Ray Bourque vs Nik Lidstrom all time

[RabbinsDuck]

Are you honestly trying to blame Bourque for not winning a Cup from 80-92 against 2 of the 4 greatest dynasty teams in the history of the league and then over the powerhouse Pens in 91 and 92....seriously?

I wouldn't, but that is a disturbing amount of 1st round losses. You absolutely have to give Lidstrom a decisive edge in playoff play. Teams play a huge role, but Lidstrom, like Roy vs. Hasek, actually did it and has to get the edge.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Poor Technique

When is he not willing? He steps up his physical play in playoffs when the games matter. Why should he play physical in a nothing game during a huge grind against non-conference teams?



Big hits is not a part of Lidströms game but saying he's not playing physical at all is just beyond stupid.

Thank you for the video.

The hit by Lidstrom clearly illustrates why he rarely plays physical - his technique is very poor.

Watching the video clearly illustrates this. A proper angle would have allowed Lidstrom to rub the Dallas forward against the boards leading with his shoulder and right side, causing equal or superior damage while simultaneously stripping the player of the puck, maintaining momentum and starting the transition game.

A player that recognizes his limitations and plays away from his weaknesses is to be appreciated for such traits but the appreciation does not correct or eliminate the weaknesses.

The other fact is that the other leading defensemen from the last decade - Norris candidates/pretenders simply had more or greater weaknesses.

One final point. The meaningless game or stepping it up during the playoffs position is a cop-out. Developing bad habits is never a positive. Also injuries tend to happen at any time especially when players are not prepared or completely concentrated.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Are you honestly trying to blame Bourque for not winning a Cup from 80-92 against 2 of the 4 greatest dynasty teams in the history of the league and then over the powerhouse Pens in 91 and 92....seriously?

Lidstrom couldn't even lead a team that finished with the second most points in league history to the Cup and you're blaming Bourque for not being able to lead underdog teams to it.

No I'm not blaming him. It has been said HERE that Bourque didn't play on very good teams and that's why his playoff success was minimal.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I wouldn't, but that is a disturbing amount of 1st round losses. You absolutely have to give Lidstrom a decisive edge in playoff play. Teams play a huge role, but Lidstrom, like Roy vs. Hasek, actually did it and has to get the edge.

I agree with this but at the same time what happened as soon as you put Bourque on a team that's equal to Lidstrom's Wings teams....he goes to the Conf final and wins a Cup.

 

[Reds4Life]

I agree with this but at the same time what happened as soon as you put Bourque on a team that's equal to Lidstrom's Wings teams....he goes to the Conf final and wins a Cup.

The only Wings team comparable to 01 Avs is the 02 Wings. All the other (97,98,08) are not even close to 01 Avs or 02 Wings when it comes to "names".

 

[CC Chiefs*]

I agree with this but at the same time what happened as soon as you put Bourque on a team that's equal to Lidstrom's Wings teams....he goes to the Conf final and wins a Cup.

Stop with the hypotheticals. So Bourque plays with Detroit and destroys his knee and his career is over. I show can hypotheticals too.

Has anybody stopped to think that MAYBE Lidstrom made some of those other Superstar players look better? Many of said Superstars left the DRW and fell off the map, and one big named that proved that was Fedorov.

BTW I like how your Bourque supporters breezed right by the videos showing Bourque gaffs but jumped on the Lidstrom/Umberger video.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yeah, let's look at the Umberger goal which was the 1st place Red Wings playing against the last place Flyers in a nothing game in the dog days of the regular season where the the entire Detroit team forgot to show up. I remember that game well.

If you want a valuable teaching tool as to how not to play a rushing forward Bourque has some doozies. These are both important playoff games about 10 years apart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDy78Qg1BXI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0xxSsEqjIk

Neither of those paints Bourque in a very good light at all.. committing himself wayyyy too early.

The point is if people look they are always going to find mistakes made even by great players like Lidstrom and Bourque.. you can't play as long as they have without getting burned once in a while.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Neither of those paints Bourque in a very good light at all.. committing himself wayyyy too early.

The point is if people look they are always going to find mistakes made even by great players like Lidstrom and Bourque.. you can't play as long as they have without getting burned once in a while.

Yes but the Bourque group jumped all over the Umberger clip like that was Lidstrom everyday way to play. BTW the Goring gaff has a lot more weight to it then a meaningless Umberger play.

 

[Rhiessan71]

The only Wings team comparable to 01 Avs is the 02 Wings. All the other (97,98,08) are not even close to 01 Avs or 02 Wings when it comes to "names".

