Roster Building Thread - Part XII(Training Camp/Preseason)

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Using the 6 from game 6 and their H/W from Hockey-reference:

- The Panthers D weighs 20 pounds more than the Rangers (1205lb to 1195lb)
- The average weight is 199.16 v 200.83
- Ekblad and Miller are tied for heaviest (215)
- Fox is lightest (182), Forsling is 2nd lightest at (186)
If you try to pair them up for comparison
Miller (215) v Ekblad (215)
Schneider (208) v Mikkola (209)
Trouba (203) v Kulikov (201)
Gus (197) v OEL (200)
Lindgren (190) v Montour (194)
Fox (182) v Forsling (186)

Pound for pound there really isn't anything between the two groups that would make me think the Rangers are undersized when it comes to D. Mindset, ability and game plan seem more telling.

Height wise (and I may have stuffed this up because feet/inches is bloody stupid):
- Panthers D average height is 6ft 1.5in v Rangers 6ft 1.3in
- Miller is the tallest D (6,5), Ekblad and Mikkola are 6,4
- Fox is the smallest (5,11), there are 4 D-men (2 for each team) at 6ft

Again, nothing splits these guys. the only real outlier from a body composition perspective is Fox (and even then, barely)

Thanks for this - will assume all is correct above. Florida D is bigger - by a marginal amount, maybe not worth noting(hard to tell, you could split this by minutes played and I think it tells a different story). This core was beaten up and folded in that series. Now replace Gus with Zac Jones who makes Adam Fox look huge. You can see where I'm going here. Getting smaller is not the answer. That said, the point about mindset, ability and even health(Fox was banged up, other guys too), is definitely a valid point. I think both points can be true.


All this to be said...I like Zac Jones. I think he's a good hockey player with a future in the NHL. Just not sure he's the answer for this team, right now. If some guys are juggled around, perhaps the math is different.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Bluejackets looking at trade market, could they be interested in Kakko? They need to get above the cap floor.

 

[mike14]

Thanks for this - will assume all is correct above. Florida D is bigger - by a marginal amount, maybe not worth noting(hard to tell, you could split this by minutes played and I think it tells a different story). This core was beaten up and folded in that series. Now replace Gus with Zac Jones who makes Adam Fox look huge. You can see where I'm going here. Getting smaller is not the answer. That said, the point about mindset, ability and even health(Fox was banged up, other guys too), is definitely a valid point. I think both points can be true.


All this to be said...I like Zac Jones. I think he's a good hockey player with a future in the NHL. Just not sure he's the answer for this team, right now. If some guys are juggled around, perhaps the math is different.

I think our D was tired, but a lot of that comes from not being able to get the puck out so they could never really rest on the ice. Whether or not someone like Jones can help with that remains to really be seen.
D v D probably isn't the right comparison anyway. Their D aren't really hitting ours, it's their forwards who are, so it would be better to look at how often the D are getting hit by heavier forwards especially in short time frames that would lead to fatigue.
And then look at, does being able to move the puck rapidly, causing the opposition to skate up and down the ice more, lead to fatigue faster, especially in bigger players who are hauling more weight around?

My assumption is that teams are trying to figure this stuff out to find the edge, but we aren't really going to see it

 

[mrmovies779]

Having toughness and size on the defense is so overrated.whats not?Having competent dmen who can move the puck consistently out of the zone and start a counter.Thats what cost us against the Panthers .We couldn't get out of our own zone because our defense was imitating Staal and Girardi

 

[Alluckks]

Scroll down, on the bottom right, click “Show ignored content” and the thread shall appear.

I'm not sure that this exists for non-mods, have tried looking for it before

 

[Leonardo87]

On the phone in a browser? I don’t see it.

@Machinehead its ironic that my inquiry above is right below your suggestion of using ignore function that I do and what got me into this predicament.

This is why only mods can make GDT’s and PGT’s in the Rangers forum(Although have been trying to implement that all over HF), it also applies to discussion threads, and other important threads. If someone has a mod on their ignore list, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[eco's bones]

Using the 6 from game 6 and their H/W from Hockey-reference:

- The Panthers D weighs 20 pounds more than the Rangers (1205lb to 1195lb)
- The average weight is 199.16 v 200.83
- Ekblad and Miller are tied for heaviest (215)
- Fox is lightest (182), Forsling is 2nd lightest at (186)
If you try to pair them up for comparison
Miller (215) v Ekblad (215)
Schneider (208) v Mikkola (209)
Trouba (203) v Kulikov (201)
Gus (197) v OEL (200)
Lindgren (190) v Montour (194)
Fox (182) v Forsling (186)

Pound for pound there really isn't anything between the two groups that would make me think the Rangers are undersized when it comes to D. Mindset, ability and game plan seem more telling.

