OT: Remembering Rick Rypien

[F A N]

Are you kidding?

Not really. Pleasure might not be the best word to use but how many of the famed enforcers threw their first punch at someone's else's face in a hockey game? I'm not saying that these enforcers grew up wanting to fight so they chose to play hockey. I'm not saying these enforcers enjoyed going out there just to look for an engage in a fight. I doubt that's fun. Boogaard, for example, idolized Wendal Clark. I'm sure he wanted to be a powerforward who can drop the gloves.

I'm talking about the mentality of enforcers. These guys didn't just decide that's what they needed to do to earn a living so they were forced to fight. They took pride in what they can do with their fists. The culture around hockey fights is changing but these enforcers we're talking grew up in a different era. You won't hear many ex-enforcers saying that if they had to do it all over again they won't. I mean there are people whose job is to take a bullet for someone if need be.

I like Kassian's approach "It’s one of my attributes that’s made me a unique player all the way from junior hockey to now … it’s given my family a great life and it’s something I enjoy doing."

 

[RobertKron]

Not really. Pleasure might not be the best word to use but how many of the famed enforcers threw their first punch at someone's else's face in a hockey game? I'm not saying that these enforcers grew up wanting to fight so they chose to play hockey. I'm not saying these enforcers enjoyed going out there just to look for an engage in a fight. I doubt that's fun. Boogaard, for example, idolized Wendal Clark. I'm sure he wanted to be a powerforward who can drop the gloves.

I'm talking about the mentality of enforcers. These guys didn't just decide that's what they needed to do to earn a living so they were forced to fight. They took pride in what they can do with their fists. The culture around hockey fights is changing but these enforcers we're talking grew up in a different era. You won't hear many ex-enforcers saying that if they had to do it all over again they won't. I mean there are people whose job is to take a bullet for someone if need be.

I like Kassian's approach "It’s one of my attributes that’s made me a unique player all the way from junior hockey to now … it’s given my family a great life and it’s something I enjoy doing."

Many if not most players who end up playing some type of fighter role came into the role out of necessity be it in junior or as a pro. It could be having to step up because they were big and thus gained a target, or from standing up for teammates and then having that become part of their game. A number of them took this on precisely because they realized that it's how they were going to be able to make a living and stay in the game.

Here's Georges Laraque talking about it:


Here's Donald Brashear:

Like thousands of other Canadian kids, Brashear was trying to earn a spot on an NHL roster. Becoming a fighter was one way to do it, and his coaches liked what they saw.

The next season, he jumped to the American Hockey League, where he skated for a farm team of the Montreal Canadiens, the NHL's most storied franchise. He moved to Fredericton, New Brunswick, where he would play for two and a half years. Brashear tried to impress with his offense, one season scoring 38 goals and totaling 66 points in 62 games. "But you get a role and you do one thing well and you keep doing that to survive," he said.

. . .

"To tell you the truth, I never liked fighting," he said in a soft voice that still bears a French-Canadian accent. "I always wanted to be the type of player that plays hard, hits, body checks and scores some goals. But that's not what they wanted me to be."

For Capitals' Brashear, fighting's a way of life

WashPost: Loner has cut himself off from rest of world because of what happened to him as a child.

www.nbcnews.com

He described his anxiety as an enforcer in the NHL, knowing that he was expected to fight the toughest players in the league if he wanted to keep his job. As a talented prospect with the Montreal Canadiens, he wanted to be known for his skill, but it was overshadowed when hockey found a better use for him.

Brashear hated to fight. It made him nervous. He despised what it made people think of him and what it made him think of himself. But what else was he to do?

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5137359/2023/12/20/donald-brashear-nhl-fighting/#

Andrew Peters:

“I remember the first time my junior coach told me I had to fight in order to make it,” Peters told Hockey Unfiltered. “I was like, ‘How hard can it be?’ And now you’re here all these years later and think to yourself, ‘What was I doing?’ It’s embarrassing. I don’t even like telling people that I played in the NHL because I didn’t play in the NHL. I think I played maybe 10 games in the NHL where I was a real player.”

