Riga sole host for 2021 world championships (Mod warning in post #204)

[vorky]

Starting from the end. I have no idea why you are surprised.

Ad Fasel´s words on Kummola. Your construct of not being pressured is just fine. But we are not living in a vacuum. We read the news. We understand global processes. We know the position of some countries towards Belarus. And Kummola is doing the same. Agree that they all use human rights as an argument, and it is correct. But the point is the question - are not they sometimes misusing this argumentation for achieving their (political & others) goals? You believe Kummola that his intentions were not politically motivated. And you have all right to believe him.

And yes, Fasel says that the pressure is being made on the IIHF and him personally as well. The pressure from politicians from so-called Western countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland to name a few. And he says the same pressure is being made on Kummola, who can not need to even realize (be aware of) it. Of course, that Kummola can think there is no pressure, but in reality, there is. Or is Kummola living outside this planet?

Yes, Kummola did not do enough to defend the idea of human rights. And Belarussians stopped listening? Then, it means the Kummola group failed in their mission.

But, I did not want to discuss this Kummola personality. I just worry about the future of European hockey. And that is the problem & the direct responsibility of men (women) leading the hockey federations in their countries. I would expect from them to fully concentrate on developing the game of hockey in Europe (including club hockey) instead of talking where, when and how the IIHF Worlds take place.

Nobody (in this thread) is discussing another important message. I will try to sum it up. So, the hockey federations in certain European countries are playing a dangerous game. The most active countries are Sweden & Finland. They are playing a game where they have no business. The most tragic result of that game may be a regress of the popularity & importance of the game of hockey in Europe.

Look at the status quo. The named national hockey federations are taking steps to make the European hockey, including club hockey, as irrelevant as possible. That is a very bad signal for the future. The previous decade has shown us that these hockey federations are not able to run pro hockey (look at their project - Champions Hockey League - death child). Some unnamed hockey federations have blocked the development of club hockey scene in Europe (Fasel & big European hockey league as one conference of the KHL). The same hockey federations, led by Sweden, are not able to negotiate fair transfer rules with NHL, the rules benefiting the European clubs. If speaking about national teams, the Euro Hockey Tour is criticised by many. There is no European competition for national teams (football has EURO, other sports have their European Championships).

Conclusion, even if I really try, I do not see any positive moves done by certain national hockey federations in Europe in the last decade. All their decisions are resulting in hockey becoming less & less important for a general audience. And that is not good, at all.

So, this Minsk decision is a final nail in a coffin.

 

[FiLe]

And yes, Fasel says that the pressure is being made on the IIHF and him personally as well. The pressure from politicians from so-called Western countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland to name a few.

I'd say Fasel is feeling the pressure not just from the so-called Western countries.

Yes, Kummola did not do enough to defend the idea of human rights. And Belarussians stopped listening? Then, it means the Kummola group failed in their mission.

The Belarussians didn't "stop listening" - they weren't willing to listen in the first place. You're also a bit mistaken about what the "mission" was. It wasn't to make the Belarussian officials listen, as that is not the job of a bunch of hockey bosses - it's the job of the citizens of Belarus protesting the current regiment and the international community. The mission of the hockey bosses like Kummola was to take the tournament away from a party they deemed unsuitable in organizing it. And in that they were highly successful.

But, I did not want to discuss this Kummola personality. I just worry about the future of European hockey. And that is the problem & the direct responsibility of men (women) leading the hockey federations in their countries. I would expect from them to fully concentrate on developing the game of hockey in Europe (including club hockey) instead of talking where, when and how the IIHF Worlds take place.

These are very agreeable goals. But if this is what you really want, then I have to ask, what are you doing in this thread? If it's all the same to you where the IIHF Worlds take place, then you should have no problem that it's not being organized in Belarus. At the same time, you can let the people who do care about these issues have their day. After all, developing the game and making sure there are as little ethics issues as possible are by no means - and shouldn't be - mutually exclusive goals. Or do you disagree? As a matter of fact, I'd say the two go hand in hand - for in order for the game to grow, its public image should be as spotless as possible.

 

[vorky]

The Belarussians didn't "stop listening" - they weren't willing to listen in the first place. You're also a bit mistaken about what the "mission" was. It wasn't to make the Belarussian officials listen, as that is not the job of a bunch of hockey bosses - it's the job of the citizens of Belarus protesting the current regiment and the international community. The mission of the hockey bosses like Kummola was to take the tournament away from a party they deemed unsuitable in organizing it. And in that they were highly successful.

