- Aug 16, 2015
- 543
- 865
Value of: Red Wings 1st in 2024
- Thread starter OgeeOgelthorpe
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
WingsToPick4th
Registered User
- Jan 5, 2020
- 1,014
- 1,212
Shesty
Othmann
Trouba
2025 1st
Jones
for
Seider
DET 2026 2nd
Rassmussen
Gettinger
one real high end piece each way
quality futures + useful adds to offset Seider younger w/mo team control
DET adds elite G, higher W prospect ready now in Oth
Trouba for Seider is downgrade but Trouba mitigates a bit
and Wings add useful extra D Jones
so depth
+ upgrade on better pick sooner
Red Wings keep 15OA
Rs add foundation RD
gamble Quick + Dominque hold fort while heir Garand advances
somethin like dat
Othmann
Trouba
2025 1st
Jones
for
Seider
DET 2026 2nd
Rassmussen
Gettinger
one real high end piece each way
quality futures + useful adds to offset Seider younger w/mo team control
DET adds elite G, higher W prospect ready now in Oth
Trouba for Seider is downgrade but Trouba mitigates a bit
and Wings add useful extra D Jones
so depth
+ upgrade on better pick sooner
Red Wings keep 15OA
Rs add foundation RD
gamble Quick + Dominque hold fort while heir Garand advances
somethin like dat
Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
- 9,443
- 2,796
We are not trading Rasmussen and Seider. You need to let go of that fantasy of yours...
Ledge And Dairy
Registered User
Fowler would actually probably be a good fit for them, assuming Anaheim can take back one of their defensemen ofc. A top 4 of Seider, Fowler, Edvinsson, and Walman for next season would be pretty solid
Ledge And Dairy
Registered User
This is disingenuous, the draft is considered "shallow" because there is a drop-off around pick ~25. #15 this year is going to be just as good as any other years #15 on average. Were talking guys like Liam Greentree, Trevor Connelly, and Michael Brandsegg-Nygard. They are still quality prospects.
I don't expect Boston would move Swayman for anything less than a Kings ransom but don't undermine a mid round 1st because the later picks are weaker
Bern still trying to get elite young players while sending cap dumps like Trouba in a deal... Never changes.
Goalies aren't worth that much, R's would not get the retyrn they think for an 8.5M goalie
your no vote is acknowledged.
Prior to now, it was proper to presume Wings would be building
This thread by Red Wings fan OP, suggests something that also builds while adding immediate help would be considered, and future help on top of that possibly even welcomed.
Others, not me, introduced DET need to acquire quality netminder NOW
==========
given above reality,
if rest of your base concurs, we can agree Rs give up the dream of Seider while you surrender any hope of getting Shesty.
Or we can be open minded about some variation of a deal.
Whether or not our fave teams get more for those pieces elsewhere is a separate and fair ?, but we should not dismiss possibilities out of hand.
Remember, more of the same moves begets more of the same.
Gotta break some eggs if you are making an omelet.
If you want signif improvement, esp overnight, then signif assets have to be on the table.
peace out
Husso might end up being an LTIR candidate with how poorly his recovery has gone. Tried coming back a couple months ago, didn't make it through a period without reinjuring himself. Tried to come back for an AHL conditioning stint, reinjured himself in practice.
Wrong, multiple counts
In sequential order you stated
1.. would not say Seider is currently "elite"; elite potential, yes; around the corner more than down the road?; possibly. But he is not there TODAY.
2.."cap dumps like Trouba"
Cap dump implies level of quality talent/production << cap hit, regardless of salary #. [e.g., Panarin, Nylander, Larkin, McD, etc.]
esp given lack of RDs league wide creating higher demand
Trouba at 8 = too much, but only be 1.5-ish
So JT at 6.5 commands value.
Rs may deal trouba b'c they need to be cap flexible, but at 6.5 he is not a dump, and most clubs, despite him not being a unicorn w/his skating, for his clearing the crease and overall tuf presence, would take him. When he goes Rs will have no shortage of takers, and be limited only by:
a) not dealing him w/in division
b) accommodating his preference as to relocation
3. "Goalies aren't worth that much, R's would not get the retyrn they think for an 8.5M goalie" -- is what peeps who are trying to underpay for elite Vez quality say.
