Value of: Recapture penalty

[Curufinwe]

I just don't think nashville should be punished for a contract they didn't write.

By that logic, I didn't write my mortgage contract so I shouldn't have to pay back the money I owe the bank.

 

[Lacaar]

If t ever gets to this I believe Weber would LTIR for some nagging injury and the nhl would look the other way.

Most likely some kind of back or concussion injury.

This is my bet.

He'll get his 1 mills per season of retirement cash.
NHL won't bat an eyelash as Nashville would take it in the ass and that team can't really afford to take it in the ass.

To this day not a single team that I recall is paying much of a price for retirement contracts or even just crap contracts in general.

Most of the times the player is injured. 99% of the players that played more then a few years in the league could probably claim injury/retirement. It's the new circumvention. Teams like it... Player likes it. So everyone looks the other way.

There is some pain involved as you have to include injury space before the season starts I beleive. But most teams can bury enough contracts in the AHL the day before the season starts to make up for it.

Should have a poll on what injury causes Weber to retire in IR early.

 

[russ4king]

They hit the Kings with every dollar of settlement paid to Richards, plus 100% of recapture for Richards. They hit NJ with 100% of recapture for Kovalchuk.

You said it yourself...they settled. Instead of the Kings getting stuck with Ricjards cap hit or buyout they allowed them to terminate and settle. They shouldn't have been able to settle at all. They should have been forced to buy ouy his contract in full. The penalty would have been a lot higher than the measly 1.5m hit for the next 4 years.

And with Kovalchuk the Devils originally had to forfeit a 1st and 3rd round pick as punshment for cap circumvention. When Kovalchuk bolted...Lou Lammy asked the NHL for leniency....and they gave them back a 1st round pick.

Same thing will happen here. Either it gets swept away in the next CBA or the NHL will allow a settlement.

 

[mouser]

You said it yourself...they settled. Instead of the Kings getting stuck with Ricjards cap hit or buyout they allowed them to terminate and settle. They shouldn't have been able to settle at all. They should have been forced to buy ouy his contract in full. The penalty would have been a lot higher than the measly 1.5m hit for the next 4 years.

And with Kovalchuk the Devils originally had to forfeit a 1st and 3rd round pick as punshment for cap circumvention. When Kovalchuk bolted...Lou Lammy asked the NHL for leniency....and they gave them back a 1st round pick.

Same thing will happen here. Either it gets swept away in the next CBA or the NHL will allow a settlement.

The point remains, so far no team has escaped recapture.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Because the Flyers got no cap advantage from those deals.

It's not complicated.

Then why write a rule almost explicitly excusing those contracts when they would not have qualified for recapture anyways?

they actually did get a cap advantage anyways with Richards. They traded Carter before that contract even came on the books so again, no need to make a rule just for that scenario.

Richards-
Total salary paid out = 17.4M
Total cap hit = 17.25M
Cap benefit of 150k

 

[Eric Sachs]

You said it yourself...they settled. Instead of the Kings getting stuck with Ricjards cap hit or buyout they allowed them to terminate and settle. They shouldn't have been able to settle at all. They should have been forced to buy ouy his contract in full. The penalty would have been a lot higher than the measly 1.5m hit for the next 4 years.

And with Kovalchuk the Devils originally had to forfeit a 1st and 3rd round pick as punshment for cap circumvention. When Kovalchuk bolted...Lou Lammy asked the NHL for leniency....and they gave them back a 1st round pick.

Same thing will happen here. Either it gets swept away in the next CBA or the NHL will allow a settlement.

LA:
Settled on buyout
Still had 100% of cap recapture

NJ:
'Settled' on penalty
Still had 100% of cap recapture

Do you see the pattern? Other things may be up for settlement but to this date, no team has escaped cap recapture at all.

