Ron Francis’ future.

Kevinsane

Kraken up.
Apr 11, 2022
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I shit on Francis a lot, but it’s not exactly his fault the drafts the Kraken were gifted high picks in have proven to be historically thin and only produced a handful of top 6 players? That’s surely at least somewhat attributable to bad luck?

I concur. Not really drafts full of game breakers, and no real “that guy was available one pick after the Kraken selected!” revisionist history at play.
My issue with Francis is more with pro scouting and the term and dollars paid to bottom six players.
 
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Fuhrious

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Feb 3, 2004
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I concur. Not really drafts full of game breakers, and no real “that guy was available one pick after the Kraken selected!” revisionist history at play.
My issue with Francis is more with pro scouting and the term and dollars paid to bottom six players.
Yeah, I even cut him some slack for the Grubauer and Oleksiak signings…maybe even the Burakovsky one…because he was trying to make a big splash that inaugural year and give the team an aura of legitimacy. Still doing that 5 years later, however…

And there’s also the fact that giving out that term implies “I know I’ll have to deal with this later in the last couple years of the contract” and he’s shown zero willingness to do that.
 

kihei

McEnroe: The older I get, the better I used to be.
Jun 14, 2006
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The Kraken have become the most uninteresting team in the NHL and maybe all of hockey. This is on Francis as he had ample opportunity with an expansion draft and high picks. Signing free agents like Oleksiak and Larsson to over payments? Jaden Schwartz? Up and down the roster just a boring team that let some good ones get away. New leadership in the management suite is overdue. I knew it would be a tough slog with a name as bad as the Kraken. Should have just called them the Seattle Hockey Club of Sasquatch.
This smacks of the kind of armchair quarterbacking that translates into a cheap shot. Who would have you taken ahead of Beniers and Evans? How about ahead of Wright? Sale seemed a reasonable risk given the circumstances. Larsson was arguably our best player the first three years. You can park mistakes at Francis' door for sure, but your criticism of him seems more smug and opportunistic than well reasoned.
 

majormajor

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Jun 23, 2018
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I concur. Not really drafts full of game breakers, and no real “that guy was available one pick after the Kraken selected!” revisionist history at play.

We really have no idea yet with the amateur drafting. I think they've drafted some pretty good players.

Francis drafted Marty Necas in 2017, he's only recently become a star player.
 
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Dead Coyote

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Oct 10, 2017
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I took your meaning in the point, but didn't have a lot to add as while I don't think there's a crazy high chance Francis does that (partly because he never does _anything_) there certainly isn't a non-zero chance. Look no further than the former Arizona Coyotes trading a 1st and a bunch of prospects (the one I remember off the top of my head being current Flames defenseman Kevin Bahl) for a partial season of Taylor Hall. It can and does happen.

Dude would literally argue with you that water isn't wet. Place is light years better with him blocked, just talking to you, RCH, Marquis, Fistfull, et al.
Arizona was 3rd in the conference and in like a 5 way tie for 3rd overall at that point in time with half the season left, to be fair. The trade was Merkely, who had good draft pedigree but never made it in the NHL, Bahl, who was a pretty decent piece and a 2nd round pick, Schnarr who was a 3rd round draft pick who hadn't seen any NHL time, and a conditional 1st and 3rd (top 3 protected). Hall was 2 years removed from his MVP year but had only played less than half the season. They also got Kessel that summer when he was still pretty much in his prime. Pretty different circumstances- in hindsight it was a bad move but I think that's a pretty reasonable trade at the time. Who knew they would f***ing crater after that lol.

On the topic at hand, I honestly think Francis has been okay. I have more problems with his signings in the past than now. I do think the term is a problem for Stephenson and to a lesser degree Montour but I have bigger problems with Eberle, Schwartz, and Burakovsky et al. I do wish mgmt would have just let him "tank" instead of being mediocre but whatever. I would feel a lot better about this team if we shipped most of these players out for picks and just did the Utah method of rebuilding.

