Rantanen vs Necas points race to end of season.

[tarheelhockey]

I think the Canes were better before Rantanen and then Stankoven.

Their record does not reflect that.

Even if you liked their roster more on paper with Necas, the fact is that he was leaving. It was never about Necas vs X, it was about Zero vs X.

Hall isn;t the problem.... the problem is paying up for a chance to win it all and giving up because they couldn't get something done that should have been mandatory before the deal was completed.

Rantanen signaled a willingness to sign in Carolina. The understanding was that they would give it their best shot, and if it fell through, they would still have an elite winger to make a run at the Cup.

Instead he came in and played like shit, then started sulking around and wasting ice time giving no serious effort. You’re saying you’d rather keep that dynamic on your team going into the playoffs?

I mean, just look at their record with him and without him. It’s night and day. He was sandbagging the entire top line and wasting everyone’s time, something had to be done.

you bolster your lineup to give up a couple weeks later and downgrade

Rantanen was on the team for 6 weeks, this was not some short term adjustment issue.

Id respect it more if they tried to win it all and lose Rantanen for nothing.

Again, that was the plan until he actively tanked.

 

[Eltuna]

I think you're stretching all of this quite a bit to find reasons to be upset with him. Why is it his fault and not the Avs?

I would agree that people blaming Rantanen are not seeing the situation clearly. For me Occam’s razor would suggest that the Avs just didn’t see Rantanen as being worth the contract that they knew he would need and took the opportunity to trade him before they would be forced to sign him to it.

More teams should have the guts to take that approach if they don’t fully believe in the player. It worked for Florida with Huberdeau and while still early it is working out for the Avs too.

Another one of these situations I can see is with the Oilers & Bouchard, if you don’t think the player is worth the money that their stats will command then just bite the bullet and move them.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

still a rental, could have been had for cheap anyways, I never said Hall was an issue.
Im arguing that acquiring Rantanen in the first place without him signed was the mistake.

And we’ve repeatedly explained that

A: Rantanen wasn’t going to sign with Carolina
and
B: The player(s) they traded for Rantanen were on the way out anyway. They were actively shopping Necas this offseason, and while Drury would have been a nice player to keep, he already filed for arbitration once, which is a pretty good precursor to later contract disputes.

And you can keep claiming that the team was better before the Rantanen trade, but it certainly doesn’t reflect in their record. And the deals they made set them up better for the future while keeping them contending in the present.

You really should just admit you didn’t research this enough before making your original claims and are now too far into it to admit you’re wrong.

 

[Frobbo]

At this point I think each team and fan base is pretty happy with the trades. You are splitting hairs to determine a "winner". Playoff production and longevity TBD. Three pretty savvy front offices.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Their record does not reflect that.

Even if you liked their roster more on paper with Necas, the fact is that he was leaving. It was never about Necas vs X, it was about Zero vs X.



Rantanen signaled a willingness to sign in Carolina. The understanding was that they would give it their best shot, and if it fell through, they would still have an elite winger to make a run at the Cup.

Instead he came in and played like shit, then started sulking around and wasting ice time giving no serious effort. You’re saying you’d rather keep that dynamic on your team going into the playoffs?

I mean, just look at their record with him and without him. It’s night and day. He was sandbagging the entire top line and wasting everyone’s time, something had to be done.



Rantanen was on the team for 6 weeks, this was not some short term adjustment issue.



Again, that was the plan until he actively tanked.

CAR is a top team they were winning games before the trade too so the whole record thing means very little.

well then it should have been done BEFORE the trade was completed.... I dunno what else to say there.

thats the gamble but Rants is good enough to figure it out, it wouldnt last. I recall Aho going on one hell of a pointless streak the season before too,

still goes back to should have been signed before the deal was completed.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

And we’ve repeatedly explained that

A: Rantanen wasn’t going to sign with Carolina
and
B: The player(s) they traded for Rantanen were on the way out anyway. They were actively shopping Necas this offseason, and while Drury would have been a nice player to keep, he already filed for arbitration once, which is a pretty good precursor to later contract disputes.