 

[triggrman]

I'm betting if it came down to it, the NHL would treat Weber's contract as a contract signed and traded before 2013. Even though Nashville did officially sign the original contract, they were forced to by Philly's offer sheet. It would be tough to punish Nashville for matching a contract drafted by another team. If the recapture was in place at the time, does Nashville match Philly's offer?

 

[Street Hawk]

This is my bet.

He'll get his 1 mills per season of retirement cash.
NHL won't bat an eyelash as Nashville would take it in the ass and that team can't really afford to take it in the ass.

To this day not a single team that I recall is paying much of a price for retirement contracts or even just crap contracts in general.

Most of the times the player is injured. 99% of the players that played more then a few years in the league could probably claim injury/retirement. It's the new circumvention. Teams like it... Player likes it. So everyone looks the other way.

There is some pain involved as you have to include injury space before the season starts I beleive. But most teams can bury enough contracts in the AHL the day before the season starts to make up for it.

Should have a poll on what injury causes Weber to retire in IR early.

Thee were a bunch of these deals that got bought out like B. Richards, the Hoff, Vinny, Bryz, etc.

Kovy left early.

Pronger and Savard are on LTIR with concussions.

Plus, I don't think there is a player who is in the low back diving part if their contract yet.

Hossa would be the first to drop down to $1 millon next season and will do so for a total of 4 years. That is the contract we should all Keep an eye. I would be very suspicious if hossa ended up on LTIR if he manages to play 75 plus regular season games plus all playoff game. See how close the NHL is on these deals.

Chicago definitely benefited by paying hossa $7 million per year, but only taking a $5.3 million cap hit all these years.

NHL didn't let the wings off from the datsyuk contract.

So, let's just chill on Weber until we see what Chicago does with hossa.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Ok so theres always talk about the Weber Subban trade but lets fast forward time a bit and have some fun. let's say the 2022-2023 season just finished (and another lottery win for Toronto lol). A healthy 38 year old Shea Weber is conteplating retirement and who can blame him 1 mill per year at that point in his contract.. And lets say you are the Nashville GM and are very well aware of the situation and relize next year you will pay 8 mill in cap for year 1, 12 mill for year 2 and a team crippling 24.5 million for year 3. what do you offer montreal to get that contract and save any channce of negating the penalty... If im montreals GM i ask for a return of 2 firsts and a much older and mature P.K Subban. what do you ask for and what are you willing to give up givving the circumstances. By the looks of it Montreal will soon have Nashville by the throat and will be willing to ask pretty much anything.

Yea, I would love to see the NHL attempt to enforce a recapture penalty of 24.5 million..... It's not even possible.

 

[UnicornONtheCOBB]

the Crappy thing for Nashville is they were forced into that deal, or they would of lost him for picks from the Flyers. The Flyers drew up that contract. Those contracts should never been approved by the league, the league messed up.

 

[Riptide]

I think the recapture penalty has been beat to death but what about the buyout? If I am not mistaken the buyout is purely a function of remaining salary owed vs AAV (cap hit).

I asked about that on page 2/3, and Mouser said the CBA was unclear on how that would work, and whether it would skip the recapture or not.

But even if NSH couldn't use that as an option... even just sending Weber to the minors and telling him not to report (if he really wanted to "retire") for a year or two would resolve the majority of their issues. Cap circumvention and all that, sure. But a cap hit in the 6.5m range (or whatever can be buried in the minors 7 years from now) is a lot more manageable then getting hit with a 12/24m recapture penalty. The benefit? Weber still gets paid the 1-2m he's owed and NSH doesn't get the recapture penalty, it's a win/win.

Or NSH trades for him, then immediately flips him somewhere else (to a contender likely) while retaining 50%. Depending on how far gone he is, Weber at 3.9m could still be an option for some teams. Perhaps NSH even gets the other team to retain a little when they acquire Weber. Would still suck, but anything that prevents Weber from "retiring" is in NSH's benefit. So while they can't stop him from retiring, depending on his reasons for wanting to retire, they could potentially try to put him in a situation where he'd like to keep playing (eg not playing for the worst team in the league or in the AHL).

