Roberto Luongo

[Killion]

No, the truth is, the list of starting goalies of the Vancouver Canucks during the years between each of Brodeur, McLean, and Luongo, is quite crappy.

I wasnt meaning to imply that Canucks have the same history as the Hab's, more the same sort of history in giving attention to & scrutinizing players. Often times unrealistic expectations. And in keeping with that meme', I submit that Cloutier, Auld, Gary Bromley, Cesare Maniago, Murray Bannerman, John Garret, Rick Heinz et al?. Became clinically depressed living with the rain, never realizing their full potential.

 

[MXD]

... Luongo needs more than an individual award.

At this point, when I think Luongo, I think Mike Liut.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

It seems that goalies have a harder time getting into the HHOF.

I think it has something to do with how they weight Cup wins for entrance to the HHOF. Each year only 2 goaltenders get their named inscribed on the Cup while anywhere from 20-25 skaters get the same honour. It's a lot harder to win the Cup as a goaltender, and quite frankly its unfair to judge a goalies Cup win the same as a skaters.

 

[SidGenoMario]

It's really unfair how high the bar is set for goalies.

Either that or it's disgusting how low the bar is set for forwards.

Either way there's a discrepancy.

 

[Big Phil]

It seems that goalies have a harder time getting into the HHOF.

Out of the three positions goalies generally have the strictest standards. There are ample complaints about forwards in the HHOF and a couple about defensemen (Boivin) but with the exception of Cheevers by some posters there isn't another goalie that forces anyone to raise an eyebrow. The HHOF has done something very special in that the goalies in the HHOF are always reserved for the truly elite. Mike Vernon and Rogie Vachon probably should get in by my standards but I still like how there are rarely any arguments that the standards get lowered with goalies.

As for Luongo, I have to say that goalies who take their teams far into the playoffs always seem to be put on a pedestal higher than the ones who bomb early. Some people think this might be unfair, but think of it this way. At the end of the day do you remember the quarterbacks in the NFL who fail miserably in the postseason or are Joe Montana and such more highly revered? I think the latter, and for good reason. This is the REAL season in the NHL now with the playoffs approaching and goalies more than anything have a stigma on them if they can't lead their teams anywhere. This is why Luongo has to get into the consiousness of the fans deeper into the postseason so that when all is said and done we remember him as a goalie who was relevant in the playoffs rather than a goalie who has a good track record in Vezina voting but never made an impact in the playoffs, think Mike Liut.

 

[RECsGuy*]

Some food for thought...

Here's the career numbers/accolades of Roberto Luongo, 32-years-old, vs. those of Ed Belfour, a goaltender most consider a slam-dunk HHOF candidate:

49.77 W% (325W-328L)
2.52 GAA (1,711 GA/678.31667 GMS [40,699 MINS])
91.93 SV% (19,480 SVS/21,191 SA)
56 SO

(2) 2nd Team All-Star selections
(1) Olympic Gold

vs.

58.73 W% (572W-402L)
2.45 GAA (2,676 GA/1,094 GP [65,640 MINS])
90.91 SV% (26,772/29,448 SA)
90 SO

Calder
(2) Vezinas
(2) 1st Team All-Star selections
2nd Team All-Star selection
Stanley Cup

 

[Derick*]

I think Luongo's chances are better than they may seem right now. The Canucks are a good team and he's got some time to get some hardware, team and individual. And the era where goalies who played their whole career with save percentage are the ones eligible only just started. As time passes the standards will likely move away from traditional hardware counting.

 

[MS]

"King" Richard Brodeur & "Captain" Kirk McLean were the only ones who in the post season elevated their games', taking the club deep & into the finals. The moniker "Goalie Graveyard" was penned by local scribes. Its a topic, including speculation about Luongo, that raises it head every spring. The Canucks fan base is an unbelievably rabid & enthusiastic bunch, unforgiving of players who commit mental errors or give anything less than their best efforts, as is the case with most in the other 29 markets, however, here, its all Canucks all the time, a highly charged hockey market, similar in many ways to Montreal. Playing goal for the Canucks' comes with the kind of attention that can be overwhelming for many. Exhibit 'A' would be Dan Cloutier, with a lengthy list that follows thereafter.....

