Rumor: Rantanen Extension is Close???

[SirLoinOfCloth]

Avs were just waiting on finalizing Middleton's contract, now they can move on to the next priority of Rants. His contract extension is super close now.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Now that Middleton is done they can afford to give Mikko the standard 250K overpay.

 

[cinchronicity]

I have been trying desperately to stay out of this thread, but here goes:

CMac is not an HFAvs poster. He is the GM of a business. Unlike those here, he does not have the luxury of destroying a team for a decade-long rebuild simply to load up for two years of a mythical 'window'. CMac needs butts in seats, drinking overpriced beer and soft drinks, and purchasing $250 replica jerseys. Since the NHL has such lousy TV deals, that is how teams make money. Rent, utilities, insurance, player salaries, staff salaries; these are the same whether 18,000 people are in the arena, or 8,000. Kroenke is notoriously cheap. He is not going to sit around losing money. With an average ticket price of $90, losing just 1000 tickets per game amounts to $3.7M Hell, it is $30 to park at Ball. Lose 1000 people parking for a season and it is $1.23M alone. Add in concessions and merchandise, and losing just 1000 tickets likely costs $7M per season. The factor lost ticket/merch/concession revenue during the playoffs which the team might not even make.

My point is that CMac is responsible for the entirety of the business. Sure, winning a Cup is a huge part of his job, too. But Kroenke is not going to stand for a decade of Blue Jacket type financial performances.

 

[LOFIN]

I have been trying desperately to stay out of this thread, but here goes:

CMac is not an HFAvs poster. He is the GM of a business. Unlike those here, he does not have the luxury of destroying a team for a decade-long rebuild simply to load up for two years of a mythical 'window'. CMac needs butts in seats, drinking overpriced beer and soft drinks, and purchasing $250 replica jerseys. Since the NHL has such lousy TV deals, that is how teams make money. Rent, utilities, insurance, player salaries, staff salaries; these are the same whether 18,000 people are in the arena, or 8,000. Kroenke is notoriously cheap. He is not going to sit around losing money. With an average ticket price of $90, losing just 1000 tickets per game amounts to $3.7M Hell, it is $30 to park at Ball. Lose 1000 people parking for a season and it is $1.23M alone. Add in concessions and merchandise, and losing just 1000 tickets likely costs $7M per season. The factor lost ticket/merch/concession revenue during the playoffs which the team might not even make.

My point is that CMac is responsible for the entirety of the business. Sure, winning a Cup is a huge part of his job, too. But Kroenke is not going to stand for a decade of Blue Jacket type financial performances.

I mean if you want to go about the "CMac needs to think about what makes money for the team" route, not re-signing one of the most popular players in the team is not exactly a way to do it...

 

[The Abusement Park]

I mean if you want to go about the "CMac needs to think about what makes money for the team" route, not re-signing one of the most popular players in the team is not exactly a way to do it...

Yup... The biggest way to lose casual fans, which is where money/attendance will be affected the most, is to get rid of one of the faces of the franchise.

 

[MacKaRant]

Yup... The biggest way to lose casual fans, which is where money/attendance will be affected the most, is to get rid of one of the faces of the franchise.

Exactly, that's why it took so long to trade Jost. Worried about losing all those puck bunny dollars

 

[Bender]

Ah, I see, yet another person who doesn't plan to be a fan in 6 years. Or... wait, do you actually want to cheer for a rebuilding team? Also, those same years Cale is going to be 32-34. Do we think he'll suck by then?

Maybe this is what makes me a heretic around here, but I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't want this team to constantly make short-term decisions to try to win a cup in a mythical "window". What I want is to try to ice a team with a genuine chance to win a cup every year, and to constantly retool and get younger where possible, while avoiding anchor contracts that will make the mythical window into a reality. Every team that ends up in a rebuild ends up there by overpaying their veterans in a vain attempt to keep the band together and by making bad decisions, usually driven by short-term thinking.



For f***s sake. Who are the actual comparables if not the players I listed? Some mythical unicorns? I'm starting to feel like you're not arguing in good faith here. I just took time to list off guys of similar age at the time they signed their contracts, same contract status, and you're still claiming they are not good enough.



You're welcome. My thinking is if Rantanen wants to be paid like MacKinnon, he should be able to drive his own line and elevate his linemates the way Nate can. I've watched Mikko closely since he was put with Mittestadt and now Colton. He doesn't seem to accomplish much out there. Nearly all his recent points have come when he's on the ice with Nate. Every once in a while he flashes his talent and pots one or makes a nice pass, but without Nate he looks a lot more like a passenger to me.