And you can keep claiming that the team was better before the Rantanen trade, but it certainly doesn’t reflect in their record. And the deals they made set them up better for the future while keeping them contending in the present.

You really should just admit you didn’t research this enough before making your original claims and are now too far into it to admit you’re wrong.

if Rantanen wasnt going to sign in Carolina and your going to trade him then you dont trade for him, and if you do trade for him its guaranteed he signs and the deal doesnt go through until he does. its that simple.

CAR was winning before the trade too and no Im not wrong. it was a bad all round move. amateur move by CAR

 

[MrHeiskanen]

Stars owner net worth: roughly $4.3 billion
Avalanche owner net worth: roughly $18 billion - not counting his wife who is worth about $12 billion herself


If either of these teams is likely to implement an internal cap, I'm thinking it's probably the Stars.

12 year old kid business take.

Lets look at the viability of the business.. which is what matters.

Dallas Stars $210 million annual revenue. (Estimated)
Colorado $182 million annual revenue. (Estimated)

Billionaires wives are not in the business of taking their net worth and funding hockey teams.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

if Rantanen wasnt going to sign in Carolina and your going to trade him then you dont trade for him, and if you do trade for him its guaranteed he signs and the deal doesnt go through until he does. its that simple.

CAR was winning before the trade too and no Im not wrong. it was a bad all round move. amateur move by CAR

So you’re saying because Rantanen wasn’t going to sign an 8-year deal before the trade from Colorado (and he wasn’t. He made it clear his desire was to stay in Colorado), Carolina should have never for traded for him. Thereby staying with Necas and continue to get less and less value for him in a trade before he hits UFA on the short-term contract he just signed.

And that’s a better move, in your mind, than trading Necas for a legitimate shot at a superstar, then flipping said superstar for more value than Necas would have returned? Is your name Chuck Fletcher, by any chance?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

So you’re saying because Rantanen wasn’t going to sign an 8-year deal before the trade from Colorado (and he wasn’t. He made it clear his desire was to stay in Colorado), Carolina should have never for traded for him. Thereby staying with Necas and continue to get less and less value for him in a trade before he hits UFA on the short-term contract he just signed.

And that’s a better move, in your mind, than trading Necas for a legitimate shot at a superstar, then flipping said superstar for more value than Necas would have returned? Is your name Chuck Fletcher, by any chance?

sounds like he wasnt going to be a fit to me. alot of risk. if your plan is to try and sign him and if he wont then we will just trade him while being contenders is a bad move and poor asset management.

why not deal with Necas next season and add to your roster?

 

[flyfysher]