So while we talk about NSH potentially getting hit with this recapture, I think there's enough ways for them to get around it if they really want to and Weber is willing to be a little flexible (which I see no reason why he wouldn't, as it would still allow him to get paid).

Mouser, could NSH buy him out to avoid the recapture?

Unknown. We know that the most recent compliance buyouts didn't have recapture. Not clear whether ordinary course buyouts would.

With an ordinary course buyout I would argue that if the player stayed on the same team the entire time of their contract, then the ordinary course buyout should cancel the recapture. Because the buyout cap hit formula works similarly to the recapture penalty the team would end up with all of the recapture amount in the buyout cap hit, though the cap hits would be spread out differently. So the spirit of the recapture rule is maintained.

Where that doesn't work well though is if the player didn't spend the entire term of the contract on the team. Which would be the case with a hypothetical future buyout of Weber by Nashville. In that situation a buyout could yield a very different total cap hit then the recapture rule depending on when the buyout took place.

 

[Riptide]

thats not true

cap recapture is calculated on total benifit minus total penalty and then averaged over remaining years

webers last 3 years are 1 mill salary any 7.8 hit... a penalty of 6.8

There's no penalty when the cap hit is higher than the salary. The penalty is for when the salary is higher than the cap hit - such as when Weber is making 14m, but has a cap hit of 7.8m.

You're right about the rest of your post.

 

[Riptide]

Yea, I would love to see the NHL attempt to enforce a recapture penalty of 24.5 million..... It's not even possible.

Really? You really do not believe that the NHL would not enforce this if Weber said **** it, and retired as a Montreal Canadian with 1 year left on his contract?

I can see the NHL looking the other way if NSH re-acquired Weber and then paid him 1m to stay at home and just ate the ~6.5m cap hit with him formally in the minors. I could see the NHL looking the other way if NSH paid a decent price for Weber with MTL retaining some of his cap hit, then trading him elsewhere and retaining 50% of it. Lastly I could see the NHL looking the other way if NSH re-acquired him and placed him onto LTIR to finish out his contract.

Because as long as Weber is wiling to go along with whatever (stay home or LTIR), then while everyone will know what is going on, other than some fans, and perhaps some GMs in the Central division, no one is really going to force NSH's hand. There's almost certainly enough "outs" if both parties are willing to make it work to the point that I do not think we'll ever really get to the point where NSH has to deal with Weber's recapture penalty.

But if Weber decides to say **** it and screw NSH over, I think the NHL will absolutely pin the 12/24m recapture penalty on them.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Really? You really do not believe that the NHL would not enforce this if Weber said **** it, and retired as a Montreal Canadian with 1 year left on his contract?

I can see the NHL looking the other way if NSH re-acquired Weber and then paid him 1m to stay at home and just ate the ~6.5m cap hit with him formally in the minors. I could see the NHL looking the other way if NSH paid a decent price for Weber with MTL retaining some of his cap hit, then trading him elsewhere and retaining 50% of it. Lastly I could see the NHL looking the other way if NSH re-acquired him and placed him onto LTIR to finish out his contract.

Because as long as Weber is wiling to go along with whatever (stay home or LTIR), then while everyone will know what is going on, other than some fans, and perhaps some GMs in the Central division, no one is really going to force NSH's hand. There's almost certainly enough "outs" if both parties are willing to make it work to the point that I do not think we'll ever really get to the point where NSH has to deal with Weber's recapture penalty.

But if Weber decides to say **** it and screw NSH over, I think the NHL will absolutely pin the 12/24m recapture penalty on them.

I could see some sort of penalty such as the loss of picks, but a 24.5m recapture penalty? c'Mon that isn't even remotely possible.

Sorry, but no team could just move 24.5m in salary even if they wanted to.

Besides, the recapture stuff is nonsense anyway because it's not unprecedented for a player to play into his late 30's or early 40's. I mean I could see a recapture penalty making sense if a player is signed until he's 45 but not 38-42.