That said while I don't think the culture here is a very good one, I have faith that we'll start seeing good returns on our prospects within a few years, and I think if we stay the course and get lucky (easier than you think but also easier said than done).
 

dylanmacarthur

RonFrancis dēlenda est
Nov 8, 2013
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I just don't know where Francis is going with the team. I get that he is trying to compete now and understood the Montour decision. Dunn and Montour are quite a 1-2 punch on D. But the Stephenson decision was always a big question mark. I know the intent behind it but we already have other players of his level on the team. What we needed was a true game changer.

The more I see Francis, the more I feel like he is really struggling to try to adjust to management's decision to get aggressive with winning now. I would understand if he took risks like moving out prospects and picks to get a true game-changer, but all he has done is replace mediocrity with more and older mediocrity. With no true blue-chip prospect in the wings other than Catton, it really concerns me.

For the future of the team, it may actually be best that we are out of the playoffs race at the TDL. Move Gourde, Tanev, etc. to try and get atleast 1 more 1st round pick for next season. It's strange to see an expansion team 4th season with no extra 1st round picks. Also, lets not compare us to Vegas because they went all in right from the start which we never did.
I’ve been saying this for years to the consternation of most Kraken fans.

Francis has no thesis for his management. He has no plan.
 

dylanmacarthur

RonFrancis dēlenda est
Nov 8, 2013
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I think he's done a terrible job this season and the early promise of this franchise has been wasted.

The drafting hasn't been that good. How many Wright conversations have we already had? There's prospects, but not a lot of clear stand outs despite the high picks.

Free agency he blew. Overpaid overpaid overpaid. While you might like Montour, the term and price tag is too much and Stephenson is just wasteful spending. So we have a mediocre roster with no real cap flexibility.

Bylsma is not a good NHL coach. He's worse than Hakstol and the team plays a more boring type of hockey with lesser results.

The team is so soft they make Buffalo look tough.

This was a new blank slate franchise and I so wanted to love them but I have to say this season the team leaves me flat and uninterested. I do not see any progress or bright future without changes. They are mediocre blah.

All of that is on Francis. He should go, yesterday.

(I know this will piss some fans off, but sorry, it's the cold hard truth)
So nice to see everybody else finally reach this inescapable conclusion.
 

Taswell

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Oct 4, 2017
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The Kraken have become the most uninteresting team in the NHL and maybe all of hockey. This is on Francis as he had ample opportunity with an expansion draft and high picks. Signing free agents like Oleksiak and Larsson to over payments? Jaden Schwartz? Up and down the roster just a boring team that let some good ones get away. New leadership in the management suite is overdue. I knew it would be a tough slog with a name as bad as the Kraken. Should have just called them the Seattle Hockey Club of Sasquatch.
Eh my Islanders say hi. You guys are my Western team I root for and you’re infinitely more interesting that my main team 😂
 
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GrungeHockey

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Sep 14, 2021
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So nice to see everybody else finally reach this inescapable conclusion.
Well the "I told you so's" always come out when things go bad for any team but there's a question of optimism and pessimism and you need patience in sports.
Enough time has gone by now to draw some conclusions on things like draft choices and how trades worked out. So the mistakes are cumulative and in the end something has to be changed. The logical move right now is dumping Francis.
 

Fuhrious

Registered User
Feb 3, 2004
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I’m inclined to believe what I’ve heard thrown around a couple places, at least ECH and possible even here…at the end of the season he will “fail upwards” into a higher front office position like “president of hockey operations”
 

Fistfullofbeer

Moderator
May 9, 2011
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I’m inclined to believe what I’ve heard thrown around a couple places, at least ECH and possible even here…at the end of the season he will “fail upwards” into a higher front office position like “president of hockey operations”
The end-of-season changes will be very indicative of what ownership wants. Any GM change, whether that is via a promotion or firing shows that management realizes that they need a different type of GM to fix things.