Perhaps mine & your interpretation is different. Because when someone is using the words human rights, then I understand that his (her) true & only intention is to defend the idea, not to achieve other goals. I am asking you, is the status quo of human rights in Belarus better than before Kummola´s activity? Did Kummola help the Belarusian citizens with the protection of human rights? But yeah, you have already replied with "not the job of a bunch of hockey bosses." Agree, but then I need to ask again, why did Kummola use this argument? Or he did not use (even indirectly)?

These are very agreeable goals. But if this is what you really want, then I have to ask, what are you doing in this thread? If it's all the same to you where the IIHF Worlds take place, then you should have no problem that it's not being organized in Belarus. At the same time, you can let the people who do care about these issues have their day. After all, developing the game and making sure there are as little ethics issues as possible are by no means - and shouldn't be - mutually exclusive goals. Or do you disagree? As a matter of fact, I'd say the two go hand in hand - for in order for the game to grow, its public image should be as spotless as possible.

In connection to current development with IIHF Worlds, I pointed out on a fact that these hockey officials fail with their first & foremost job - developing hockey in Europe, including club hockey.

 

[FiLe]

Perhaps mine & your interpretation is different. Because when someone is using the words human rights, then I understand that his (her) true & only intention is to defend the idea, not to achieve other goals. I am asking you, is the status quo of human rights in Belarus better than before Kummola´s activity? Did Kummola help the Belarusian citizens with the protection of human rights? But yeah, you have already replied with "not the job of a bunch of hockey bosses." Agree, but then I need to ask again, why did Kummola use this argument? Or he did not use (even indirectly)?

Kummola said that one his personal motivations for stripping Belarus the hosting rights was the country's human rights situation. That's what he set out to do, and I'd say it's what he achieved. Did his actions improve the human rights situation in Belarus? Well, it likely didn't. But neither did he bolster the goals of those who seek to uphold the status quo. So he didn't make a bad situation better, but his actions may have helped in not turning that bad situation even worse. History will tell us if that was the case.

In connection to current development with IIHF Worlds, I pointed out on a fact that these hockey officials fail with their first & foremost job - developing hockey in Europe, including club hockey.

So you're saying that somehow they can't take a strong ethical stance and develop hockey in Europe at the same time? If you're really making that argument, then listen - the only people who make it are those who don't care about the ethical side at all. People who only pay it token lip service and make disingenuous arguments in support of those who would further erode it for their own personal gain, fully aware of the fact. And if you are one of them, this conversation is over.

 

[Tuoppi]

How about Tallinn it is close to Riga?

 

[vorky]

Kummola said that one his personal motivations for stripping Belarus the hosting rights was the country's human rights situation. That's what he set out to do, and I'd say it's what he achieved. Did his actions improve the human rights situation in Belarus? Well, it likely didn't. But neither did he bolster the goals of those who seek to uphold the status quo. So he didn't make a bad situation better, but his actions may have helped in not turning that bad situation even worse. History will tell us if that was the case.

"Well, it likely didn't." - so we have come to a conclusion.

So you're saying that somehow they can't take a strong ethical stance and develop hockey in Europe at the same time? If you're really making that argument, then listen - the only people who make it are those who don't care about the ethical side at all. People who only pay it token lip service and make disingenuous arguments in support of those who would further erode it for their own personal gain, fully aware of the fact. And if you are one of them, this conversation is over.

Of course, they can & should. But, I do not see some big positives trends in European (club) hockey coming from these officials in their respective countries in the last decade or even more.

 

[Albatros]

How about Tallinn it is close to Riga?

What would be in it for the Estonians, given they don't have their team in the tournament?

 

[FiLe]

"Well, it likely didn't." - so we have come to a conclusion.

If you agree with everything else I said, then yes we have. As in, even if it didn't change anything, it also didn't help maintain the status quo or even make it worse.

Of course, they can & should.

I'm glad that we agree on this too. Because it means that what they did here didn't, at the very least, hinder that development. And it also means that while it's not a guarantee it's going to introduce any sweeping changes going forward, and there remains a lot of work to be done, it's a small victory we can enjoy regardless. Right?

 

[vorky]

If you agree with everything else I said, then yes we have. As in, even if it didn't change anything, it also didn't help maintain the status quo or even make it worse.

I'm glad that we agree on this too. Because it means that what they did here didn't, at the very least, hinder that development. And it also means that while it's not a guarantee it's going to introduce any sweeping changes going forward, and there remains a lot of work to be done, it's a small victory we can enjoy regardless. Right?