But like I said 24.5 isn't possible.

 

[Street Hawk]

Do people realize how bad the wild would get hit should Suter and parise call it a career early too? Of their $98 million contracts, I believe they get paid $4 million total over the final 3 years. I think the wild would take a $12 million penalty a season for 3 years for these two guys.

 

[glenbuis]

Do people realize how bad the wild would get hit should Suter and parise call it a career early too? Of their $98 million contracts, I believe they get paid $4 million total over the final 3 years. I think the wild would take a $12 million penalty a season for 3 years for these two guys.

that would be very unfortunate for the wild and it will be interesting to see how all these contracts play out. i dont think the league should be bending the rules along the way or they will be losing a lot of credibility. these rules were put in place to prevent cap circumvention and were clearly set out to do that. back pedalling now would only reward those teams for trying to beat the cap or cheat the cap.

 

[tucker3434]

Do people realize how bad the wild would get hit should Suter and parise call it a career early too? Of their $98 million contracts, I believe they get paid $4 million total over the final 3 years. I think the wild would take a $12 million penalty a season for 3 years for these two guys.

Yep, can't wait.

 

[Riptide]

I could see some sort of penalty such as the loss of picks, but a 24.5m recapture penalty? c'Mon that isn't even remotely possible.

Sorry, but no team could just move 24.5m in salary even if they wanted to.

Besides, the recapture stuff is nonsense anyway because it's not unprecedented for a player to play into his late 30's or early 40's. I mean I could see a recapture penalty making sense if a player is signed until he's 45 but not 38-42.

But like I said 24.5 isn't possible.

Which is why NSH almost certainly finds a way to work around it, and why the league won't do anything about it.

 

[Seanaconda]

that would be very unfortunate for the wild and it will be interesting to see how all these contracts play out. i dont think the league should be bending the rules along the way or they will be losing a lot of credibility. these rules were put in place to prevent cap circumvention and were clearly set out to do that. back pedalling now would only reward those teams for trying to beat the cap or cheat the cap.

Teams can already beat it. Not that hard to convince the league a player has a hurt back or head when you can't prove it's real or not. Players will go on ltir if they don't wanna play anymore.

They get paid and the team doesn't get raped by a cap recapture. Win win

 

[Riptide]

Teams can already beat it. Not that hard to convince the league a player has a hurt back or head when you can't prove it's real or not. Players will go on ltir if they don't wanna play anymore.

They get paid and the team doesn't get raped by a cap recapture. Win win

And even if that's not an option, the team can just send the player to the minors and ask that they don't report. Then they deal with the cap hit - whatever can go to the minors and pay the player the 1m or whatever he's owed. An issue for a year or two, but far better then having to deal with a 10m recapture penalty.

 

[tucker3434]

Teams can already beat it. Not that hard to convince the league a player has a hurt back or head when you can't prove it's real or not. Players will go on ltir if they don't wanna play anymore.

They get paid and the team doesn't get raped by a cap recapture. Win win

I'll be surprised if that's allowed. I'm sure loopholes will be exploited to lessen the burden, but I'd be shocked if the league lets teams off completely free by using LTIR.

 

[1dreamof1cup]

I wouldn't bet on that. Specially on that situation where a small market like Nashville had to match that stupid contract given by another team. After what happened with New Jersey, Nashville and the NHL will find a way to not enforce that.

This. Nashville wont be hit with a recapture penalty.

 

[Riptide]

I'll be surprised if that's allowed. I'm sure loopholes will be exploited to lessen the burden, but I'd be shocked if the league lets teams off completely free by using LTIR.

While I don't think the league will allow it (and would specifically punish the team if the player protested it), I don't think the league would say too much if the player even came close to meeting the requirements and was legitimately hurt, and more importantly was okay with going onto LTIR.