Former enforcer rethinks his views on fighting

'I don't even like telling people I played in the NHL,' says former tough guy Andrew Peters. 'There's no real pride in what I did'

kencampbell.substack.com

John Kordic in 1986:

The Montreal Canadiens defenseman, who has yet to lose a hockey fight, is basically a pacifist.

“It’s nothing I love doing,” the 6-foot, 190-pound Kordic said after pummeling physical New York Ranger Mike McPhee during the Stanley Cup semifinal. “I like to hit and take the body but I don’t like fighting.

“I know what people are thinking right now; that I’m just a goon. I heard (Hockey Night in Canada commentator) Dick Irvin say, ‘Well, that’s why he’s out there.’ That doesn’t make me feel good.

“I’m sure my parents heard that on TV and they’ll be upset, too. I’m not worried so much about myself, more about my parents. I just wish they’d understand that this is how I’m getting my chance.

. . .

“If I have to keep doing this, I’ll probably quit, go back to school,” Kordic said. “I wouldn’t mind being a police officer or a fireman, it’s something different every day.”

Canadiens' Enforcer Doesn't Like Fights

Rookie John Kordic's biggest fear about going head-to-head with the goons of the NHL is displeasing his parents.

www.latimes.com

Chris Nilan from the same article about Kordic:

“I understand it from the viewpoint that that’s how I came into the league,” Nilan said, “how I got my chance to play hockey. I know it’s what got me here and you shouldn’t forget what brought your game out. I fight but I don’t like it. Some guys in this league like it, I don’t. I know anybody looking at my penalty minutes (274 season, 1699 career) would have a hard time believing that, but I don’t like to fight. I do it because it’s part of my job.

“I like John. I don’t think it’s an enviable position for anybody. When you have to do it, sometimes it’s lonely. He definitely has the tools to develop into a much better hockey player. He’s big and strong, he can shoot the puck, he can skate OK, he’s a natural defenseman,” the right winger added. “If he works hard on all those things, he can improve. But the way I look at it, he can get that chance by the physical part of his game; he has to be there. It’s not fun, but if a guy like John wants to make it . . . “

John Scott:

But Scott doesn't fit the stereotype of a fighter. In fact, he didn't even like fighting.

"Gosh, no," he says. "I don’t think anybody would enjoy getting punched in the face."

So how did he become a brawler?

"My coaches in college," Scott explains, "they sat me down, said, 'Hey, listen, you’re good, and you have one thing no one has, and that’s your size. Like, you can’t teach size.' "

Scott was signed to an NHL team soon after his first minor league fight.

But the start of his career as an enforcer also marked the beginning of a long struggle for Scott.

"I didn’t like it, obviously. I wanted to be a player first," he says. "But, again, you just do what you have to do to survive. And if that’s what I had to do, I did it."

John Scott: The 'Gentle Giant' Who Became The NHL's Last True Enforcer

When it comes to pro athletes, the stereotype does not always reflect reality. And there’s perhaps no greater example than former professional hockey player John Scott.

www.wbur.org

Tony Twist:

At 17, I quit hockey. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed it. But fighting’s all I was doing. If we played 45, 50 games, I fought pretty much every game. You could only fight once per game, so the first and second periods you’re holding back because in the third you were going to fight. And I was always fighting guys four years older than me.

I had set a goal to go to college, but that’s when my rights in the WHL were traded from Kamloops to Saskatoon. So I went to Saskatoon’s camp, but even there, I was only put in the game to fight. I remember having a discussion with my pops, and I said, “I’m a better player than this.” But it was either integrate or migrate. I got it. This is who I am.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4322927/2023/03/31/tony-twist-nhl-fighting/

There are countless other examples of players with the "well if you want to make it, this is how you're going to do it" story that is woven through all of these examples - almost certainly way more than there were guys growing up hoping to make the NHL as an enforcer, since the majority of these guys were at one time skill guys in their minor hockey programs.

