I think the consensus around here (and I agree) is that Bourque is #4 all-time and Lidstrom is #5.
I would take Bourque. Lidstrom has clearly been the most dominant defenseman of the past decade, and his accomplishments and accolades are on par with Bourque: however, I don't think you can discount the fact that Bourque had greater competition for his Norris Trophy wins, in Coffey, Leetch, MacInnis, Chelios, Stevens, Murphy, etc. Lidstrom's competition post 2000 primarily consisted of Pronger, Niedermayer, Chara, Boyle, amongst others.
To me, Bourque is the 4th greatest defenseman of all time (behind, obviously, Orr, Harvey and Shore). I have Lidstrom around 6th or 7th. I know I'm in the minority, but I rate Potvin for sure ahead of Lidstrom. I'm still up in the air about how to rank Lidstrom, Robinson, Kelly, and maybe Park for the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th spots (I say maybe Park because I'm pretty convinced the other three are slightly superior, so Park should get the 9th spot on my list).
Def Ray Bourque, but then again, I also think Lidstrom is overrated
I'm not sure if you are in the minority. I don't think you can really make a case that Lidstrom was better than Potvin in each of their peaks. If you saw both play, no doubt Potvin was the better player in his peak, you wouldn't pass him up as a GM if you saw both play live.
That being said he played "only" 15 years. Lidstrom has played about 20. Does the longevity put him over the top? That and the fact like Potvin he has just flat out won his whole career, even better. Lidstrom does get a break here or there too. There is no way he was a 2nd team all-star this year over Pronger but the voters chose this. So yeah he does get the nice guy vote like that example there. But he still didn't sustain his greatness quite as long as Bourque did. 19 year end all-star teams is absolutely impossible to beat and you have to give credit to Bourque for that. So Bourque beats him in longevity, peak value and as far as I am concerned all around game as well by a pinch.
Lidstrom is very close to Potvin, and that group as a whole is extremely close to Kelly and Robinson as well although most would still put the former higher. But by now there is little case a person can make that Coffey, Chelios, Park etc. were better. Since the lockout I think Lidstrom is clear from that pack for sure.
I'm not sure if you are in the minority. I don't think you can really make a case that Lidstrom was better than Potvin in each of their peaks. If you saw both play, no doubt Potvin was the better player in his peak, you wouldn't pass him up as a GM if you saw both play live.
That being said he played "only" 15 years. Lidstrom has played about 20. Does the longevity put him over the top? That and the fact like Potvin he has just flat out won his whole career, even better. Lidstrom does get a break here or there too. There is no way he was a 2nd team all-star this year over Pronger but the voters chose this. So yeah he does get the nice guy vote like that example there. But he still didn't sustain his greatness quite as long as Bourque did. 19 year end all-star teams is absolutely impossible to beat and you have to give credit to Bourque for that. So Bourque beats him in longevity, peak value and as far as I am concerned all around game as well by a pinch.
Lidstrom is very close to Potvin, and that group as a whole is extremely close to Kelly and Robinson as well although most would still put the former higher. But by now there is little case a person can make that Coffey, Chelios, Park etc. were better. Since the lockout I think Lidstrom is clear from that pack for sure.
I would go with Bourque. But to say Lidstrom is overrated is one of the goofiest statements I've heard.
Bourque for sure.
I think when ranking defensemen, a few things are certain:
1. Orr is #1.
2. Harvey and Shore are interchangeable at #2 and #3.
3. Bourque is #4.
4. Lidstrom is #5.
Okay I understand the legacy of Shore, not sure if anyone on these boards actaully saw him play but alot of this ranking is based on his 4 Harts it seems to me.
Aside from being a 6 team league (okay it was a 10 to 7 team league) during the time Shore played, what exactly was the criteria and evaluation in the Hart voting in those years and how did the voters change thier criteria over the years?
Somewhere along the way, the best defensive Dman lost out on being able to win the Hart and one of the top scorers usually gets it now. At a glance it appears that this change happened a couple of years after Shore's last Hart in the early 40's.
I wish I had the time but maybe we could look at how the voting patterns for the Hart has changed over the years and how we should treat that in our evalutions.
The granting of assists was eratic to say the least so offensive stats don't tell the whole story but to call a guy who played 14 years in the NHL and won only 2 Stanley Cups during that time might be an overstament to call for certain that he was better than Bourque and Lidstrom who excelled for a longer period of time at a high level.
During a quick check I also noticed that several of those Bruin teams had 7 HHOF on those teams which accounted for about half of all the games played by Bruin players during those particualr years.