1. Canes weren’t going to be able to keep Necas.
2. Canes weren’t able to sign Rants before the trade. Normally, I’d agree but the info they had was that he was open to signing there. So their GM made the decision to go for the elite finisher which they need. It didn’t pan out but I don’t begrudge a GM of a contending team for trying to get the player to complete their team so they can win the SC.
3. You look at it like Stars got the best player. I look at it as a matter of fit but GMs look at a superstar player and instantly think this is it. This is the panacea. Rants wasn’t a great fit for the Canes system.
4. Canes got a very good return. Everyone always focuses on the superstar player but I look at it in terms of what completes your team? You need to be able to roll four effective lines to win the SC. So they didn’t get the superstar finisher but they solidified that third line with Stankhoven and picked up a lot of draft capital. You dismiss late firsts but anyone who has been around at the TDL knows you need draft picks. They’re more valuable than you give credit for especially because the Canes also will be very flexible cap wise.
5. Stars supposedly got the best player in Rants. I’m sure Rants will eventually break out scoring wise but I’m not sure he’s a good fit for the Stars especially considering they need to strengthen their D. Rants and Hintz don’t have natural chemistry. So what to do? Play him with Duchene? Say that works out. Then you need to re-up Duchene and he won’t come cheap because 2Cs are in very high demand. He’s not going to sign for another $3M for one year given his age. He’ll want term and a lot more money. In the meantime you’ve got a $12M W for the next 8 years on your second line with Duchene or third line with Johnston. Stars fans like to say they have three first lines. They already had one of the deepest F groups. This was just gilding the lily. Okay, work with that salary structure for the next 8 years. With the cap going up, I read they’re okay next year but thereafter will have to make some hard choices. They’re already talking about dumping JRob. Also, the Stars will go into the POs with Lyubushkin, Ceci, Dumba and Bischel and a $12M winger who isn’t excelling on his line.
6. If Necas proved anything to me is that you don’t necessarily need a superstar winger to make a far better and stronger team because he’s a FIT in the Avs’ system, he allows them flexibility and versatility to fill out other lines and not just his own, and his cap hit is only $6.5M for another year. He has also supercharged the Avs PP. I wouldn’t be surprised if his points rival Rants during the RS since he’s playing in the Avs system now. For a contending team, to have that cap flexibility is vital. Most importantly, Necas moves his feet and can drive his own line. Something Rants did not do. He still hang out by the R dot on PPs waiting to be fed the puck? Avs also picked up Drury. Next time you think a superstar is going to fix everything look at the Avs fourth line. LOC-Drury-Kelly is a bomb fourth line. It’s critical in the POs. That’s why I don’t just look at it likes it’s just a simple trade in terms of return

So the way I see it is the Avs came out smelling like a rose. Canes did okay and they’re well positioned to make a move as a contending team in the very near future with lots of draft capital and cap space IF they play their cards right. Stars’ acquisition is still TBD. Again though, I expect Rants to break out eventually. Still, I’d say to any team that’s interested in making trades to be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

This isn’t just a simplistic analysis that the Stars got the best player. Context matters especially going forward.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

sounds like he wasnt going to be a fit to me. alot of risk. if your plan is to try and sign him and if he wont then we will just trade him while being contenders is a bad move and poor asset management.

For Bolded: Why? Why is it a bad move and why is it poor asset management? They took a player that had the value of two 2nds last September (Necas) and turned him + Drury + 2nd + 4th into Hall + Stankoven + two 1sts + two 3rds by the deadline of that season. That’s, objectively, a positive return.

why not deal with Necas next season and add to your roster?

Necas’ value (for Carolina) was never going to be higher than it was when Carolina traded him. He had a very good start to the season and that raised his value more than what was offered in the offseason. But had they kept him till next season (as you’re suggesting), not only would he intrinsically have less value because he’d have less term left on his current contract, but there was also no guarantee that he’d have a similar successful season next year. If we want to talk about “a lot of risk”, your suggestion would be it.

 

[flyfysher]

I would agree that people blaming Rantanen are not seeing the situation clearly. For me Occam’s razor would suggest that the Avs just didn’t see Rantanen as being worth the contract that they knew he would need and took the opportunity to trade him before they would be forced to sign him to it.

More teams should have the guts to take that approach if they don’t fully believe in the player. It worked for Florida with Huberdeau and while still early it is working out for the Avs too.

Another one of these situations I can see is with the Oilers & Bouchard, if you don’t think the player is worth the money that their stats will command then just bite the bullet and move them.

I agree but it depends on the return and how they’ll fit in your system over the long term.

 

[tarheelhockey]

CAR is a top team they were winning games before the trade too so the whole record thing means very little.

well then it should have been done BEFORE the trade was completed.... I dunno what else to say there.

thats the gamble but Rants is good enough to figure it out, it wouldnt last. I recall Aho going on one hell of a pointless streak the season before too,

still goes back to should have been signed before the deal was completed.