On the other hand, it would really concern me if ownership believes Francis can fix this mess.
 

majormajor

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Jun 23, 2018
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The end-of-season changes will be very indicative of what ownership wants. Any GM change, whether that is via a promotion or firing shows that management realizes that they need a different type of GM to fix things.

On the other hand, it would really concern me if ownership believes Francis can fix this mess.

From his Carolina tenure, I've long had the suspicion that Francis wanted to focus on a long term build in Seattle, while he had to make some short term moves to placate our ownership and give people something to get excited about.

And the team sucking badly, ironically, forces ownership to confront the reality that the team needs to focus on the long run, which is what Francis has been wanting to do.

Our prospects and young players seem to be doing really well. So it isn't impossible to believe that we're on a Carolina type path, in the long run.

On the other hand, his pro scouting decisions, notably the 7 year Stephenson contract (he was saying Stephenson could be an 80 pt guy??), seriously discredit any idea that Francis is the guy to fix this mess.
 

gstommylee

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Jan 31, 2012
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From his Carolina tenure, I've long had the suspicion that Francis wanted to focus on a long term build in Seattle, while he had to make some short term moves to placate our ownership and give people something to get excited about.

And the team sucking badly, ironically, forces ownership to confront the reality that the team needs to focus on the long run, which is what Francis has been wanting to do.

Our prospects and young players seem to be doing really well. So it isn't impossible to believe that we're on a Carolina type path, in the long run.

On the other hand, his pro scouting decisions, notably the 7 year Stephenson contract (he was saying Stephenson could be an 80 pt guy??), seriously discredit any idea that Francis is the guy to fix this mess.

problem is getting those talent that the team needs will also hurt us long term in regards of developing our prospects. It would be a make take to give up our best prospect (that currently arent in the NHL) just for the sake of "winning" now and turn things contending for the cup into a shorter window. Having the good quality prospects join the team full time helps balance out the roster with the cap.

Stephenson as far as we know if we were to give him better wingers could very well be a 80 point guy here.
 
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Fistfullofbeer

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May 9, 2011
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problem is getting those talent that the team needs will also hurt us long term in regards of developing our prospects. It would be a make take to give up our best prospect (that currently arent in the NHL) just for the sake of "winning" now and turn things contending for the cup into a shorter window. Having the good quality prospects join the team full time helps balance out the roster with the cap.
You may be missing the point. No one is saying we need to trade our top prospects. The fact is that our GM has signed the likes of Burakovsky, Schwartz, Stephenson, and many other mediocre players and tried to sell them as fielding a competitive team. He is already on year 4 with not much to really show for the present and/or the future. Outside of Catton, I am not confident any prospect has top-line potential on our team. And even that is far from a guarantee. If you want to build a team with the draft the least you try to do is stock up on 1st round picks by selling impending UFA's. For a team going into its 5th draft, its surprising that a team trying to build via the draft has not had any additional 1st round picks.

Stephenson as far as we know if we were to give him better wingers could very well be a 80 point guy here.
He got Stephenson on the team knowing what type of wingers were already available on the team. Defending the Stephenson signing is asinine because that was made to improve the team today not if we get elite wingers over the next 2-3 drafts and plug them in next to Stephenson when he is 34 and playing as our 3C or 4C. His underlying numbers are atrocious and his AAV and Cap hit make no sense from where the team was when he got signed.
 

majormajor

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Jun 23, 2018
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You may be missing the point. No one is saying we need to trade our top prospects. The fact is that our GM has signed the likes of Burakovsky, Schwartz, Stephenson, and many other mediocre players and tried to sell them as fielding a competitive team. He is already on year 4 with not much to really show for the present and/or the future. Outside of Catton, I am not confident any prospect has top-line potential on our team. And even that is far from a guarantee. If you want to build a team with the draft the least you try to do is stock up on 1st round picks by selling impending UFA's. For a team going into its 5th draft, its surprising that a team trying to build via the draft has not had any additional 1st round picks.