Wrong x at least 2.
a). Shesty is currently and into next season a ridiculous 5.x BARGAIN, not 8.5 now
he will command 8.75 x 4 or so going forward, but for Vez quality ACTUALLY ELITE netminder, this is what you pay.
You don't want to go there, then you takes yer chances.
But then don't be-atch and moan b'c WOEful netminding.
b). "Goalies aren't worth that much" -- the market sez you are wrong. You are entitled to yr opinion, not your own expression of actual facts when same are contrary to reality.
Best netminders command a premium, and they for most part earn it.
Rs doing well so far, but going forward may have to deal Shesty and break in Garand to stay ahead of the curve and correct for failure to not listen to bern and instead did win now rental miscues.
-------
you on the other hand, are same ol, same ol, critic
open yr eyes and yr brain
Anaheim laughs and hangs up. St. Louis might say yes...
Either way we're a top 10 scoring team in the league this year and our RHD options after Seider were Petry, Holl, and Ghost. So not sure why we're moving 15+ for another winger.
Because the wings Defense is trash and Sanheim is in his prime on a good contract (all things considered - general UFA market etc). If Seider is PP1 of the future (should be if you're paying him 8.75-9MM) then what does that do to ASP's value on the team. At best he's Devon Toews maybe?
Farabee is young and on a decent contract that could help become part of the core around Raymond/Seider. They have Kasper and Danielson as the young centers. Could probably use a good young talented 2nd line wing.
Farabee is young and on a decent contract that could help become part of the core around Raymond/Seider. They have Kasper and Danielson as the young centers. Could probably use a good young talented 2nd line wing.
My guess would be if ASP becomes what Detroit hopes he becomes, he's PP1 and Seider is left to the more defensive responsibilities. Essentially what they did with Ghost/Seider, except God-willing ASP would have developed some defensive ability that Ghost entirely lacks.
Whether Sanheim can play the right or not is irrelevant. He's a LHD on a team that's pretty deep on LHD.
That's (Seider) an expensive #1 D-man who doesn't rack points on PP1. I guess a comp for that kind of usage and cap hit would be Nurse and Owen Power? Maybe Petro? I'm not sure anyone thinks those are good contracts right now. I personally was frustrated that Seider didn't get more PP time over ghost.
Sanheim played and is experienced on his right side FWIW. But I hear you.
1. Seider is playing 24 minutes a night with a dzone start rate of like 65% against the other teams best players night in and night out. He's a legit #1 defenseman at this point and the points will start coming when he doesn't start in his own zone 2/3rds of his shifts.
2. I don't think you understand the term cap dump. In a cap league, a player not playing to their contract is not an asset, especially when that contract has term. If the contract was expiring and he was a UFA at the end of the year, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but nobody wants to lock up 3 years at 6.5 for a player clearly on the decline. You're not getting assets for him.
3. List of trades involving goalies and 1st round picks since the 2013 lockout. Cory Schneider was a high end, young prospect when he was traded we have to keep in mind and the NJD were going to lose the pick if they didn't move it for the Kovalchuk cap circumvention.. You're not getting a top 15 pick + for a goalie that's going to demand a massive raise when his contract expires.
| 21-22 | Darcy Kuemper | Connor Timmins, 1st-2022, 3rd-2024 |
| 16-17 | Frederik Andersen | 1st-2016 (#30 OVR), 2nd-2017 |
| 15-16 | Martin Jones | 1st-2016 (#29 OVR), Sean Kuraly |
| 15-16 | Robin Lehner * | 1st-205 (#21 OVR) |
| 13-14 | Cory Schneider | 1st-2013 (#9 OVR) |
15+Berggren+Ed or ASP is probably the baseline..
grewalwings
Registered User
I've had a sneaking suspicion all year that Ghost was brought on to nerf Seider's PP time/production for his contract. Nonetheless, if you can eat 23-25 minutes a night of top line matchups, I'd pay near $9M for what Seider brings to the table. (Especially now, right before the cap rockets upward) Problem is, they stretched that to the extreme and buried him because the other RHD suck and he doesn't really have a legitimate top pairing partner.
