Research Thread for NHL Award and All-star Voting

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Interesting how the Hart winner, Gardiner is not on the 1st Team.

 

[MXD]

Source is Alfred L. Schoenfeld. Brooklyn Daily Eagle, April 3, 1927

“The above represents the consensus of coaches, referees, and managers of the league, the selections of New York newspaper men, George E. Timpson, Boston Christian Science Monitor, John Scott, Associated and Canadian Press and the writer as to the all-Hockey League team of 1927.

In arranging the consensus, three points were awarded for a first team selection, two for the second team and one for third. The number of points were doubled if the player was thought to be the most valuable player in the league. "

First Team
Hainsworth (Canadiens), Goal
Clancy (Ottawa), Defense
Munro (Maroons), Defense
Frederickson (Boston), Center
W. Cook (Rangers), Right Wing
Hay (Chicago), Left Wing

Second Team
J.R. Roach (Toronto), Goal
Johnson (Rangers), Defense
Gardiner (Canadiens), Defense
F. Boucher (Ranger), Center
Morenz (Canadiens), Right Wing
Joliat (Canadiens), Left Wing

Third Team
Worters (Pittsburgh), Goal
Shore (Boston), Defense
G. Boucher (Ottawa), Defense
W. Carson (Toronto), Center
Reg Smith (Ottawa), Right Wing
Irvin (Chicago), Left Wing

Honorable Mentions (in order of voting)
Goal: Benedict, Chabot
Defense: Abel, Cleghorn, Hitchman, Conacher
Center: A.P. Lepine, Burch
Right Wing: Broadbent, Dye
Left Wing: Denneny, Kilrea

Notes on voting:

• Exact point totals were not published.
• Art Duncan picked Bill Carson as the most valuable player. All other voters selected Bill Cook.
• Hainsworth and Roach were tied on points. Hainsworth had more first place votes.
• Clancy received all but one vote for first team on defense.
• Morenz also received enough votes to be the second center. He received more votes on the right side so he was placed there. Schoenfeld and George Timpson both voted for Lepine as the top center, and Schoenfeld explained “Lepine does not usually start the game, but he plays center for the most part and Morenz moves over to replace Arthur Gagne at right wing.â€
• “Joliat is undoubtedly the best stick-handler in the circuit and Hay has the hardest left-handed shot.â€

...Humm...

That's the year Herb Gardiner won the Hart, right?

 

[overpass]

Interesting how the Hart winner, Gardiner is not on the 1st Team.

It is interesting.

I also found this item from the Ottawa Journal's notes and comments on February 24, 1927.

Elmer Ferguson has come out cold turkey and announced he is for Herb Gardiner for the Hart trophy and Pete Lepine for the Lady Byng cup.

Fergy has probably not made his selections yet, and his write-up may be a bit of “come on” publicity for Canadiens to attract some favorable attention in other centres.

They had media campaigns back then, too! Ferguson, sports editor of the Montreal Herald, was the most influential hockey writer of his day. In the early days of the NHL he was responsible for compiling player scoring totals and publishing the leaders weekly.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Very good find! I don't recall ever seeing that before.

Seems like rare outward praise for George Hainsworth - who never appeared to get the press to match the numbers. Interestingly, it comes in his rookie year.

From our goalie list, this adds a little more fuel to the fire that think I started (or added some kindling to) that John Ross Roach was better than Alec Connell. Here's another year where Connell has great numbers (13 shutouts, only 30 win getter) and may not have gotten a single vote...

Interesting stuff...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So what were the 4 years that Roy Worters was voted league's best goalie?

We know 1927-28 was one.

I had assumed that it was 1925-26, 1926-27, 1927-28, and 1928-29, but that is obviously incorrect.

Worters did finish 1st in Hart voting among goalies in 1926-27, but not with a significant number of votes (tied 10th overall)

 

[Sanf]

Great find! Believe me I have tried to find this one

From our goalie list, this adds a little more fuel to the fire that think I started (or added some kindling to) that John Ross Roach was better than Alec Connell. Here's another year where Connell has great numbers (13 shutouts, only 30 win getter) and may not have gotten a single vote...

And I disagreed with you. Since then I have went through the early 1920´s from few newspapers. There wasn´t annual All-Star selection then so that time is kind of lumped to be Clint Benedicts era. Benedict and Vezina might have overally been better than Roach, but I have to admit that I have been impressed what I have been reading about him.