What do "names" have to do with anything?
The whole point is that when Bourque finally got to play on a team that was on the same level as what Lidstrom played with the majority of his career, Bourque won a Cup.

Stop with the hypotheticals. So Bourque plays with Detroit and destroys his knee and his career is over. I show can hypotheticals too.

What hypothetical???
Bourque went to the Av's and won the Cup, that's a fact and what I was referring to!
Please try and keep up here ok.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yes but the Bourque group jumped all over the Umberger clip like that was Lidstrom everyday way to play. BTW the Goring gaff has a lot more weight to it then a meaningless Umberger play.

Yes and as we can see.. Bourque makes mistakes too and the ones you linked were way worse than Lidstrom keeping a guy at a very low scoring angle .. at least he was with the guy instead of trying to find his jockstrap like Bourque was in these too.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

What do "names" have to do with anything?
The whole point is that when Bourque finally got to play on a team that was on the same level as what Lidstrom played with the majority of his career, Bourque won a Cup.

Let's make one point very clear. The 01 Avs were winning that cup with or without Bourque.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Let's make one point very clear. The 01 Avs were winning that cup with or without Bourque.

Hahahahaha!!!!

You try and call me out for being hypothetical and then reply with this....are you ****ing kidding me?

Give your head a shake son.

 

[Reds4Life]

What do "names" have to do with anything?
The whole point is that when Bourque finally got to play on a team that was on the same level as what Lidstrom played with the majority of his career, Bourque won a Cup.

LOL
01 Avs team is AT WORST the second best team in the last 18 years or so. Maybe even the best, depends on whether you like them better than 02 Wings.

 

[Rhiessan71]

LOL
01 Avs team is AT WORST the second best team in the last 18 years or so. Maybe even the best, depends on whether you like them better than 02 Wings.

...and yet the '96 Wings were prolly the best team in the last 20 years and couldn't win the Cup.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Hahahahaha!!!!

You try and call me out for being hypothetical and then reply with this....are you ****ing kidding me?

Give your head a shake son.

Son? Based on your profile I was playing hockey before you were born.

BTW most of your posts are based on hypotheticals.

Were are your comments on the Bourque videos?

 

[Reds4Life]

...and yet the '96 Wings were prolly the best team in the last 20 years and couldn't win the Cup.

So what?
You said Bourque played for a team (01 Avs) that was as good as majority of teams Lidstrom was part of. That is just ********.
The only comparable team is 02 Wings.
Fact is, Bourque was unable to win a Cup in Boston so he went to one of the best teams of the decade and won a Cup. Congratulations.
Lidstrom stayed loyal to his team and won 4 Cups. Facts are facts.


Looking forward to excuses for piss poor plays by Bourque showed in the vids above, I guess he did not use his toolbox right. He should have paid more attention in the hockey school and should not develop bad habits. His poke-checking technique could use some help. Apparently, he was not willing to take the puck away from the forward

 

[CC Chiefs*]

...and yet the '96 Wings were prolly the best team in the last 20 years and couldn't win the Cup.

How about in history points wise. The 3 seed in 97 fit them just fine.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

So what?
You said Bourque played for a team (01 Avs) that was as good as majority of teams Lidstrom was part of. That is just ********.
The only comparable team is 02 Wings.
Fact is, Bourque was unable to win a Cup in Boston so he went to one of the best teams of the decade and won a Cup. Congratulations.
Lidstrom stayed loyal to his team and won 4 Cups. Facts are facts.


Looking forward to excuses for piss poor plays by Bourque showed in the vids above, I guess he did not use his "toolbox" right. He should have paid more attention in the hockey school and should not develop bad habits. His poke-checking technique could use some help.

I've been waiting also. But it's been like watching Michigan J Frog when he was being watched.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Son? Based on your profile I was playing hockey before you were born.

BTW most of your posts are based on hypotheticals.

Were are your comments on the Bourque videos?

I'm sorry but based on some of your previous posts, I am highly doubtful you were born before me, let alone much before 1990.

Are you asking me if my comments are based on the Bourque video's or are you asking me where my comments on the Bourque video's are?

So what?
You said Bourque played for a team that was as good as majority of teams Lidstrom was part of. That is just ********.
Fact is, Bourque was unable to win a Cup in Boston so he went to one of the best teams of the decade and won a Cup. Congratulations.
Lidstrom stayed loyal to his team and won 4 Cups. Facts are facts.

C'mon dude, Bourque didn't win any Cups because he was so loyal to the Bruins and their fans.
I don't think there was a Bruins fan that wasn't happy when he finally got a Cup with the Av's.
In fact, I think almost everyone in hockey was happy to see him finally get that Cup, as no one deserved it more.