The notion that Vancouver is a 'goalie graveyard' is completely, utterly false. It was a BS line that Brian Burke fed to the media to try and distract from his horrible failings in solving the team's goaltending issue.

Vancouver has essentially had 4 starting goalies in the last 31 years, save for the brief 1998-2001 mess Burke created :

- Richard Brodeur from 1980-1987
- Kirk McLean from 1987-1998
- Dan Cloutier from 2001-2006
- Roberto Luongo from 2006-present.

Brodeur and Cloutier had ridiculously long tenures given how crap they were for the bulk of their time as Canucks, and McLean hung around for another 3 years after his play fell to pieces in 1995.

If anything, Vancouver is goalie freaking paradise, where if you establish yourself as a starter you get an endless leash and multiple failings with no consequences. Where crap goalies like Brodeur and Bob Essensa get turned into cult heroes. Where Luongo is turned into a god when he provides Vezina-level goalkeeping.

Philly in the past 20 years has been a 'goalie graveyard'. Vancouver isn't even close.

__________


As for Luongo, he's an odd case because he's probably the unluckiest goalie ever in terms of Vezina voting. He's had 3 seasons that were clearly 'Vezina calibre' but didn't win in any of them.

2003-04, he was absolutely sick on a brutal Florida team, but because the team didn't make the playoffs (and because his W-L record wasn't great, obviously) he didn't get the votes he should have. He was probably the best goalie in the league that year.

2006-07 he had one of the best seasons of any netminder in history, and was absolutely jobbed in the Vezina voting in favour of Brodeur. And even if you accept that Brodeur's season was better (it wasn't), the year that Luongo had that season would have cakewalked to the Vezina in every other year between 2005 and 2010.

This season, again, he's had a year that would probably have won the Vezina in 2009 or 2010. But he's unlucky again as it goes against the year where Tim Thomas sets the NHL single-season save % record.

With a bit of luck, Luongo should have 2 Vezinas right now. He's been clearly better than Tim Thomas has in the cumulative 2005-2011 period, but Thomas is going to have a couple Vezinas to show for that stretch.

 

[NICO NICO PANIC]

It is incredibly difficult for a goaltender to establish themselves as elite, solely because there are so few goaltenders to begin with. With such a small population of goaltenders in the league at any given time, you're only going to take the most accomplished individuals of that group as a means for judging whether or not they deserve an honor such as the Hall of Fame.

As there are twelve forwards playing for a team at any given time, it is easier for forwards to establish themselves as elite. However, no one will argue that elite defensemen are harder to come by than elite forwards. This is simply because less of them are going to stand out amongst the competition, due to there being less of them on the ice.

Given this information, a forward classified as "very good" will have a lot more leeway than a "very good" defenseman or a "very good" goalie. Luongo is in this range.

As of now, I feel that the HOF voters will go against Luongo, because he has yet to obtain any individual accolades that are tremendously valuable when judging a goaltender's candidacy. Yes, he has an Olympic gold medal, but that will not be enough. One could argue instances where he did deserve accolades. However, the voters are not going to value second-place finishes if Luongo never finishes first.

However, you can not argue against Lu's tremendous statistics. If Luongo wants to have a chance at the Hall, he needs hardware. I believe that any one of a Vezina or Stanley Cup will push him over the top. Accolades elevate great goaltenders into immortal legends. Goaltenders that are unable to win anything largely fade into irrelevance. This is why an individual such as Curtis Joseph will likely struggle to obtain candidacy, because he has no accolades to show for his career.

Goalies are unfairly scrutinized for the Hall of Fame. However, goalies that are able to transcend greatness are certainly worthy. Luongo has the statistics, now he just needs the hardware.

Toodles.

