Rielly vs Ristolainen

[Halla]

Wouldn't trade Risto for Rielly.

leafs fans wouldnt do the opposite either. 16pts in 19 games. An even +/- thus far despite playing against the opponents best every nigh. Rielly has arrived as a top pairing dman

 

[Halla]

No he's not. Our defense has been better than ever. Big B & Myers both top on their game. They are shutting down opponents night after night. And gives so much help for our offense.

Myers> Rielly?

thats is laughable. want me to make a poll so it gets shut down when its 19-1, with the 1 vote for myers being yours?

 

[Halla]

Risto is having his best season in terms of on-ice impact but somehow he's "not up to par"?

I have only seen a few sabres games for fantasy reasons, but he has looked awful. the poll would have been the opposite last year and risto deserved it. this year though rielly has taken a giant step forward whereas risto is at best at the same level

 

[Ainec]

Rielly this season would be the best dmen on both BUF and WPG

no disrespect to the good dmen on both teams

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Rielly this season would be the best dmen on both BUF and WPG

no disrespect to the good dmen on both teams

He wouldn't play as many minutes as Risto.

 

[Snippit]

That's not the question I asked, nor the statement made, now is it.

But a valid question, still.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

He wouldn't play as many minutes as Risto.

Just playing a lot of minutes doesn't inherently make it a good thing....Would you rather 21 well played minutes or 28 minutes of a player in over their head? I mean I think it is pretty straight forward and this isn't even me taking a shot at Risto.

 

[Brobust]

No he's not. Our defense has been better than ever. Big B & Myers both top on their game. They are shutting down opponents night after night. And gives so much help for our offense.

Underlying numbers disagree. Jets are on a hot streak right now and are getting lucky.

Their defence and PK is still atrocious.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

I like Risto, would love to have him, edge goes to Rielly

 

[Brobust]

But a valid question, still.

Valid question in 1993, I guess.

Rielly plays against top competition and that's what we know to matter more these days.

 

[Aladyyn]

Valid question in 1993, I guess.

Rielly plays against top competition and that's what we know to matter more these days.

Playing top competition for 21 minutes a night is totally the same thing as playing it for 26 minutes a night! No difference!

And is the reigning Norris winner not a top pairing defenseman just because he has a different role? What a stupid narrative.

 

[garyturner3]

Ristolainen clearly. I would trade Rielly to Risto any day of the week.

What a surprise coming from you. You're not exactly known for your objectivity when it comes to the Leafs so I imagine you'd also trade Rielly for Bogosian if that poll existed. You're still one of the few fans left on the Laine > Matthews delusional train. Not to mention your projection a few days ago that Matthews would finish this year with 50-55 points. Every one of your posts screams troll job.

 

[Sasso09]

last year I would have said Risto but Rielly has surpassed him for the time being

 

[Asiantuntija]

Myers> Rielly?

thats is laughable. want me to make a poll so it gets shut down when its 19-1, with the 1 vote for myers being yours?

Myers is definitely better player than Rielly. Do you realize what he was projected to be? He still has that potential and he is professor on blue line, beast on defense at the moment. We can do pool after this season, after people have more data about Myers. He is playing more than well.

 

[stl76]

What's the time on ice cut off exactly to be labeled a #1 Dman? I'm curious.

It's obviously subjective. But IMO to be accurately labeled a #1, a defenseman should AT LEAST be in the top 60 of aTOI leaguewide and in the top 2 of aTOI on his own team. He should also be at least one of these three things: elite offensively, outstanding in all situations while posting decent offensive numbers, or top end shutdown defensively.

Rielly is currently 68th among defensemen in aTOI w/ 21:07. He is currently 4th on his own team in aTOI behind Zaitsev w/ 22:55, Gardiner w/ 22:19, and Hainsey w/ 21:44.

Rielly is also 3rd in average shTOI on his own team w/ 1:29, well behind Zaitsev and Hainsey w/ 4:05 and 5:09 respectively. He is much closer to Polak at 0:56. I would argue that this lack of PK time for Rielly shows 2 things: Babcock trusts Hainsey and Zaitsev more than Rielly on the PK and that Rielly cannot truly be said to be outstanding in all situations. Rielly puts up good offensive numbers but not elite IMO, especially 5v5, and I don't think he is not a top end shutdown dman.

Therefore, he is not a legit #1 D-man.

Chris Pronger was 3rd in ice time per game among defenceman on the 2007 Ducks in the playoffs. Clearly he wasn't a #1 guy, right?

You really want to compare 2007 Pronger w/ 2017 Rielly?

Also, where are you getting your stats from? By my count, in the ducks 2006-07 playoff run, Pronger's aTOI was 30:11 second only to Beauchemin w/ 30:33 and ahead of Niedermayer w/ 29:51.

Regardless, it's a really dumb comparison. The situations are nothing alike.

 

[Matt Ress]

Chris Pronger was 3rd in ice time per game among defenceman on the 2007 Ducks in the playoffs. Clearly he wasn't a #1 guy, right?

"A" for effort digging up that anecdote.

[edit] make that an "F" for falsifying.