Height wise (and I may have stuffed this up because feet/inches is bloody stupid):
- Panthers D average height is 6ft 1.5in v Rangers 6ft 1.3in
- Miller is the tallest D (6,5), Ekblad and Mikkola are 6,4
- Fox is the smallest (5,11), there are 4 D-men (2 for each team) at 6ft

Again, nothing splits these guys. the only real outlier from a body composition perspective is Fox (and even then, barely)

On Forsling he's listed on Florida's NHL site as 195 lbs. On Elite Prospects he's 198 and on Hockey Database he's 195. I can believe Fox is in the 185 range but Forsling even just with the eye test looks a bit bigger and those sites above seem to have it that way too.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Bluejackets looking at trade market, could they be interested in Kakko? They need to get above the cap floor.

No.

Kakko is not going anywhere anytime soon, you need to drop it already.

 

[haohmaru]

Again, nothing splits these guys. the only real outlier from a body composition perspective is Fox (and even then, barely)

And, the further outlier is that Fox is SO much better than anyone else.

 

[kovazub94]

This is why only mods can make GDT’s and PGT’s in the Rangers forum(Although have been trying to implement that all over HF), it also applies to discussion threads, and other important threads. If someone has a mod on their ignore list, I don’t know what to tell you.

View attachment 907623

As you can see - I don’t have this option to show ignore content for some reason.

 

[GAGLine]

View attachment 907656

As you can see - I don’t have this option to show ignore content for some reason.

You'll have to take the person you ignored off ignore. Click on your name at the top right of the page (just under the search bar) and select "Ignoring". You can then unignore the person who created the thread (Hint, the name contains a year).

There is also a checkbox on the "Ignoring" page that says, if you turn it off, it will just hide the content with a message that it is hidden and give you the option to view it. Unchecking that box may enable you to view that specific thread without taking the person off ignore.

 

[McRanger92]

No.

Kakko is not going anywhere anytime soon, you need to drop it already.

Ive been open to trading Kakko in the past (last year for Guentzel wouldve def helped our offensive woes in the ECF, but I digress) but its pointless to do it now. Still only 23 and power forwards take longer to develop. The rangers are going to retool and get younger over the next 2 years with Trouba and Panarin's contracts being up, Id prefer Kakko to be around for that, even if he tops out as a middle 6 player.

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Ive been open to trading Kakko in the past (last year for Guentzel wouldve def helped our offensive woes in the ECF, but I digress) but its pointless to do it now. Still only 23 and power forwards take longer to develop. The rangers are going to retool and get younger over the next 2 years with Trouba and Panarin's contracts being up, Id prefer Kakko to be around for that, even if he tops out as a middle 6 player.

Agree, I'm not offloading Kakko for peanuts. If there was a deal out there for a 23 year old defensemen of similar potential & skill who could use a change of scenery, I'd be open to that. Outside of that, trading Kakko just to make a move sounds like a bad decision.

 

[DevilDog99]

Can we talk about how Fox is the D version of Panarin in the playoffs?

Where was he the last three playoffs? Not hurt like Trouba. Why does Fox get a pass? The bagels? We have the top guys that play “soft” regular season style.

 

[bernmeister]

Bluejackets looking at trade market, could they be interested in Kakko? They need to get above the cap floor.

no stop dealing youth for vets
stop offering a discounted KK
As correctly noted below bread etc contracts up soon, not being renewed
we will need KK then
concentrate on finding correct linemates match if Chytil + Cuyle are not [as expected]

Also if BJs want to take on cap as you suggest, there are others better fit for such a trade.

Ive been open to trading Kakko in the past (last year for Guentzel wouldve def helped our offensive woes in the ECF, but I digress) but its pointless to do it now. Still only 23 and power forwards take longer to develop. The rangers are going to retool and get younger over the next 2 years with Trouba and Panarin's contracts being up, Id prefer Kakko to be around for that, even if he tops out as a middle 6 player.

glad we avoided stupidity of win now = failure which would reduce size of our window for 1 yr gamble not worth it

other than that, 111% agree
bread will not remotely sniff anything near, let alone more than the 11.6 he gets now from us
whether or not he is worth it -- and compared to other team needs and cap reality arguably he is not -- we won't throw salt in the wound with an insult w/in our price range, like 1 yr 5m-ish
he will thus not get a contract offer from us
to avoid ugly confrontation, he will agree to be moved prior to the last minute
when and where we can ship him to remains to be seen

when all this goes down we will be happy to have a more developed KK in there kickin it

 

[McRanger92]

Can we talk about how Fox is the D version of Panarin in the playoffs?