Yeah, facts are facts and it's a fact that Lidstrom has had the privilege and luck of playing on much better teams than Bourque has for the majority of his career.


For the record, I neither made comments about the Bourque vids or the Lidstrom vids. I have always maintained through this entire thread that I felt Lidstrom holds the edge defensively over Bourque.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Coaching

Let's get this thread back on track - examining birth certificates is not part of the agenda.

The overlooked element in the Bourque / Lidstrom discussion is coaching.

Nicklas Lidstrom had a distinct advantage for the vast majority of his career in Detrroit because he was supported with elite coaching first by Scotty Bowman, then by Mike Babcock. Scotty Bowman in particular had the ability to recognize strengths and weaknesses.He would overcome weaknesses by modifying team styles or compensating with linemates or thru defensive pairings. Prime example being Guy Lafleur who was not all that interested in the defensive side of things. Bowman managed to work around this trait by matching Lafleur with Jacques Lemaire who took care of the defensive side of things. Lafleur and the team flourished as a result. Bowman did the same with Lidstrom - evidenced the 1997 playoffs against Philadelphia. Lidstrom had superior quickness compared to Lindros with the sense to avoid a physical confrontation with a frustrated Lindros. Lindros was deflated as a result.

Conversely Ray Bourque with the Bruins had to make do with weak coaching. Seriously doubt that any of his coaches with the Bruins pre 1995 would make the top 100 of coaches.Going into a playoff series against the Bruins more often than not was a question of preparation and in game adjustments. Significant edge to the opponent.

 

[Reds4Life]

Yeah, facts are facts and it's a fact that Lidstrom has had the privilege and luck of playing on much better teams than Bourque has for the majority of his career.

Has it ever occured to you that Lidstrom was the best player on majority (maybe all) of those teams? That he is the most important player Wings have had since Gordie Howe? Bourque played for mediocre teams, but he also played for several good Boston teams and had legitimate shot at the Cup, did not work out very well for him, but he was pretty close.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Has it ever occured to you that Lidstrom was the best player on majority (maybe all) of those teams? That he is the most important player Wings have had since Gordie Howe? Bourque played for mediocre teams, but he also played for several good Boston teams and had legitimate shot at the Cup, did not work out very well for him, but he was pretty close.

One of those teams was a #1 seed that couldn't make it out of the 1st round.

 

[Rhiessan71]

And you're still doing it. Move on it has nothing to do with you, it the others that have disappeared.

If it had nothing to with me then why did and do you continue to quote my posts to make a point about it???

Just be a man and appologize for trying to bring me into something I deliberately had no part in.

Has it ever occured to you that Lidstrom was the best player on majority (maybe all) of those teams? That he is the most important player Wings have had since Gordie Howe? Bourque played for mediocre teams, but he also played for several good Boston teams and had legitimate shot at the Cup, did not work out very well for him, but he was pretty close.

The difference is you can make arguments for a host of other players on those Wings teams that might of been as important or maybe even more important than Lidstrom.

That's not the case with Bourque and wasn't till he went to the Av's.

My point is Lidstrom didn't even have to be the best player to win all 4 Cups.
Until Bourque went to the Av's, he didn't have that support and the Bruins only went as far as he could carry them. He didn't have 3, 4 ,5 or more players that could step up and get it done when he wasn't on the ice.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Stop with the hypotheticals. So Bourque plays with Detroit and destroys his knee and his career is over. I show can hypotheticals too.

Has anybody stopped to think that MAYBE Lidstrom made some of those other Superstar players look better? Many of said Superstars left the DRW and fell off the map, and one big named that proved that was Fedorov.

BTW I like how your Bourque supporters breezed right by the videos showing Bourque gaffs but jumped on the Lidstrom/Umberger video.

Here is the 1st post I made to you on the videos. Note "your supporters".

 

[CC Chiefs*]

If it had nothing to with me then why did and do you continue to quote my posts to make a point about it???

Just be a man and appologize for trying to bring me into something I deliberately had no part in.



The difference is you can make arguments for a host of other players on those Wings teams that might of been as important or maybe even more important than Lidstrom.

That's not the case with Bourque and wasn't till he went to the Av's.

My point is Lidstrom didn't even have to be the best player to win all 4 Cups.
Until Bourque went to the Av's, he didn't have that support and the Bruins only went as far as he could carry them. He didn't have 3, 4 ,5 or more players that could step up and get it done when he wasn't on the ice.

But a strong argument can be made Lidstrom was the best player in all 4 SC wins.