- Larsson

 

[JaymzB]

To even try and compare the pressure in Vancouver to Montreal on a goalie is a laughable exercise. Montreal is a city that turned on Dryden in 78/9, calling for Bunny Laroque to become the starter (this after 3 Cups in a row). Fans in 93 after game 2 vs. Quebec were flooding the phone lines, demanding Andre Raciot to start game 3. Jocelyn Thibault was a promising young goalie who was almost literally broken by the experience in Montreal. You could almost see the confidence leave him game to game. Jose Theodore turned in a season for the ages in 2001/2, only to be heckled the following season. And Carey Price…well, I don’t need to describe what happened to him.

Don’t forget, this is a city that way back when booed Jean Beliveau. Guy Lafleur was not getting much love near the end of his tenure either. Hell, there were people boo’ing at Bob Gainey’s jersey retirement ceremony, because of his GM’ing.

 

[SidGenoMario]

Does he really need hardware? Isn't being one of the best of his generation good enough? Being one of the very best dmen of your generation would get you in, why do goalies have such strict restrictions?

 

[revolverjgw]

Does he really need hardware? Isn't being one of the best of his generation good enough? Being one of the very best dmen of your generation would get you in, why do goalies have such strict restrictions?

I agree. Besides, Luongo has had a few seasons where he played at a level superior to that of some Vezina winners. He has tons of high-end seasons and incredible consistency, but hasn't had many breaks, what with being drafted by a crap team, playing (superbly) for another crap team for half his career, finishing runner-up to some incredible individual performances... hardware counting can be useful, but it's flawed and often ignores context. His play speaks for itself.

 

[Unaffiliated]

Does he really need hardware? Isn't being one of the best of his generation good enough? Being one of the very best dmen of your generation would get you in, why do goalies have such strict restrictions?

Just curious: are you referring to a specific person here?

edit: what I mean is, is there a defenseman who got in recently without a Norris?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The notion that Vancouver is a 'goalie graveyard' is completely, utterly false. It was a BS line that Brian Burke fed to the media to try and distract from his horrible failings in solving the team's goaltending issue.

Vancouver has essentially had 4 starting goalies in the last 31 years, save for the brief 1998-2001 mess Burke created :

- Richard Brodeur from 1980-1987
- Kirk McLean from 1987-1998
- Dan Cloutier from 2001-2006
- Roberto Luongo from 2006-present.

Brodeur and Cloutier had ridiculously long tenures given how crap they were for the bulk of their time as Canucks, and McLean hung around for another 3 years after his play fell to pieces in 1995.

If anything, Vancouver is goalie freaking paradise, where if you establish yourself as a starter you get an endless leash and multiple failings with no consequences. Where crap goalies like Brodeur and Bob Essensa get turned into cult heroes. Where Luongo is turned into a god when he provides Vezina-level goalkeeping.

Philly in the past 20 years has been a 'goalie graveyard'. Vancouver isn't even close.

fantastic post. i agree with everything you've said.

just to add to that, the city does tend to turn on the starter at times when he falters, but only because it is clear that management will do nothing to change the situation and that, come playoff time or the stretch run, it was going to be the status quo in net. guys we've talked ourselves into falling in love with in the last twenty years because we were fed up with the starter: troy gamble, "the stamp," arturs irbe, bob essensa, peter skudra, johan hedberg, alex auld (those last three were all cloutier). this is a city where people still talk about how we should have played mika noronen down the stretch. though to be fair, i still maintain we should have rode irbe that one year.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Just curious: are you referring to a specific person here?

edit: what I mean is, is there a defenseman who got in recently without a Norris?

scott stevens, who is unassailable. but i suspect the case he means is larry murphy. but murphy is the exception (four cups), not the rule.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brodeur had better says across the board than Luongo in 2006-07, playing behind a worse defense. Nobody was jobbed. Luongo was just unlucky to have the best season of his career the same time Brodeur had his beat regular season.

The Florida thing is understandable, Luongo's save percentage was ridiculous, but not even Hasek won the vezina when his team didn't male the playoffs.