Here's an entire article about it from 2014 titled "For George Parros & other tough guys, fighting was a business decision"

https://thehockeynews.com/news/for-george-parros-other-tough-guys-fighting-was-a-business-decision

 

[F A N]

Many if not most players who end up playing some type of fighter role came into the role out of necessity be it in junior or as a pro. It could be having to step up because they were big and thus gained a target, or from standing up for teammates and then having that become part of their game. A number of them took this on precisely because they realized that it's how they were going to be able to make a living and stay in the game.

Here's Georges Laraque talking about it:


Here's Donald Brashear:

For Capitals' Brashear, fighting's a way of life

WashPost: Loner has cut himself off from rest of world because of what happened to him as a child.

www.nbcnews.com

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5137359/2023/12/20/donald-brashear-nhl-fighting/#

Andrew Peters:

Former enforcer rethinks his views on fighting

'I don't even like telling people I played in the NHL,' says former tough guy Andrew Peters. 'There's no real pride in what I did'

kencampbell.substack.com

John Kordic in 1986:

Canadiens' Enforcer Doesn't Like Fights

Rookie John Kordic's biggest fear about going head-to-head with the goons of the NHL is displeasing his parents.

www.latimes.com

Chris Nilan from the same article about Kordic:


John Scott:

John Scott: The 'Gentle Giant' Who Became The NHL's Last True Enforcer

When it comes to pro athletes, the stereotype does not always reflect reality. And there’s perhaps no greater example than former professional hockey player John Scott.

www.wbur.org

Tony Twist:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/4322927/2023/03/31/tony-twist-nhl-fighting/

There are countless other examples of players with the "well if you want to make it, this is how you're going to do it" story that is woven through all of these examples - almost certainly way more than there were guys growing up hoping to make the NHL as an enforcer, since the majority of these guys were at one time skill guys in their minor hockey programs.

Here's an entire article about it from 2014 titled "For George Parros & other tough guys, fighting was a business decision"

https://thehockeynews.com/news/for-george-parros-other-tough-guys-fighting-was-a-business-decision

Thanks this is a good post. Again, I have no doubt that enforcers don't enjoy simply going out there for a few minutes to look for/engage in fights. I do think it's something enforcers struggle with. On the one hand they don't want to be seen as just an enforcer (or worse a goon) who can't play hockey. On the other hand, if they dismiss fighting in hockey it takes away from their own legacy. Plenty of players try and change their games in an effort to increase their chances of playing in the NHL. There are players who naturally don't enjoy the hitting or blocking shots but developed that aspect of their game.

Here's Laraque further back. He defends fighting here and argues

if there was more fighting there would be less injuries and less cheap shots.

Brashear has had a tough life. But he can say he doesn't enjoy fighting but he has also spoken out about the instigator penalty during his career. He spent time as an amateur boxer during the NHL lockout and he also did MMA after his NHL career was over.

Kordic similarly had a tough life. I don't know much about him but it sounds like he struggled playing a role that his parents disapproved of.

Found a quote from John Scott's book

Fighting has always been in the game. Everyone is used to it. Almost everyone who has played the game understands that it serves a purpose. Even people who would like to see it eliminated and feel that it is better to ban it than keep it, acknowledge that the reasons to keep it do exist. If you know hockey, you can see the difference between those times when there is a tough guy in the game and when there isn’t. … I know when I’m not playing, the players on the other team who like to agitate are worse. When I’m in the game, they behave.
…
When the other team has a fighter and yours doesn’t, it’s like knowing the school bully is going to confront you in the yard during recess and try to take your lunch money. But it’s more than that. Imagine that the same bully wants to take the same lunch money from your classmates or your teammates. Somebody has to stand up and make sure that doesn’t happen. That’s the enforcer.
...
Fighting won’t ever lose its purpose in the game. Whether it will actually stay in, I’m not sure.

The same article you got the Tony Twist article from he also said:

From Grade 3 all the way up, there was always a scuffle.

Perceptions do change. I haven't followed up on whether Scott Stevens, for example, has talked about his hits. But I don't think he was at all bothered at the time those hits happened.