As far as Sanheim, I get that he's played on the right, I just don't see the need to trade 15+ for him to play his off hand. I think they'd be better off trading that same package for an actual RHD.
Also wouldn't be surprised if they just throw Chiarot over there. I'm not saying he's better than Sanheim, I just don't know that the difference is worth giving up that package for.
In order you presented...
1 Seider. No one said anything negative about him trying to lower the return, which the one I am offering is ample.
2. What is a cap dump, is Trouba a cap dump, esp if retained...
"... a player not playing to their contract is not an asset, especially when that contract has term."
Trouba is 8mil per
he is overpaid, but only by max 1.5 per, and I indicated Rs would retain that much.
So if the level of his production is commensurate w/6.5 per then he IS "playing to [...] {his} contract".
Also, "... nobody wants to lock up 3 years at 6.5 for a player clearly on the decline. You're not getting assets for him."
It is only 2 years after this season, not 3.
He is 30 per cf, so this does not mean a gamble on a guy who is gonna completely breakdown w/age a major factor. 32 end of his deal is not mid or late 30s. That is objective, factual math and it does not lie.
Now, if you want to make an argument that he is already in substantial decline, we can agree to disagree.
He still provides critical elements teams want/need. Specifically, he is very effective at clearing the crease.
He is not a unicorn like McAvoy, but those are few and far between.
He was brought in to provide a tough presence with an effective physical game and he still does that. So your argument does not really hold water, esp since this is a short term contract/commitment.
As to "You're not getting assets for him." you are completely ignoring supply and demand. RDs in short supply, more so w/height + beast factor.
W/retention, Rs will recover picks/futures.
It is not hypocritical for Rs to want to move Shesty/JT for salary mgt.
Have another yr before they can recover all or most of bread's 11.6m+.
Need $ for kakko, Schneider, possibly KAM etc. Not a crazy amount, and there are multiple scenarios. But there is no reason for Rs not to sell high here.
You don't want to pay my price, fine.
But don't misrepresent it as what it is not.
Like I said, you want a vez quality guy, he ain't gonna be cheap.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
What is your interest in Trouba? Not going to ask for a lot. I’d expect Detroit to pick up most, if not all, of his contract as opposed to wanting a return back.
He’s now on the Rangers third pair. Schneider has overtaken him and Trouba costs too much for a third pair RHD on a right side with Fox.
He’s now on the Rangers third pair. Schneider has overtaken him and Trouba costs too much for a third pair RHD on a right side with Fox.
Nope, don't need downgrades or depth anymore. If you want Zegras, we want a similar age RHD with the potential to be a #2/3 guy. Anaheim is basically set at every position going forward outside if top pair RHD to play with Mintyukov (assuming everyone hits realistic expectations).
Ducks have a lot of young, NHL ready LHD. Even moving Fowler for a similar RHD (#2/3 D in their 30's that can PK and doesn't have a lot of term left). Mintyukov/Zellweger/LaCombe/Vaakanainen all are LHD (Zell and LaCombe play on their off side a lot), Gudas and Lindstrom are our RHD. Verbeek has said he wants guys on their natural side.
Ledge And Dairy
Registered User
I think if you are trading Fowler and taking back 1 year of like Maatta you aren't going to be that picky about 1 player on their off hand.
I think if Anaheim's top 6 next year is something like:
Mintyukov - xxx
Zellweger - Gudas
Maatta - LaCombe
They will be fine. Maybe you play LaCombe with Mintyukov then keep one of Vaak or Lindstrom, or give Helleson a chance. Maybe you bring in a minute munching UFA looking for their last big deal like DeMelo or Myers
Not wise to leave the kids with minimal vets on the backend like that. No issue moving Fowler but they need good vets for each kid.
Ledge And Dairy
Registered User
Latest posts
-
Post-Game Talk: Four Nations, Three Losses, Two Forwards, One Defenseman, Zero Goalies- Latest: KeithIsActuallyBad
-
-