I don't think you're a heretic but these discussions already took place a long-time ago so many of us just don't want to get back into it.

Personally, I am and have always been on the side that IF Mikko doesn't want to accept a deal that is reasonable for the quality of WINGER that he is, that the Avs should trade him and get the best possible package back. (and NO that package would NOT include only picks and prospects or as A LOT of doomsayers seem to suggest : NOTHING )

I suggested in May that if they can't come to terms LAST summer on a deal that they should move him for a package that includes Necas+.

Rumor: - 2024 Trade Rumors and Free Agency Thread: Post Deadline

In all seriousness that is cheap for Crouse. He'd plug in as crease crasher on the power play that we'll be missing with Nuke and Lando and he has good speed. I think he would be a 30 goal man here. Trade Moose to the Mormons for Crouse + 2024 1st + Prospect (whoever Henchy says is worth the...

forums.hfboards.com

There is one massive problem with the Rantanen situation and I'm pretty sure that Mikko's camp are also quite aware of this : if they can't come to an agreement and he walks, the UFA wingers that would be a 'consolation prize' that would be available this summer coming up are slim pickings to say the least!!

1) Marner
.
.
.
2) Ehlers

Then a bunch of guys who just wouldn't be worth it like Duchene.

Keep in mind that it's quite possible that Marner and Ehlers both re-sign with their respective clubs as well... so then what ? You took Mikko down to the wire in a negotiation but if Marner isn't there and even a rather large downgrade of Ehlers isn't even there - then what the f*** are you going to do??? Does C-Mac really want to get into that kind of situation where he's seemingly backed into a corner and will need to fork-over Draisaitl money to a winger??

For me, that's why I believe that the odds that a trade goes down are higher than people might think for that exact reason. The whole 'we'll use him as our own rental' doesn't hold nearly as much weight when you realize that you have an extra $9M+ in cap space but need to potentially trade multiple 1st + your best prospects to even just maintain what you had.

So I am hopeful that C-Mac sets a date where they need to get a deal in place or else they need to make a move. I didn't mind when they went down to the wire with Landeskog because I was fairly certain they'd get it done but I believe this is a different situation. Mikko has already won the cup and seems really dug-in on what he and his agent feel they are worth.

 

[Bender]

Yup... The biggest way to lose casual fans, which is where money/attendance will be affected the most, is to get rid of one of the faces of the franchise.

Sorry, I just cannot agree with this.

I understand where some people are sort of coming from - they just want the player back, regardless of cost - no matter what. I just cannot share that view.

The whole idea that they need to sell tickets, concessions, merch, etc. and all that - to me, has always seemed a bit ridiculous - when that team already has MacKinnon AND Makar - TWO OF THE TOP-5 PLAYERS IN THE WORLD.

If that wasn't the case and Mikko was far and away the best player on the team - the way that Pastrnak is in Boston - then hell yeah, absolutely for sure, I get it but on THIS team?? No way.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Yes, I agree with trying to win now. I disagree that this means we must do things now that will make a rebuild more likely in the future. There's a middle ground, and its found by not handing out huge contracts to players likely to age poorly.



See, this is why I don't think you're being intellectually honest. I did look at RFA vs UFA, and the number of years, as well as age. I'll deal with cap percentage below.



All that would be true if everyone signed one year deals. But since deals are multi-year, it matters just as much what their cap percentage is in year 4 as it does when the contract was signed. MacKinnon may have been 15.09% when he signed the deal, but next year it will be less. That's one of the things that makes it a value contract. You can compare contracts with multiple years based on their cap percentage in the same year, because GMs are certainly going to factor in likely cap increases when signing multi-year deals.

I think the Avs agree with you.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Like I said before...Nate reset the market for Centers by 100K. Unless I am mistaken (happens a hell of a lot more than I'd care for) the current highest paid winger is Bread at 11.6M.

Does Rants really think he's so much better than Nate that not only should he reset the market for a winger by 100K, he should reset it by 2M+ and end up making 1.5M more than the man who is constantly setting him up? Rants doesn't create... he finishes. And he finishes plays like a god-damned champion and should be rewarded richly for it. But I think the maestro deserves top pay and right now that is Nate MacKinnon. I don't believe in internal salary caps, but I do believe the player that breaks Nate's cap should be Makar not Rantanen.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

To completely ignore league wide winger comparables is not something Mikko's camp is going to accept.