Maybe all of those guys deserve to be in the Hall or maybe it was just easier to get into the Hall back in those days but for all of their talent to only have 2 cups seems to be a bit of an under achievment IMO.
I would slide Bourque and Lidstrom up on the list and Lidstrom isn't finished yet.
I know that this is going to cause a stir but maybe we can look at the eratic nature of the NHL during Shore's years and the different way voters have voted for the Hart over the years and ask if he truly was better than Borque or Lidstrom, which I don't think he was.
It's not just his Harts; Shore was the best defenseman in the league at least 8 times as demonstrated by all-star voting.
As for offense, Shore was the best offensive defenseman of his time, he just also happened to be elite defensively, and physically fearsome. Don't let the raw numbers fool you.
Those Bruin teams were very strong, and Shore was easily their MVP - he played most of every game, of course he had something to do with their record. And a lot of their HHOFers that they had were of the weaker variety - Bobby Bauer, Woody Dumart, Cooney Weiland, Harry Oliver.
The biggest change in voting was that defensemen got their own trophy in 1954, and voters were immediately reluctant to give them Hart votes.
And what's this about it being a 7-10-team league? There's this guy in this section who thinks that matters, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on in that debate. Don't be like that guy.
Okay I understand the legacy of Shore, not sure if anyone on these boards actaully saw him play but alot of this ranking is based on his 4 Harts it seems to me.
Aside from being a 6 team league (okay it was a 10 to 7 team league) during the time Shore played, what exactly was the criteria and evaluation in the Hart voting in those years and how did the voters change thier criteria over the years?
Somewhere along the way, the best defensive Dman lost out on being able to win the Hart and one of the top scorers usually gets it now. At a glance it appears that this change happened a couple of years after Shore's last Hart in the early 40's.
I wish I had the time but maybe we could look at how the voting patterns for the Hart has changed over the years and how we should treat that in our evalutions.
The granting of assists was eratic to say the least so offensive stats don't tell the whole story but to call a guy who played 14 years in the NHL and won only 2 Stanley Cups during that time might be an overstament to call for certain that he was better than Bourque and Lidstrom who excelled for a longer period of time at a high level.
During a quick check I also noticed that several of those Bruin teams had 7 HHOF on those teams which accounted for about half of all the games played by Bruin players during those particualr years.
Maybe all of those guys deserve to be in the Hall or maybe it was just easier to get into the Hall back in those days but for all of their talent to only have 2 cups seems to be a bit of an under achievment IMO.
I would slide Bourque and Lidstrom up on the list and Lidstrom isn't finished yet.
I know that this is going to cause a stir but maybe we can look at the eratic nature of the NHL during Shore's years and the different way voters have voted for the Hart over the years and ask if he truly was better than Borque or Lidstrom, which I don't think he was.
Shore was a revolutionary player, before him most defenseman would stay around center ice and not think about scoring. Shore would rush the puck up the ice looking to create scoring opportunities. When Orr came into the NHL, many compared Orr to Shore for their ability to rush the puck up the ice. Scoring in double digits in a 44 game season for a defenseman is remarkable, scoring in that period was lower than in the ‘dead puck’ era (except 1929-30).
But it wasn’t just scoring, Shore was the whole package, elite defensively, physically intimidating, a mean SOB who was hated everywhere but Boston. Shore is the reason why professional hockey succeeded in Boston. Why do you think many Bruins fans put so much importance on having a tough and physical team? Eddie Shore helped create the culture of that team when he arrived and it has stuck since then.
I do agree that some of the HHOF guys are of the weaker type but 2 Stanely cups in a 14 year career is what it is. I know that teams win cups but great players should be able to lead their teams to greatness more often IMO and yes it is way easier for a team to win a cup in a 7-10 team league than a 30 team league, something I think you might even agree with.
There are some gaps in his leagacy though as for some reason he didn't win a Hart until he was 30 which was one of his last 2 "top offensive seasons. his 36 and 38 hart trophies where as a defensive dman as he totalled 19 and 17 points in those seasons.
Not sure we can say that he was the best offensive Dman during his 14 years as some of the top players played both at forward and D and that leads to the next point.
It's those 4 Harts that come into question in my mind and it's not a given that he would have won 8 Norris trophies with his 7 1st team selections and 1 2nd, there where other good Dmen in the elague at the time as well.
Lets acknowledge that he was in the NHL at the rigth time and other dmen where doing the same.
I'm not saying that he wasn't the best Dman of his era but it was an eratic era and Lidstrom and Bourque are better players playing in a much better NHL for a longer period of time IMO and having the same imapct on their teams as shore did.