So yeah I have to admit that Connell and Roach could be very close and maybe Roach was even better. I still believe that his Rangers years were disapointment. Colourful departure from Rangers and ending up to Lester Patricks bad books might have affected to his Hall Of Fame chances?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

One thing not mentioned is that this is even more meat to Ching Johnson's record. He's now at least a 3 time 1st Team All-Star and 3 time 2nd Team All-Star

 

[seventieslord]

and who would have guessed Shore was only a 3rd teamer that season?

 

[Plural]

I just stumbled upon a weird error on Hockey-Reference.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-2010.html#AS

Minnesota goalie Backs is listed as 4th in All-Star voting for C. Obviously it is just a quirck due to name being same than WAS Center.

You guys know any more of these errors?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just stumbled upon a weird error on Hockey-Reference.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/voting-2010.html#AS

Minnesota goalie Backs is listed as 4th in All-Star voting for C. Obviously it is just a quirck due to name being same than WAS Center.

You guys know any more of these errors?

Another is that Mike Ricci's Selke votes in 2003-04 were given to Brad Richards by H-R. I've seen other transcription errors, as well.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Found this blurb in the Calgary Herald, 3/21/1919:

VANCOUVER, March 20 - An afternoon paper carries the following:

Who is the greatest defense player in professional hockey today? Pacific Coast students of the puck chasing game would name Rowe, Johnson or Duncan, but according to eastern critics, Harry Cameron of the Ottawa team carries off the crown. The Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal press rate Cameron as the best in the game today. In the world's series a year ago he was one of the big stars, and Vancouver attributes its defeat chiefly to his wonderful work.

[goes on to talk about Cameron's role in the Senators' ongoing exhibition tour]

Tough to tell if this is reporting the results of an actual survey, or just describing general consensus. If it's the former, this is sort of a proto-1AS for Harry Cameron.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Found this blurb in the Calgary Herald, 3/21/1919:



Tough to tell if this is reporting the results of an actual survey, or just describing general consensus. If it's the former, this is sort of a proto-1AS for Harry Cameron.

Interesting that when talking about the best defensive player in the game they are talking about his puck chasing ability.

Even today with being able to watch every minute of every player and detailed time use stats we can't really agree as to which forward is the best defensive player, although there are a top tier of guys in contention in Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar (probably overlooking a couple of guys off the top of my head here).

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting that when talking about the best defensive player in the game they are talking about his puck chasing ability.

Even today with being able to watch every minute of every player and detailed time use stats we can't really agree as to which forward is the best defensive player, although there are a top tier of guys in contention in Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar (probably overlooking a couple of guys off the top of my head here).

If you actually think there's an indication they may be merely talking about Cameron's puck chasing ability, you should re-read it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah, "puck chasing game" is just a flowery phrase meaning hockey. Similar phrases appear regularly in sports writing of that era.

 

[Sanf]

Best I could find for this season was a listing to third team.

ALL-STAR TEAMS: 6 NHL coaches voted, 5-3-1 format, 25 points possible
GOALTENDER: (42/54, 6-3-3) Bill Durnan, Mtl 25 (5-0-0); Chuck Rayner, NYR 10 (0-3-1); Turk Broda, Tor 7 (1-0-2);
DEFENSE: (96/108, 12-10-6) Bill Quackenbush, Det 25 (5-0-0); Jack Stewart Det 17 (2-2-1); Glen Harmon, Mtl 15 (2-1-2); Ken Reardon, Mtl 15 (2-1-2); Pat Egan, Bos 14 (1-3-0); Jim Thomson, Tor 10 (0-3-1);
CENTER: (45/54, 5-4-1) Sid Abel, Det 21 (3-2-0); Doug Bentley, Chi 17 (2-2-1); Paul Ronty, Bos 7;
RIGHT WING: (41/54, 5-3-0) Maurice Richard, Mtl 23 (4-1-0); Gordie Howe, Det 11 (1-2-0); Bill Mosienko, Chi 7;
LEFT WING: (51/54, 6-6-3) Roy Conacher, Chi 19 (2-3-0); Ted Lindsay, Det 17 (2-2-1); Harry Watson, Tor 15 (2-1-2);

Does not make this much more complete because I don´t know about the third selection of coaches. Still here are few missing ones. From Toronto Star.

GOAL: Frank Brimsek 0-2-? Harry Lumley 0-1-?
DEFENSE: Bob Goldham 0-1-? Doug Harvey 0-1-?
CENTER: Paul Ronty 1-0-2 Elmer Lach 0-1-? Billy Reay 0-1-?
RIGHT WING: Bill Mosienko 1-0-2 Gus Bodnar 0-2-? Johnny Peirson 0-1-?