A true sign and trade was not an option (as demonstrated a second time in the Dallas trade). The thinking behind the deal, openly talked about at the time, was that Rantanen would be open to signing in Carolina so they would have a window to “sell” him on an extension. Otherwise he would be a very high-end rental.

In fact, he did listen to the pitch and took it seriously. All was fine except for the part where he played like shit. If you had asked prior to the deal how Rantanen would look on a PP ripping one timers from Aho and Burns, the unanimous opinion would be “not as good as with MacKinnon and Makar, but still great”. In reality he was awful and was not mentally aligned with the role. After weeks of struggling, he decided not to commit to staying. Once he made that decision, he stopped competing. At that point, the idea of keeping him as a rental went out the window.

This was not like Aho being committed long term, competing hard every night, and fighting a cold streak. Rantanen had to go, for the Canes and for himself.

Prior to Rantanen: 30-16-3
During Rantanen: 7-6-0
After Rantanen: 7-2-0

I mean, what are you gonna do? The home run swing didn’t work out, but you certainly don’t want to keep chopping at the ball and strike out pointlessly.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

For Bolded: Why? Why is it a bad move and why is it poor asset management? They took a player that had the value of two 2nds last September (Necas) and turned him + Drury + 2nd + 4th into Hall + Stankoven + two 1sts + two 3rds by the deadline of that season. That’s, objectively, a positive return.



Necas’ value (for Carolina) was never going to be higher than it was when Carolina traded him. He had a very good start to the season and that raised his value more than what was offered in the offseason. But had they kept him till next season (as you’re suggesting), not only would he intrinsically have less value because he’d have less term left on his current contract, but there was also no guarantee that he’d have a similar successful season next year. If we want to talk about “a lot of risk”, your suggestion would be it.

Necas was worth more than 2x 2nds he was over ppg. I dunno what to tell you I dont think it was a good move, Hall could have been had for cheap anyways so its really down to Necas vs Stankoven.
the 1sts are late, they are nice but nothing great the ol quantity over quality type

whats the goal? its to win the Stanley Cup and CAR is a worse team today than they were, they could have added Hall and kept Necas who was a better fit. or just gambled and ran it with Rantanen expecting him to turn things around.

Necas not wanting to extend doesnt matter he's not UFA, deal with it next season, who knows minds change with time and might want to stay but trading for an elite player is fine but having the mindset that if we cant get him signed then we will trade him makes no sense. maybe as a rebuilder but CAR are contenders.

imo bad asset management

 

[Arthur Morgan]

A true sign and trade was not an option (as demonstrated a second time in the Dallas trade). The thinking behind the deal, openly talked about at the time, was that Rantanen would be open to signing in Carolina so they would have a window to “sell” him on an extension. Otherwise he would be a very high-end rental.

In fact, he did listen to the pitch and took it seriously. All was fine except for the part where he played like shit. If you had asked prior to the deal how Rantanen would look on a PP ripping one timers from Aho and Burns, the unanimous opinion would be “not as good as with MacKinnon and Makar, but still great”. In reality he was awful and was not mentally aligned with the role. After weeks of struggling, he decided not to commit to staying. Once he made that decision, he stopped competing. At that point, the idea of keeping him as a rental went out the window.

This was not like Aho being committed long term, competing hard every night, and fighting a cold streak. Rantanen had to go, for the Canes and for himself.

Prior to Rantanen: 30-16-3
During Rantanen: 7-6-0
After Rantanen: 7-2-0

I mean, what are you gonna do? The home run swing didn’t work out, but you certainly don’t want to keep chopping at the ball and strike out pointlessly.

if it wasnt an option CAR should have been fine with the gamble and moved forward. Im just gnna keep it kinda short cause Ill just be repeating what ive already said a few times.

and yeah that sometimes happens but players like Rantanen figure it out. I recall last season Aho went on a major cold streak for almost a month and he's been great. was only a matter of time before Rants snapped out of it.

to be fair the home run swing wasnt really given a chance, doesnt matter anymore anyways

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Necas was worth more than 2x 2nds he was over ppg. I dunno what to tell you I dont think it was a good move, Hall could have been had for cheap anyways so its really down to Necas vs Stankoven.
the 1sts are late, they are nice but nothing great the ol quantity over quality type

whats the goal? its to win the Stanley Cup and CAR is a worse team today than they were, they could have added Hall and kept Necas who was a better fit. or just gambled and ran it with Rantanen expecting him to turn things around.