 

[RobertKron]

Thanks this is a good post. Again, I have no doubt that enforcers don't enjoy simply going out there for a few minutes to look for/engage in fights. I do think it's something enforcers struggle with. On the one hand they don't want to be seen as just an enforcer (or worse a goon) who can't play hockey. On the other hand, if they dismiss fighting in hockey it takes away from their own legacy. Plenty of players try and change their games in an effort to increase their chances of playing in the NHL. There are players who naturally don't enjoy the hitting or blocking shots but developed that aspect of their game.

Here's Laraque further back. He defends fighting here and argues


Brashear has had a tough life. But he can say he doesn't enjoy fighting but he has also spoken out about the instigator penalty during his career. He spent time as an amateur boxer during the NHL lockout and he also did MMA after his NHL career was over.

Kordic similarly had a tough life. I don't know much about him but it sounds like he struggled playing a role that his parents disapproved of.

Found a quote from John Scott's book



The same article you got the Tony Twist article from he also said:



Perceptions do change. I haven't followed up on whether Scott Stevens, for example, has talked about his hits. But I don't think he was at all bothered at the time those hits happened.

I mean, yes, that these guys can understand the role of fighting in hockey and take pride in their work doesn't mean that it wasn't the case that they at some point arrived at a place where they were effectively told that if they wanted to continue in the game of hockey, they were going to have to be fighters in order to keep their careers, and that at that point they "decide[ed] that's what they needed to do to earn a living."

 

[F A N]

I mean, yes, that these guys can understand the role of fighting in hockey and take pride in their work doesn't mean that it wasn't the case that they at some point arrived at a place where they were effectively told that if they wanted to continue in the game of hockey, they were going to have to be fighters in order to keep their careers, and that at that point they "decide[ed] that's what they needed to do to earn a living."

My point is that it's more complicated than that. I mean at what age does a kid start doing things to improve their chances of making it to the NHL? It could be at a very young age. At what point does "earn a living" come into play? At what point do you take a kid seriously when he says he wants to be an astronaut or doctor etc.? And a coach/somebody telling a 15 year old he needs to fight is different from a parent telling a 15 year old he needs to study hard in order to have a godo future? Should it be different for hockey players?

Both Brashear and Laraque were abused as kids and dealt with a lot of racism and bullying. Of course they weren't always fighters. They had to have been good hockey players to even get to the lower levels they got to. But both these guys knew from a young age they can beat up someone easily. Like read Laraque's story. he tells a story of how had he chose to fight his father he could have killed him at age 15.

A lot of these enforcers get challenged because they're big and they end up fighting. I am skeptical that everyone is like John Snow who doesn't like what he's good at. Like I said, there's the culture around it. Sidney Crosby gets into a fight? His coach says it's an obvious testament to his leadership. Not enjoying something doesn't mean it's not rewarding. Probert (RIP) didn't take issue with fighting and hazing.

Mike Tyson talked about how boxing is degrading but he did it because he had nothing and he did it for his kids. He's now 58 and about to fight again.

 

[RobertKron]

My point is that it's more complicated than that. I mean at what age does a kid start doing things to improve their chances of making it to the NHL? It could be at a very young age. At what point does "earn a living" come into play? At what point do you take a kid seriously when he says he wants to be an astronaut or doctor etc.? And a coach/somebody telling a 15 year old he needs to fight is different from a parent telling a 15 year old he needs to study hard in order to have a godo future? Should it be different for hockey players?

Both Brashear and Laraque were abused as kids and dealt with a lot of racism and bullying. Of course they weren't always fighters. They had to have been good hockey players to even get to the lower levels they got to. But both these guys knew from a young age they can beat up someone easily. Like read Laraque's story. he tells a story of how had he chose to fight his father he could have killed him at age 15.

A lot of these enforcers get challenged because they're big and they end up fighting. I am skeptical that everyone is like John Snow who doesn't like what he's good at. Like I said, there's the culture around it. Sidney Crosby gets into a fight? His coach says it's an obvious testament to his leadership. Not enjoying something doesn't mean it's not rewarding. Probert (RIP) didn't take issue with fighting and hazing.

Mike Tyson talked about how boxing is degrading but he did it because he had nothing and he did it for his kids. He's now 58 and about to fight again.