 

[Sanf]

There was little voting data in the final articles, so again I had to total the votes. I was only able to find 29 of the 30 votes, and there is only a one point difference between the totals given for Irvin and Day, where Irvin has 1 more point and Day 1 less than reported. That is after giving Day the 1st team vote on the missing ballot. All other totals match, or do after a vote on the missing ballot.

The missing ballot would have to have on the 1st team, Clapper and Heller on defense, right/left can't be determined, and Day as coach. Apps is almost certainly the center, but none of the articles specifically say anything to confirm this 100%. Stanowski is one of the D on the 2nd team, but otherwise no names can be confirmed.

ALL-STAR TEAMS: 29/30 voters, 1st and 2nd (3-1) format
GOALTENDER: FIRST TEAM: Turk Broda, Tor 14; Frank Brimsek, Bos 13; Johnny Mowers, Det 2
SECOND TEAM: Frank Brimsek, Bos 11; Turk Broda, Tor 10; Johnny Mowers, Det 7; Dave Kerr, NYR 1
DEFENSE: FIRST TEAM: RIGHT D: Dit Clapper, Bos 23; Earl Seibert, Chi 3; Ott Heller, NYR 2; Wally Stanowski, Tor 1
LEFT D: Wally Stanowski, Tor 9; Ott Heller, NYR 6; Dit Clapper, Bos 5; Earl Seibert, Chi 3; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 2; Des Smith, Bos 1; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Flash Hollett, Bos 1; Jack Stewart, Det 1
ALTERNATE TEAM: RIGHT D: Earl Seibert, Chi 8; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 5; Bingo Kampman, Tor 5; Jack Crawford, Bos 4; Ott Heller, NYR 2; Wally Stanowski, Tor 2; Art Coulter, NYR 1; Des Smith, Bos 1; Pat Egan, NYA 1
LEFT D: Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 6; Wilf Field, NYA 5; Wally Stanowski, Tor 5; Ott Heller, NYR 3; Art Coulter, NYR 3; Earl Seibert, Chi 2; Bingo Kampman, Tor 1; Jack Stewart, Det 1; Charlie Conacher, NYA 1; Jimmy Orlando, Det 1; Babe Pratt, NYR 1
CENTER: FIRST TEAM: Bill Cowley, Bos 20; Syl Apps, Tor 9
SECOND TEAM: Syl Apps, Tor 19; Bill Cowley, Bos 8; Neil Colville, NYR 1; Bill Thoms, Chi 1
RIGHT WING: FIRST TEAM: Bryan Hextall, NYR 15; Bobby Bauer, Bos 9; Gordie Drillon, Tor 3; Bill Cowley, Bos 1; Roy Conacher, Bos 1
SECOND TEAM: Bobby Bauer, Bos 13; Gordie Drillon, Tor 7; Bryan Hextall, NYR 6; Eddie Wiseman, Bos 2; Roy Conacher, Bos 1
LEFT WING: FIRST TEAM: Sweeney Schriner, Tor 24; Woody Dumart, Bos 3; Bryan Hextall, NYR 1; Toe Blake, Mtl 1
SECOND TEAM: Woody Dumart, Bos 12; Syd Howe, Det 9; Sweeney Schriner, Tor 3; Lynn Patrick, NYR 3; Nick Metz, Tor 1; Sid Abel, Det 1
COACH: FIRST TEAM: Cooney Weiland, Bos 15; Dick Irvin, Mtl 7; Hap Day, Tor 4; Red Dutton, NYA 2; Art Ross, Bos 1
SECOND TEAM: Dick Irvin, Mtl 11; Hap Day, Tor 8; Cooney Weiland, Bos 5; Jack Adams, Det 3; Ebbie Goodfellow, Det 1; Paul Thompson, Chi 1

Do you remember when the votes were cast this season. I remember that during this time period it was often done before the regular season ended. I remember that sometimes even as early as february.

I got interested on the theory that Vezina winner was "automatically" the 1st All-Star goalie. I see many problems with that theory. One of them ofcourse is that they could not always know who the Vezina winner would be when they were voting. IIRC Mowers lost Vezina in his last game this season. Yet he only got two votes for All-Star goalie.

 

[BM67]

Do you remember when the votes were cast this season. I remember that during this time period it was often done before the regular season ended. I remember that sometimes even as early as february.