 

[Big Phil]

To even try and compare the pressure in Vancouver to Montreal on a goalie is a laughable exercise. Montreal is a city that turned on Dryden in 78/9, calling for Bunny Laroque to become the starter (this after 3 Cups in a row). Fans in 93 after game 2 vs. Quebec were flooding the phone lines, demanding Andre Raciot to start game 3. Jocelyn Thibault was a promising young goalie who was almost literally broken by the experience in Montreal. You could almost see the confidence leave him game to game. Jose Theodore turned in a season for the ages in 2001/2, only to be heckled the following season. And Carey Price…well, I don’t need to describe what happened to him.

Don’t forget, this is a city that way back when booed Jean Beliveau. Guy Lafleur was not getting much love near the end of his tenure either. Hell, there were people boo’ing at Bob Gainey’s jersey retirement ceremony, because of his GM’ing.

Don't worry, any hockey fan worth their salt know that perhaps only Philly has cruder and more classless fans than Montreal. Just watch next week when they boo the American anthem in the postseason when Boston comes into town. It's like clockwork. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Carey Price literally has a HHOF career torn from him because of his spirits being broken.

 

[PaPaDee]

He needs to have some more playoff success. If he could put together some decent playoff runs, he probably has a shot.

 

[Hardyvan123]

scott stevens, who is unassailable. but i suspect the case he means is larry murphy. but murphy is the exception (four cups), not the rule.

Murphy is the exception and although I'm not sure that he belongs in the Hall he does have a very long and productive career and a significant role on 4 Cup teams and an extremely strong playoff resume as well.

Here is where he stands in playoff scoring during his playing time, some pretty impressive company he is keeping.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Lets see how Lou ages and what his final stamp is on the game.

My bet is that the way that goalies have been treated by the hall is that he does not get in.

 

[Killion]

The notion that Vancouver is a 'goalie graveyard' is completely, utterly false....

I couldnt remember if it was Burke or Gallagher that came up with "Goalie Graveyard". Excellent post MS.

 

[MS]

Brodeur had better says across the board than Luongo in 2006-07, playing behind a worse defense. Nobody was jobbed. Luongo was just unlucky to have the best season of his career the same time Brodeur had his beat regular season.

Luongo and Brodeur's numbers were absolutely identical. Brodeur had a miniscule advantage in GAA and save % that was equivalent to less than one goal over an entire season.

Which is fine.

Except Brodeur played on the team that gave up the fewest PPs in the league by a wide margin, while Luongo played on the team that gave up the 27th-fewest.

That means that Luongo posted exactly identical numbers while facing 170 more PPs over the course of the season. That's an extra 2.5 PPs/game.

If you gave Brodeur an extra 170 PPs to face that year, with his PP save % which was in the .880s, Luongo's numbers would have obliterated Brodeur's.

NJ was the easiest team in the league to play goal behind at that time. The notion that their defense was 'better than Vancouver's' is ridiculous. They were the best trapping team in the league 5-on-5, and were almost never shorthanded.

Luongo, on the other hand, was playing behind a kinda crap team that missed the playoffs the year before and after, handed away PPs like candy, and single-handedly won them the division title, when the rest of the club was a fringe playoff team. His performance in the 2nd half of that season was absolutely super-human, and might be the best 40 games of netminding ever played by an NHL netminder. His save % was up around .940 in the 2nd half, and he was stealing games almost every single night. Brodeur was never, ever that good.

If you want another great stat from that year, compare the number of 1-goal games that each goalie played in (ie. games where goaltending was a factor in the result, and the goalie was forced to make pressure saves). Luongo's advantage is absolutely enormous (I used to have the numbers in front of me, but don't anymore - IIRC it was nearly double).

So, yeah, Luongo was jobbed in 2007. Brodeur was good, but Luongo was the best goalie in the league that year, and had one of the best single-season netminding performances in NHL history.

(I'm stealing the research on the PP numbers from another poster on the Canuck board)

The Florida thing is understandable, Luongo's save percentage was ridiculous, but not even Hasek won the vezina when his team didn't male the playoffs.