You don't think there's a difference between a parent telling their kid that they need to study hard and a coach telling a kid that they need to go get in a bareknuckle fist fight every night to stay on a team? What?

Brashear and Laraque suffering abuse and/or racism means that they enjoyed fighting?

I genuinely don't really know what you're getting at here. What I've been responding to was your assertion that that enforcers are fighting out of enjoyment rather than doing so to earn a living, but I don't really know what to make of this post at all.

 

[F A N]

You don't think there's a difference between a parent telling their kid that they need to study hard and a coach telling a kid that they need to go get in a bareknuckle fist fight every night to stay on a team? What?

Brashear and Laraque suffering abuse and/or racism means that they enjoyed fighting?

I genuinely don't really know what you're getting at here. What I've been responding to was your assertion that that enforcers are fighting out of enjoyment rather than doing so to earn a living, but I don't really know what to make of this post at all.

Again, for clarification, pleasure might not the best word to use. I meant to write that these enforcers fought before they had to do it as a part of the job description. That's what I meant and I admittedly didn't express that well enough. The point remains. Few of the famed enforcers started fighting as part of the job. And most people do things they don't want to do for a living. Few enjoy every aspect of their jobs. Like I said, not enjoying something doesn't mean it's not rewarding. I don't think most surgeons enjoy operating on someone as if it's a game. I don't think firemen enjoy their work most of the time (it's not comfortable). But most of them do it not because it's just a job. There's something rewarding there. I think it's the same with enforcers. You don't think NHL enforcers enjoy intimidating the other team and beating someone in a fight? They get a heroes welcome. Of course it sucks when they are on the losing end of the fight.

I mean aside from Twist which of the enforcers we've discussed was told as kids/teenagers that they needed to fight to stay on the team vs playing in the NHL? Those are different things.

And speaking of Twist. He fought from elementary school on up. Here he talks about enjoying it
He enjoyed it before he played in the WHL and enjoyed it when he played in the WHL. He says "Find your interest find your riches."

I would assume there's a difference between a guy like Twist and a guy like Scott. Twist's upbringing caused him to fight his way through life and by the time he was a teenager he was just better than everyone else at fighting. Scott was a tall lanky guy who was a much better player. I believe that he didn't enjoy fighting as a kid but the fact is he did. Not because he had to to stay on the team. But he did because he didn't want to back down when challenged.

Andrew Peters is a bit different and says he would rather not make it. He doesn't consider himself an NHL hockey player. He wanted to be Mario Lemieux. But you know there are a whole lot of hockey players who feel that they can be / are better than what their stats and minutes show. Whether you're Matt Cooke begging to be put on the PP or Brashear thinking he can be a goal scorer in the NHL (just like in the AHL), that's how players think.

I'm sure there are posters here who regularly got into trouble as a kid. People mature and the way they think changes. If you're someone who beat up someone smaller and weaker than you as a kid you probably don't enjoy that as much now if you had the same opportunity and can get away with it.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

The Rypien story I always like to tell is about the time he almost killed rookie Erik Johnson. Canucks were on the road in St Louis and Rypien and Johnson were battling in the corner and Johnson started to get hot and was starting to challenge Rypien. Rypien was "oh yeah, you want to fight?" Before they could drop the gloves GJ Combeen comes flying in and tackles Rypien to the ice. All three players go to the box and the Canucks get a PP out of it. The camera cuts to Johnson and Crombeen in the box and Johnson looks hot and it talking to Crombeen. Crombeen doesn't even look at Johnson, he just stares straight ahead shaking his head like he's thinking, "you stupid kid, you have no idea how badly you almost f***ed up."

 

[Nick Lang]

Not a good hockey player but gutsy as hell.

 

[rypper]

Not a good hockey player but gutsy as hell.

Rypien was a fine hockey player and an excellent fighter. In this context of not a good player, I think of guys like Hordichuk, etc. Rypien had real skill and could be an every day player.

 

[F A N]

Rypien was a fine hockey player and an excellent fighter. In this context of not a good player, I think of guys like Hordichuk, etc. Rypien had real skill and could be an every day player.

Speaking of Rypien and Hordichuk