill be very happy to show the core players the door and get all these young players into the lineup next year. Even if it means a step back or 2.

The only gaslighting is telling people that our powerplay isn't good.

We've also been warned over and over that every powerplay goes cold over a marathon tournament and that it shouldn't be relied on.

I'm all for changing things that aren't working. I haven't seen an argument with any statistical basis that the powerplay hasn't been working. Just a vibe of "wow, I'm disappointed the powerplay didn't save a bottom half of the league 5v5 team."

 

[NYR Viper]

I'm amazed that we have been discussing the PP for about 19 pages

 

[IDvsEGO]

I'm amazed that we have been discussing the PP for about 19 pages

It’s the pre-season. There’s been zero things to legitimately complain about.
we’ve talked the pp to death all off season too.

We finally have a decent coach so we can’t complain about that.
Laf had a great year last year so we can’t complain about him.
Kakko has been the whipping boy all off season(not undeserved) but that’s mostly in his thread.

Those have been the major complaints the past 2-3 years anyways. And all fans do is complain.
We could win the cup this year and the next day cry because Drury can’t keep every single player on the roster, so we’d scream he should be fired.

 

[McRanger92]

The only gaslighting is telling people that our powerplay isn't good.

We've also been warned over and over that every powerplay goes cold over a marathon tournament and that it shouldn't be relied on.

I'm all for changing things that aren't working. I haven't seen an argument with any statistical basis that the powerplay hasn't been working. Just a vibe of "wow, I'm disappointed the powerplay didn't save a bottom half of the league 5v5 team."

The most recent sample size we have (ECF against Florida) shows that an adjustment can be made.

But as I said it belies a bigger issue with the team in which they stick to what is comfortable for veteran players who have been unable to get us over the hump. I almost hope Panarin misses some time so we can see some changes. He's a strong Ewing Theory candidate as it pertains to the 5v5 play imo.

 

[bhamill]

1. At what point in real time you realize that PP1 gone stale? In regular season you can look back 5-6 games but in playoffs? @bhamill mentions games 4-6 against Panthers which is great with hindsight but was that a call for action after only one game - in game 4? Two games at game 5? If a team is lucky enough to overcome PP going stale - on the strength of ES play - then maybe over the length of a long playoff run there’s an opportunity but in a 3-4 game stretch it is pretty impossible in practice.
2. Overall Aa it was mentioned again and again the strength of NYR PP1 is in its structure and having pieces that fit this structure. I’d love to have Lafreniere included but because he he’s LH - he doesn’t fit and it doesn’t make sense to break up a top-5 PP for the last three years just to find a spot for him. Because of how good PP has been at this point the only players who’d warrant such change would be at 3 Ms level (McDavid etc) - and even that not without a risk.
3. So if we go back to last year’s FL series, if Laviolette wanted a desperation move in game 6 (prepare yourself cause you’re not going to like it) it would be to address Fox ineffectiveness (both ES and PP) playing through injury and maybe trying Jones there. It’s a Hail Mary move but the only spot I could point to for the biggest reason why it stopped working if take randomness out
4. What Laviolette can do going forward this season is improvement in ES and PP2. Unless someone like McDavid suddenly enters the picture PP1 should let stay as is.

All I'll say is it's better to have options and not NEED them, than need options and not HAVE them.
As far as when we would have theoretically switched it up? Well we went 0 for 8 in the first three games of the Panthers series... it wasn't JUST the last three games of the FL series. Also we went 1 for 10 in the last 4 games of the Carolina series...
It was not just a bad 3-4 game stretch (which is certainly enough to cost you a series)... PP1 completely shit the bed from Game 3 of the Carolina series on. I understand we subconsciously try to forget trauma, but this was a memorable collapse, not just a bad 3 games.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

bernmeister

Did any of you ever Google @bernmeister?

It's awesome.

 

[IDvsEGO]

The most recent sample size we have (ECF against Florida) shows that an adjustment can be made.

But as I said it belies a bigger issue with the team in which they stick to what is comfortable for veteran players who have been unable to get us over the hump. I almost hope Panarin misses some time so we can see some changes. He's a strong Ewing Theory candidate as it pertains to the 5v5 play imo.

Im sorry. A sample size of what 20?

 

[chosen]

lol are you f***ing kidding me. Panarin was our best 5v5 forward last year by a long way.

People love to make up negative things that confirm their lack of knowledge.

 

[TominNC]

The most recent sample size we have (ECF against Florida) shows that an adjustment can be made.

But as I said it belies a bigger issue with the team in which they stick to what is comfortable for veteran players who have been unable to get us over the hump. I almost hope Panarin misses some time so we can see some changes. He's a strong Ewing Theory candidate as it pertains to the 5v5 play imo.

The adjustment is that Fox is now healthy again. Other than the statistical probabilities that have been discussed in detail, the single most likely reason for the PP have a stale period was Fox being injured. Switching Laf in for Mika wasn’t fixing that.

 

[chosen]

Dont come crying when the Rangers PP dries up in the most important games of the season because Mika can't get his one timer to hit the net. You've been warned.

I dont even feel that strongly over the PP stuff but the gaslighting regarding why it shouldn't or can't be tinkered with bugs me. Are the Rangers going to try anything new this year? Or just hope that Reilly Smith is the missing piece? Same line combos, same players, same mindset? Nothing matters but the playoff outcome this year and if its more of the same Ill be very happy to show the core players the door and get all these young players into the lineup next year. Even if it means a step back or 2.

The most successful part of the team must be changed!!!!!!!!!!!