Agreed here - Hasek should have won in 1996 but I don't think a goalie will ever win the Vezina without making the playoffs. Same with a position player winning the Hart.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So your whole argument that Luongo got jobbed is the powerplay thing? That might make up for the fact that he got to play behind three defensemen better defensively than anyone on NJ that year - Mitchell, Salo, and Ohlund. Paul Martin would not start to develop into a credible top pairing guy until the following year, Colin White had an injury-riddled season and was much worse than the year before. Brian Rafalski, an awful one-on-one player led the team in ice tume by a wide margin. NJ in 2006-07 was a dreadful team - the worst Devils team since they first became a contender, until the first half of this year. The fact that they finished 2nd in the East should have given Brodeur far more Hart consideration than he did get.

 

[overpass]

Luongo and Brodeur's numbers were absolutely identical. Brodeur had a miniscule advantage in GAA and save % that was equivalent to less than one goal over an entire season.

Which is fine.

Except Brodeur played on the team that gave up the fewest PPs in the league by a wide margin, while Luongo played on the team that gave up the 27th-fewest.

That means that Luongo posted exactly identical numbers while facing 170 more PPs over the course of the season. That's an extra 2.5 PPs/game.

If you gave Brodeur an extra 170 PPs to face that year, with his PP save % which was in the .880s, Luongo's numbers would have obliterated Brodeur's.

NJ was the easiest team in the league to play goal behind at that time. The notion that their defense was 'better than Vancouver's' is ridiculous. They were the best trapping team in the league 5-on-5, and were almost never shorthanded.

Luongo, on the other hand, was playing behind a kinda crap team that missed the playoffs the year before and after, handed away PPs like candy, and single-handedly won them the division title, when the rest of the club was a fringe playoff team. His performance in the 2nd half of that season was absolutely super-human, and might be the best 40 games of netminding ever played by an NHL netminder. His save % was up around .940 in the 2nd half, and he was stealing games almost every single night. Brodeur was never, ever that good.

If you want another great stat from that year, compare the number of 1-goal games that each goalie played in (ie. games where goaltending was a factor in the result, and the goalie was forced to make pressure saves). Luongo's advantage is absolutely enormous (I used to have the numbers in front of me, but don't anymore - IIRC it was nearly double).

So, yeah, Luongo was jobbed in 2007. Brodeur was good, but Luongo was the best goalie in the league that year, and had one of the best single-season netminding performances in NHL history.

(I'm stealing the research on the PP numbers from another poster on the Canuck board)

Brodeur-Luongo that season was a great example of Simpson's Paradox, where a trend that is present in multiple groups is reversed when the groups are combined. Luongo's save percentage was better at even strength, on the power play, and while shorthanded. But because the distribution of shots was different, Brodeur had the higher overall save percentage when all shots were combined.

But there's not really any need to fight the 2004 and 2007 Vezina battles all over again. Even if you don't think Luongo deserved the Vezina in those seasons, they were absolutely Vezina-quality seasons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Has there ever been a study done on the effects of a goalie's puck handling on team penalty minutes?

Okay, I'm done now.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Some food for thought...

Here's the career numbers/accolades of Roberto Luongo, 32-years-old, vs. those of Ed Belfour, a goaltender most consider a slam-dunk HHOF candidate:

49.77 W% (325W-328L)
2.52 GAA (1,711 GA/678.31667 GMS [40,699 MINS])
91.93 SV% (19,480 SVS/21,191 SA)
56 SO

(2) 2nd Team All-Star selections
(1) Olympic Gold

vs.

58.73 W% (572W-402L)
2.45 GAA (2,676 GA/1,094 GP [65,640 MINS])
90.91 SV% (26,772/29,448 SA)
90 SO

Calder
(2) Vezinas
(2) 1st Team All-Star selections
2nd Team All-Star selection
Stanley Cup

The NHL that Belfour started out playing in and won 2 Vezina's in was a far more offensive oriented league. So his career stats in Sv Pct/GAA would be effected by this

Goalies in early 90's with GAA mid 2 and SV pct .900-.910 were considered elite