I would just finish this debate by repeating myself. When someone is using the words of human rights as (direct or indirect) argument, then I understand that his (her) true & only intention is to defend the idea, not to achieve other (direct or indirect) goals (of any kind) of anybody. It is up to everyone to decide what has been done in this case and if there are any direct or indirect benefits for anybody involved.

 

[Jussi]

An interesting idea appeared on Latvian media yesterday - apparently, Lithuania has offered help to Latvia, to host a part of the tournament. That would be odd, but, without their NT requesting a place in Top Div, it would probably be a slightly safer scenario for two groups from logistics standpoint. This topic doesn't allow me to go into, why Lithuania might be interested, but still some news.

N.B. Latvian government will likely make no exceptions for this tournament concerning how many people can watch them. Currently live audiences for indoor sports have been banned entirely since November. In September, October 1000 people were allowed to attend games at Arena Riga. Let's hope that we have improvements by May, but those still will be last-minute decisions by the Latvian government, so, I guess, will limit severely foreign fans planning their trips 1-2 months in advance.

As I said before, if fans are allowed, I'd imagine it's "vaccinated only". Let's hope they can get those global "vaccination passes" ready before the tournament. I know the EU is already working on it. Euro 2021 would be hard to do without one as well.

 

[FiLe]

When someone is using the words of human rights as (direct or indirect) argument, then I understand that his (her) true & only intention is to defend the idea, not to achieve other (direct or indirect) goals (of any kind) of anybody.

Yes. And when you deny a human rights violator a day in limelight, you are acting in direct defense of human rights.

 

[Jussi]

Assuming it's not too political, it needs to be mentioned that Belarus opposition bombarded the IIHF sponsors with letters and it seems they listened. Also, repeating it again, Kummola said the IIHF council had already made the decision before any of the sponsors spoke out publicly.

 

[Jumptheshark]

will be interesting what plans the IIHF have for the worlds. I talked to the team GB guys I know and they have no idea. Team GB could have trouble icing a team due to the problems here in the UK

 

[Tuoppi]

What would be in it for the Estonians, given they don't have their team in the tournament?

Baltic brotherhood. If possible lot of Finnish tourists Finland could be swapped to that group.

 

[lilidk]

I hope we have tournament and I hope sport and politics are separate

 

[vorky]

Looks like the Prime Minister of Latvia is asking who will pay the extra expenses to Latvia in case the IIHF Worlds will take place only in Riga. How a bizarre situation. At first, they supported the IIHF with moving the championship and now asking who will pay for it? Hoping Latvia is wealthy enough to pay all bills without any issue.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Looks like the Prime Minister of Latvia is asking who will pay the extra expenses to Latvia in case the IIHF Worlds will take place only in Riga. How a bizarre situation. At first, they supported the IIHF with moving the championship and now asking who will pay for it? Hoping Latvia is wealthy enough to pay all bills without any issue.

My guess they will halve the tourney

 

[filip85]

My guess they will halve the tourney

How playing teams would be determined ? My guess in that case most "fair" would be quarterfinalists from 2019...

 

[SoundAndFury]

Baltic brotherhood. If possible lot of Finnish tourists Finland could be swapped to that group.

So Lithuania actually tried piggybacking Latvia and our PM had a conference with Fasel (aka zoom call) but were shut down due to lack of experience organizing such events. Denmark and Slovakia are still on the shortlist of options.

What would be in it for the Estonians, given they don't have their team in the tournament?

The usual. Money, reputation, etc. But I don't think Tallinn even has arena of sufficient size to be honest.

 

[Albatros]

The usual. Money, reputation, etc. But I don't think Tallinn even has arena of sufficient size to be honest.

With attendance maybe, but without it there would have to be other perks on the table, someone else paying the bills or special access for the Estonian team. Tondiraba jäähall would be a nice facility as such for no or limited attendance, or the larger Saku Suurhall can have an ice surface too when needed.

 

[SoundAndFury]

With attendance maybe, but without it there would have to be other perks on the table, someone else paying the bills or special access for the Estonian team. Tondiraba jäähall would be a nice facility as such for no or limited attendance, or the larger Saku Suurhall can have an ice surface too when needed.

Seriously, I completely forgot arena size is as irrelevant as they come these days

 

[MoeTheHobo]

Euro 2121 would be hard to do without one as well.

Surely we will have a new pandemic by then

 

[Rob]

Is cancelling still an option?

 

[Jussi]

Is cancelling still an option?

Nope.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Nope.

I think if it goes a head it will not be it's normal size.