Necas not wanting to extend doesnt matter he's not UFA, deal with it next season, who knows minds change with time and might want to stay but trading for an elite player is fine but having the mindset that if we cant get him signed then we will trade him makes no sense. maybe as a rebuilder but CAR are contenders.

imo bad asset management

Yeah, you’ve said all this already and keep asserting things that are, factually, incorrect. I’ll bold them just so you can find them easily. Opinions are fine, but there’s no argument to be had if you keep asserting things that are factually untrue to be true.

 

[To Be Determined]

still a rental, could have been had for cheap anyways, I never said Hall was an issue.
Im arguing that acquiring Rantanen in the first place without him signed was the mistake.

is it your belief that the return for rantanen from carolina would have been the same if the deal was contingent on him signing an extension? i think the price would have been much higher, and the canes made the deal they did because they could pay a rental price and then try to extend once he was here.

i guess you can make the argument that at least if the canes had insisted on an extension, it would have caught rantanen in the lie / negotiation tactic and spared us the drama.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hall could have been had for cheap anyways so its really down to Necas vs Stankoven

At this point you’re just making up a reality that doesn’t exist.

The goals Hall is scoring for Carolina actually do matter here. Necas was not likely to score at a higher rate if he had stayed. So if you’re pushing the idea of “keep Necas for this year and add more”, you can’t just dismiss that his production has been largely replaced by the guys they acquired, while also adding more trade assets.

If your next comment is that they should have added more talent for 2025, I’ll stop you there and point to where they traded for Mikko Rantanen.

All of this stuff involves risk. Sometimes bets pan out and sometimes they don’t. They took at a shot at a big talent, he turned out to not be the fit they were hoping for, and they pivoted to players who are a better fit plus came with additional trade capital. That’s about as good of a scenario as they had on the table, given the circumstances.

 

[tarheelhockey]

if it wasnt an option CAR should have been fine with the gamble and moved forward. Im just gnna keep it kinda short cause Ill just be repeating what ive already said a few times.

and yeah that sometimes happens but players like Rantanen figure it out. I recall last season Aho went on a major cold streak for almost a month and he's been great. was only a matter of time before Rants snapped out of it.

to be fair the home run swing wasnt really given a chance, doesnt matter anymore anyways

6 weeks is not a cold streak, its a lack of fit.

And Rantanen quit on the team. I can only assume you didn’t watch those games, because if you had you wouldn’t be insisting that he would have figured it out soon.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

if it wasnt an option CAR should have been fine with the gamble and moved forward. Im just gnna keep it kinda short cause Ill just be repeating what ive already said a few times.

and yeah that sometimes happens but players like Rantanen figure it out. I recall last season Aho went on a major cold streak for almost a month and he's been great. was only a matter of time before Rants snapped out of it.

to be fair the home run swing wasnt really given a chance, doesnt matter anymore anyways

The difference is we know what Aho is capable of in Rod’s system so a cold streak isn’t as big of a concern. Plus he’s already signed. There is no guarantee Rantanen would have figured it out at all, especially once it became clear he wanted out and quit on the team. Keeping a guy who actively quits on a team would be a massive mistake.