Where was he the last three playoffs? Not hurt like Trouba. Why does Fox get a pass? The bagels? We have the top guys that play “soft” regular season style.

Literally the only guy on the defense who can make a pass. He also was hurt this playoffs. Leetch had Beukeboom at least. Fox gets Lindgren, who can barely stand up straight at this point.

 

[bhamill]

Can we talk about how Fox is the D version of Panarin in the playoffs?

Where was he the last three playoffs? Not hurt like Trouba. Why does Fox get a pass? The bagels? We have the top guys that play “soft” regular season style.

Ummmm. He played on one leg this past playoff. A better question is “where were YOU.” Because this is common knowledge.

 

[effen]

Ive been open to trading Kakko in the past (last year for Guentzel wouldve def helped our offensive woes in the ECF, but I digress) but its pointless to do it now. Still only 23 and power forwards take longer to develop. The rangers are going to retool and get younger over the next 2 years with Trouba and Panarin's contracts being up, Id prefer Kakko to be around for that, even if he tops out as a middle 6 player.

You're never going to get surplus value for him because he's a slug who mostly just exists, so you might as well keep him and pray for improvement.

He's shit to watch though.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Can we talk about how Fox is the D version of Panarin in the playoffs?

Where was he the last three playoffs? Not hurt like Trouba. Why does Fox get a pass? The bagels? We have the top guys that play “soft” regular season style.

Tell me you didn’t watch without telling me you didn’t watch lmao

 

[McRanger92]

You're never going to get surplus value for him because he's a slug who mostly just exists, so you might as well keep him and pray for improvement.

He's shit to watch though.

Agreed that hes a complete bore but as long as hes not slotted in somewhere he shouldnt be (Kreider and Mika's other wing), he's still a better option than Othmann and Berard mystery boxes to start the season. Those guys can easily surpass him as the season goes on if Kakko plays poorly, but at that point I think he'd just be a salary piece in a larger trade at the deadline. Hopefully he has a 50 point season at 5v5 like Lafreniere last year and makes it all moot.

 

[noncents]

Ummmm. He played on one leg this past playoff. A better question is “where were YOU.” Because this is common knowledge.

for real

 

[TGWL]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog...

Fans react to height and weight of a player, but if you don't have lower body strength to keep you grounded, balanced, and strong on your skates, it really don't matter because you will find yourself easily knocked off the puck and bounced around.

On Forsling he's listed on Florida's NHL site as 195 lbs. On Elite Prospects he's 198 and on Hockey Database he's 195. I can believe Fox is in the 185 range but Forsling even just with the eye test looks a bit bigger and those sites above seem to have it that way too.

Fox is only 185 when constipated after a long weekend. Better take at least 10-15lbs off that when he finally lets it out.

 

[McRanger92]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog...

Fans react to height and weight of a player, but if you don't have lower body strength to keep you grounded, balanced, and strong on your skates, it really don't matter because you will find yourself easily knocked off the puck and bounced around.


Fox is only 185 when constipated after a long weekend. Better take at least 10-15lbs off that when he finally lets it out.

Yeah you can compare measurables all you want between NYR and FLA D cores, but the Rangers dont play with a shred of the tenacity and firmness that Florida's did/does. It's hard to quantify that, but you're lying to yourself if you dont acknowledge that its a thing

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

Can we talk about how Fox is the D version of Panarin in the playoffs?

Where was he the last three playoffs? Not hurt like Trouba. Why does Fox get a pass? The bagels? We have the top guys that play “soft” regular season style.

Uh, what are you talking about?

Fox was definitely hurt in the playoffs. He had the knee injury during the season and then took the knee on knee hit to the same knee from Jensen in round 1. I believe it was reported as a sprained MCL. He was very clearly hurt just from watching him and still was our best defenseman even with his noticeably limited mobility.

 

[bhamill]

Yeah you can compare measurables all you want between NYR and FLA D cores, but the Rangers dont play with a shred of the tenacity and firmness that Florida's did/does. It's hard to quantify that, but you're lying to yourself if you dont acknowledge that its a thing

Yes. But that’s the point. It’s not the size it’s the mindset.