However if it looks like the team is pulling a fast one and abusing LTIR (aka the player is seen being really active or something when he's suppose to be at home with a bad back (or whatever)), I could see someone complaining about it, and the league looking into it.

But again, there's other options if the player isn't hurt to the point where LTIR is available.

 

[Street Hawk]

While I don't think the league will allow it (and would specifically punish the team if the player protested it), I don't think the league would say too much if the player even came close to meeting the requirements and was legitimately hurt, and more importantly was okay with going onto LTIR.

However if it looks like the team is pulling a fast one and abusing LTIR (aka the player is seen being really active or something when he's suppose to be at home with a bad back (or whatever)), I could see someone complaining about it, and the league looking into it.

But again, there's other options if the player isn't hurt to the point where LTIR is available.

For me, as a Canucks fan, I believe in a sense of fairness. Canucks will be hit with a penalty from Lu's contract of about $2.8 million per year should he not play the final 3 years of his deal. I believe this is fair.

Why, because his real cap hit, if you calculate it based on what he was paid and how long he actually played for, should be $6.71 million, but his cap hit was $5.33 million. So, what did that $1.4 million in yearly cap savings benefit the canucks?

Same with the blackhawks. If hossa and Keith leave term in their deals, that could be like $4 millon plus a year over the past several years that the hawks benefitted. How many key role players would that have cost them from their cup win in rosters?

Minnesota too. They save over $3 million a season on cap space from parise and Suter, should both call it a career with 3 years left. Real cap hit would be like $9.4 million vs the $7.7 that they are currently eating. What does that buy the wild each season?

So for teams like these, the benefit has been huge.

Teams like NYR, TB, Philly got out of their back diving deals by exercising the compliance buyout. They paid a lot of cash and got no value in play for it. But they gai Ed future cap space.

Other teams could have done the same and opted not too becuase their players were performing better.

Realistically, a guy like weber likely walks away after another 6 or 7 years. He is due $48 million over the next 6. At that point his career earnerings would be $104 million from the current deal, his $7.5 mill from his arbitration deal, $13.5 million from his second contract and his ELC deal if say $2 million. That's well over $125 million. So, he can decide the if it's worth it to continue to play for the remainder.

Hossa would be up to $90 million and LU would be close to $100 million by the time their deals drop in career earnings.

 

[me2]

I could see some sort of penalty such as the loss of picks, but a 24.5m recapture penalty? c'Mon that isn't even remotely possible.

Sorry, but no team could just move 24.5m in salary even if they wanted to.

Apart from the near impossible logistics of it their is also the fan effect. Even though teams like Vancouver, Chicago or Detroit could get through it (Luongo/Hossa/Zetterberg/Franson) it would sting like hell and damage the fan base. Nashville isn't a very big/financially strong franchise like those and the NHL destroying their team could/would drive away enough fans permanently to cause serious consequences. I think that being hit with an blantantly unfair 24.5m penalty could be terminal for that franchise (angry fans quiting and remaining fans apathy towards what would a terrible team for a few years). A 50% chance of it never recovering, that seems a big excessive a "punishment" for $6.85m outstanding cap hit on a contract they didn't even write, on a CBA recapture clause that didn't even exist when they matched.

Bettman isn't going trash Nashville to the point that they are a risk. I'll bet a way is found to help them if it comes to this

a) fix the wording so it is only total outstanding cap hit (6.85m) rather than they very poorly worded Nashville outstanding ($24.5m).

b) find a way to allow Nashville to get Weber back cheap/free and arrange a buyout/pay Weber $1m to stay home.

Besides, the recapture stuff is nonsense anyway because it's not unprecedented for a player to play into his late 30's or early 40's. I mean I could see a recapture penalty making sense if a player is signed until he's 45 but not 38-42.

But like I said 24.5 isn't possible.

I don't have a problem with recapture but it needs to be limited to the outstanding amount only, Nashville should not be on the hook for more than missing cap hit (1 year left their recapture penalty should be $6.85m).