 

[LakeLivin]

There are very few sure things when it comes to big trades. A player like Rantanen almost never becomes available. I have no doubt The Borg (the committee structure Canes use instead of the typical NHL mostly "siloed" approach) did a cost/ risk/ benefit analysis which factored in the potential long term benefit of Rants as a Cane (could be franchise changing), the odds of extending Rants (given the information they had at the time), the potential benefit for a Cup run, the likely situation with Necas going forward, and the off ramp if things went south. They did the calculation and decided that it was worth a shot to make the trade, knowing it wasn't a given that he'd extend. It didn't hit, but the cost for taking the shot was discounted by the return they got when it became clear it wasn't going to work out. That fits in with the Borg's very public philosophy that they're not afraid to take chances and are willing to accept some Ls as long as they're sufficiently outnumbered by Ws.

I get that many here either don't understand such a philosophy or don't agree with it; some Canes fans feel the same. But the majority of us are not only happy with what the Borg has done to turn the franchise around but very optimistic about how they've got the Canes positioned going forward.

#hatersgonnahate

how exactly? because I think this all round has been very bad for CAR? they paid up for a player to try and win the cup but couldn;t get him signed long term (something that should have been done before the trade went through) and then sold him for less than what they originally paid. didn't even try to win with Rantanen.

if you can explain that would be appreciated.

I top post is from a different thread but I'll repeat it in answer to your question. You may not agree with the Canes philosophy but I hope you're not so rigidly locked into your opinion that you can't at least understand it, even while disagreeing.

In Ron Francis we had a GM who seemed to be unwilling to make a move unless it was a surefire winner. The front office didn't make a lot of moves and the team languished. The new administration isn't afraid to take chances, and the Canes are a LOT better off for it (in my humble opinion, of course). Monday morning quarterbacking is easy; being clairvoyant with regard to how things might turn out, not so much.

 

[Jixer19]

Does anyone remember what this thread was about? Feel like it has been derailed more times than not

 

[tarheelhockey]

Does anyone remember what this thread was about? Feel like it has been derailed more times than not

The original premise lost meaning when Rantanen imploded. Necas has been scoring close to 2x the points since the trade, so now that he’s ahead it would take quite a twist for him not to keep that lead.

 

[flyfysher]

still a rental, could have been had for cheap anyways, I never said Hall was an issue.
Im arguing that acquiring Rantanen in the first place without him signed was the mistake.

Normally I’d agree but the fact is the Canes truly believed they had legit chance to sign a superstar player that’d potentially be even more costly on the open market, they’d be gaining Rants for the POs and going forward, they were losing Necas anyway b/c they knew he wouldn’t re-up with them so get value for him, and Drury and the picks going the other way made it a calculated risk. When you realize the Canes management viewed Rants as one of the key pieces to take their team to the next level by acquiring a proven SC elite player and the option to turn around and unload him for assets as they did if the gamble failed then it made sense. It was a riverboat gambler move and they did well with their return. But to call it a mistake is inaccurate. They managed to get value which was impressive to me at least. I think they dodged a bullet. Rants couldn’t drive a line so he was complimentary to MacKinnon. Paying your top line like that makes your team top heavy.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

At this point you’re just making up a reality that doesn’t exist.

The goals Hall is scoring for Carolina actually do matter here. Necas was not likely to score at a higher rate if he had stayed. So if you’re pushing the idea of “keep Necas for this year and add more”, you can’t just dismiss that his production has been largely replaced by the guys they acquired, while also adding more trade assets.

If your next comment is that they should have added more talent for 2025, I’ll stop you there and point to where they traded for Mikko Rantanen.

All of this stuff involves risk. Sometimes bets pan out and sometimes they don’t. They took at a shot at a big talent, he turned out to not be the fit they were hoping for, and they pivoted to players who are a better fit plus came with additional trade capital. That’s about as good of a scenario as they had on the table, given the circumstances.

Hall was acquired for a 3rd..... seems pretty cheap to me so really whos better right now? Necas or Stankoven? the 1sts dont matter towards this years playoff run. seems like if u skipped the whole Rantanen deal you can get Hall still pretty easily