 

[firstemperor]

Rielly is currently 68th among defensemen in aTOI w/ 21:07. He is currently 4th on his own team in aTOI behind Zaitsev w/ 22:55, Gardiner w/ 22:19, and Hainsey w/ 21:44.

He's getting enough minutes, TOI is a stupid stat to say he's not. One of the main reasons his TOI is lower is because Hainsey plays so much of the PK, that he gets short shifted right after.

I don't think he's a #1 yet either but that's only because his underlying #'s need to sustain longer i.e. sample size. But TOI is a really dumb argument to say he's not..especially considering it's almost exclusively a coaching decision and Babcock himself is known to be stingy on minutes, short-shifting others, etc. (i.e. even Matthews compared to McLellan who throws McDavid with a short leash for long shifts, PK time, and all of the above).

 

[KGL]

Rielly, and it isn't really close anymore. Rielly is widening the gap at this point.

 

[stl76]

He's getting enough minutes, TOI is a stupid stat to say he's not. One of the main reasons his TOI is lower is because Hainsey plays so much of the PK, that he gets short shifted right after.

I don't think he's a #1 yet either but that's only because his underlying #'s need to sustain longer i.e. sample size. But TOI is a really dumb argument to say he's not..especially considering it's almost exclusively a coaching decision and Babcock himself is known to be stingy on minutes, short-shifting others, etc. (i.e. even Matthews compared to McLellan who throws McDavid with a short leash for long shifts, PK time, and all of the above).

I think you're focusing in on one small part of my criteria for a #1 dman, but I stand by the idea that a #1 dman should be in the top 60 league-wide for aTOI and in the top 2 of aTOI on his own team. Worth noting that IMO a legit #1 dman should also be at least one of these three things: elite offensively, outstanding in all situations while posting decent offensive numbers, or top end shutdown defensively.

Agreed that to a certain extent TOI is a coach's decision and out of the players' hands. However, if a dman is a legit #1, I think their play would pretty much force the coach's hand and he would earn more ice time. The fact that Hainsey plays so much PK & gets short shifted after, thus lowering Rielly's aTOI, is only further damning (IMO) to considering Rielly a legit #1. I think a legit #1 would either get more more PK time or would have to be elite offensively, in which case they would most likely make up the difference in TOI in more PP time. Regardless the aTOI would be higher.

Can you (or anyone else for that matter) think of a legit #1 dman in recent memory who has not been in the top 60 league-wide for aTOI and in the top 2 of aTOI on his own team? Maybe it depends on the definition of "legit #1 dman," and I don't want to get bogged down in semantics, but I can't think of any off hand...

 

[Brobust]

"A" for effort digging up that anecdote.

[edit] make that an "F" for falsifying.

He was off, but Beauchemin did play more than him. So let's settle on a B-.

 

[stl76]

He was off, but Beauchemin did play more than him. So let's settle on a B-.

Let's just settle on a R...for Regardless, it's a really dumb comparison lol

 

[Brobust]

Beauchemin also played 6 less games than Pronger.

Let's settle on a R...for Regardless, it's a really dumb comparison lol

Pointing to TOI as a measure of talent was dumb in the first place.

 

[stl76]

Pointing to TOI as a measure of talent was dumb in the first place.

To some extent TOI is out of the players hands and is a coaches decision. However, if you don't think there is a correlation between aTOI and talent then I don't know what to tell you.

I've already stated and explained my criteria for a #1 dman, and they are not limited to TOI. If you want to add something of value to the discussion, might I suggest explaining your own criteria for a legit #1 defenseman and whether or not Reilly meets them?

 

[TheBeastCoast]

To some extent TOI is out of the players hands and is a coaches decision. However, if you don't think there is a correlation between aTOI and talent then I don't know what to tell you.

I've already stated and explained my criteria for a #1 dman, and they are not limited to TOI. If you want to add something of value to the discussion, might I suggest explaining your own criteria for a legit #1 defenseman and whether or not Reilly meets them?

I don't disagree but in the context of this thread talking about Rielly and Risto I said this earlier would you rather have a player being used for 21 minutes and excelling in those minutes or 28 minutes and in over his head? Just because he is playing those minutes doesn't mean he should be or is capable of those minutes.

 

[Brobust]

To some extent TOI is out of the players hands and is a coaches decision. However, if you don't think there is a correlation between aTOI and talent then I don't know what to tell you.

I've already stated and explained my criteria for a #1 dman, and they are not limited to TOI. If you want to add something of value to the discussion, might I suggest explaining your own criteria for a legit #1 defenseman and whether or not Reilly meets them?

Excuse me for not going through his entire thread, which is 80% garbage, to read your criteria on number 1 defensemen.

For me it's simply QoC and production.

Rielly faces top competition. Last season he was able to tread water against top comp. and this season he's out-chancing them.

Also when we're talking about TOI, it's not as if someone is playing 25 minutes and Rielly is playing 20 minutes. The leafs have 4 guys hovering at 21-22 minutes and that's a decision made with help from their Sports Science department to limit playing time. The fact that it's being used to dump on Rielly is either ignorant or disingenuous, which is typical of Hfboards.

Auston Matthews playing 18 minutes a game, while other 1Cs play 20+ usually. Does that mean he's not a number 1 centre?