My overall attitude about the current Kraken build is not much different from the consensus here, but we've got a very good prospect pool and we are not talking about it enough. Yes we didn't accumulate extra late 1sts, but we did draft 9 players in the 2nd round in the last 3 drafts. A lot of these guys are looking good. We are building for the long run, just more subtly than many of us would like.

Anyways, I'm hoping you're enjoying watching Price, and Catton, and Miettinen, and so on, at the WJC's. It's a good show for our guys.
 

Fistfullofbeer

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May 9, 2011
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My overall attitude about the current Kraken build is not much different from the consensus here, but we've got a very good prospect pool and we are not talking about it enough. Yes we didn't accumulate extra late 1sts, but we did draft 9 players in the 2nd round in the last 3 drafts. A lot of these guys are looking good. We are building for the long run, just more subtly than many of us would like.

Anyways, I'm hoping you're enjoying watching Price, and Catton, and Miettinen, and so on, at the WJC's. It's a good show for our guys.
I love our prospect pool and have been very happy with the draft scouting done by the team. Don't get me wrong. I track their progress multiple times a week as I have them all bookmarked on Elite Prospects (Premium sub feature).

I am just not confident enough that outside of Catton any more of them can be play drivers and just look like complimentary players.

Also, the drafting issue is more about missed opportunities than any thing else. We could have had more 1st round draft picks to make the pool better than what it currently is. We could have had quality as well as quantity.

The other issue is obviously cap management. Spending to cap with this roster and our current standings is very weird. We are likely to end up with top-10 picks in two straight drafts while spending to the cap.
 
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majormajor

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I am just not confident enough that outside of Catton any more of them can be play drivers and just look like complimentary players.

All the rebuilds I've followed have humbled me about what to expect from individual prospects. I really like having a bunch of intriguing guys like we do.

Since Francis' Canes are on my mind, I'll use them as an example. It wasn't the 2nd OA pick in Svechnikov that turned into their star forward, it was the 2nd rounder in Aho. And it's the guy they took closer to mid-1st in Necas who is currently leading them in scoring.

Also, the drafting issue is more about missed opportunities than any thing else. We could have had more 1st round draft picks to make the pool better than what it currently is. We could have had quality as well as quantity.

If we could have gotten a 1st for Ebs last year I would have preferred that. But I remember thinking at the time that it was probably not an option. And guys like Larsson and Gourde could have been sold early with retention, and I would have preferred that. But I don't want to exaggerate the costs of that. We still had a pile of picks and maybe we'll only have a 2nd+3rd for Gourde this year instead of a late 1st but it's not a huge deal. We're still selling.

The other issue is obviously cap management. Spending to cap with this roster and our current standings is very weird. We are likely to end up with top-10 picks in two straight drafts while spending to the cap.

It's not really weird, it's normal. There's only a few clubs that are under $80m in cap and a few others in the low 80s. A lot of rebuilding clubs are using all their cap. Signing guys to fill roles and then rent out later, trying to sell something to their fans, etc... This is what a lot of rebuilds look like, believe it or not.
 

Fuhrious

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Feb 3, 2004
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The other issue is obviously cap management. Spending to cap with this roster and our current standings is very weird. We are likely to end up with top-10 picks in two straight drafts while spending to the cap.
This part strikes me as particularly odd. You don’t see it often, if ever. Usually tanking teams struggle to hit the cap floor.
 

majormajor

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This part strikes me as particularly odd. You don’t see it often, if ever. Usually tanking teams struggle to hit the cap floor.


No offense but this is one of the biggest myths that we see recycled on HF.

There are only three teams under $80m in cap. Montreal is at $91m with LTIR and a real cap just under the limit.

My Jackets have been rebuilding for five years and this is the first year they aren't at the cap limit!

Or they take on bad contracts for additional draft picks filling up the cap space.

That is something I'd like to see us do more in the next year, as long as the contracts don't have more than two years left on them.
 

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