I would very much like to hear his camp's arguement for why he deserves more money than Nathan MacKinnon.

I agree he deserves more than Bread. Panarin is making 11.6M. Rants should be damn happy at 12.5M.

 

[LOFIN]

I would very much like to hear his camp's arguement for why he deserves more money than Nathan MacKinnon.

I agree he deserves more than Bread. Panarin is making 11.6M. Rants should be damn happy at 12.5M.

I don't think their camp does. The number 14M has been floated around, that's what he probably could get from some team as an UFA. However, when you adjust that to 8 year term offered by the Avs, should land somewhere around 12M. Two months ago, Kyper was talking about the number being somewhere between 11.875 and 12.5.

There is no way his camp thinks they should land 14M on an 8 year deal. That would be like 16M on the open market for 7 years. No team is going to pay him that much. That would be the going rate for McDavid.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I don't think their camp does. The number 14M has been floated around, that's what he probably could get from some team as an UFA. However, when you adjust that to 8 year term offered by the Avs, should land somewhere around 12M. Two months ago, Kyper was talking about the number being somewhere between 11.875 and 12.5.

There is no way his camp thinks they should land 14M on an 8 year deal. That would be like 16M on the open market for 7 years. No team is going to pay him that much. That would be the going rate for McDavid.

So what are they gunning for?

I've heard the Avs had an internal MacKinnon limit at this point. 12.5M seems like it should have been done in July. Or are the Avs holding their offers lower, like say 10M?

 

[CobraAcesS]

I would very much like to hear his camp's arguement for why he deserves more money than Nathan MacKinnon.

I agree he deserves more than Bread. Panarin is making 11.6M. Rants should be damn happy at 12.5M.

It's the percentage of cap argument.

I don't think the Avs are going to handcuff the roster structure for Mikko. That was clear to me the moment they signed Blackwood.

You could make a case they think Blackwood is more important than Mikko.

 

[LOFIN]

So what are they gunning for?

I've heard the Avs had an internal MacKinnon limit at this point. 12.5M seems like it should have been done in July.

Yeah well, apparently the Avs have had no interest in going anywhere near that. Which is fine, and not unexpected when you look at how the Landeskog negotiation went.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Yeah well, apparently the Avs have had no interest in going anywhere near that. Which is fine, and not unexpected when you look at how the Landeskog negotiation went.

Has anyone said what the best offer the Avs put forth was?

 

[LOFIN]

It's the percentage of cap argument.

Rantanen should still not make more than MacKinnon, even if the % of the cap is taken into account IMO. Winger vs center, and MacKinnon arguably has been clearly the 2nd best player in the world for a while now.

12.5 would be right at Pastrnak %, that's the absolute max number the Avs should be willing to do.

 

[Mighty Makar]

What’s Makar getting two years from now with Calgary?

 

[LOFIN]

Has anyone said what the best offer the Avs put forth was?

No, but "not in the same tier as MacK" is what Kyper said two months ago. So make of that what you will.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Has anyone said what the best offer the Avs put forth was?

Only that they haven't wanted to go near 11.5M

What’s Makar getting two years from now with Calgary?

15M, and sitting on two Conn Smythe trophies.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Rantanen should still not make more than MacKinnon, even if the % of the cap is taken into account IMO. Winger vs center, and MacKinnon arguably has been clearly the 2nd best player in the world for a while now.

12.5 would be right at Pastrnak %, that's the absolute max number the Avs should be willing to do.

Oh I agree.. That is the accountant argument though *adjust for inflation.

 

[LOFIN]

15M, and sitting on two Conn Smythe trophies.

If Cale was to go to the open market, or simply leave for Calgary, I bet that number starts with 16. He would be 28, signing for 7 years. Basically through his prime, one of the best defenders this sport has ever seen (assuming he doesn't fall off between now and then). Not to mention where cap is going to be in 3 years...

 

[the_fan]

I think we’re getting closer folks. Mikko should sign the extension sometime this decade

 

[CobraAcesS]

If Cale was to go to the open market, or simply leave for Calgary, I bet that number starts with 16. He would be 28, signing for 7 years. Basically through his prime, one of the best defenders this sport has ever seen (assuming he doesn't fall off between now and then). Not to mention where cap is going to be in 3 years...

That's accounting for him giving us a discount lol.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Only that they haven't wanted to go near 11.5M

I don't know what is more shocking.

1. The Avs are willing to risk Mikko over 1M a year.
2. Mikko appears to be offended by an offer of 92M.