I got interested on the theory that Vezina winner was "automatically" the 1st All-Star goalie. I see many problems with that theory. One of them ofcourse is that they could not always know who the Vezina winner would be when they were voting. IIRC Mowers lost Vezina in his last game this season. Yet he only got two votes for All-Star goalie.

The first of the votes appeared in the March 4th paper All-Stars of The NHL, so the voting was probably done sometime in February. Voting started around February 17th in 1939.

There was still two weeks left in the schedule on March 4th, so probably close to a month left when the voting was started.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1933-34 Season

So what were the 4 years that Roy Worters was voted league's best goalie?



We know 1927-28 was one.

I had assumed that it was 1925-26, 1926-27, 1927-28, and 1928-29, but that is obviously incorrect.

Worters did finish 1st in Hart voting among goalies in 1926-27, but not with a significant number of votes (tied 10th overall)

Card was issued during the 1933-34 season, so 1932-33 and before seasons are the candidates.

 

[Sanf]

The first of the votes appeared in the March 4th paper All-Stars of The NHL, so the voting was probably done sometime in February. Voting started around February 17th in 1939.

There was still two weeks left in the schedule on March 4th, so probably close to a month left when the voting was started.

Thank you! So it would seem that it was one game away that we would have third teamer as Vezina winner. Mowers was strong contender to Vezina whole season so only two votes for first team seems quite little if the theory would be correct.

Then there is 1945-1946 when the voting was done after playoffs. So I´m bit doubtful that the main factor in voting would be regular season GAA.

And the late 40´s coaches selections. Is there any proof that goalies GAA affected on coaches opinions? I think it would be rather odd if the coaches would have done their voting based on simply to GAA. Atleast they had to understand the team effect on GAA. What little I have seen their opinions about goalies from that time period seems to be pretty well in line on how they voted.

I´m not saying that the GAA did not have any effect on voters (writers). There are proof that it did for some. For example what I learned recently was that Milt Dunnel seemed to be GAA believer. But I have for example seen Dink Carrolls and Doug Vaughans articles speaking about team effect on Vezina trophy (IIRC Elmer Ferguson commented on that too).

I think it is too strongly said that GAA was deciding factor on All-Star goalie on that time period.

 

[Sanf]

1938 is other questionable one. If the voting started in mid february like in 1939 Dave Kerr would have been leading the Vezina race. Apparently Thompson took lead in late February. First votes were published in March 9., but it is difficult to say when the votes were cast. It was pretty tight race too. In March 16. Thompson was leading with one goal less against (Kerr had three games left and Thompson only one though.).

And what about the second team selections. Those weren´t always the second in GAA races. Why would the voters had changed their valuation style when picking second goalie?

But I think I may be late in this party . I might be repeating doubts that has already issued and maybe even explained. So I leave it to this.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Regardless of the details, it's a fact that 100% of the 1st Team All Star selections for goalies between the mid 1930s and early 1960s went to the non-tandem starter with the best GAA, while the 2nd Team All Star nod wasn't so entwined with GAA.

Question - did all writers vote early or did some wait until the end of the season? If a block of writers is voting based on GAA, that would be enough if the "eye test" writers were split between a few guys.

 

[Sanf]

Regardless of the details, it's a fact that 100% of the 1st Team All Star selections for goalies between the mid 1930s and early 1960s went to the non-tandem starter with the best GAA, while the 2nd Team All Star nod wasn't so entwined with GAA.

Question - did all writers vote early or did some wait until the end of the season? If a block of writers is voting based on GAA, that would be enough if the "eye test" writers were split between a few guys.

I have understood that everyone voted at same time. Votes were published few at the time. Like "Here are the third and fourth of a Canadian Press series of National Hockey League all-star selections" "consensus will be prepared later". I would guess there would have been no point to publish them all that early. But BM67 is probably better to answer this question.

Also Important to note that I don´t know at what point the voting was done after 46. I´m talking now about 30´s and 40´s pre-coach selections. Edit. Brainfart the two part voting ofcourse . But still the 50´s and 60´s are not my strong area at all.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It's rare that we get any insight into the Conn Smythe voting, but the below article on NHL.com confirms Duncan Keith was a unanimous choice for 2015

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=771033&navid=nhl:topheads

 

[Epsilon]

It's rare that we get any insight into the Conn Smythe voting, but the below article on NHL.com confirms Duncan Keith was a unanimous choice for 2015

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=771033&navid=nhl:topheads

I've always found the lack of transparency surrounding the Conn Smythe trophy to be utterly absurd. It actually cheapens the award somewhat for me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I noted that last night as Bettman said as much before presenting the trophy...thought it was interesting.