norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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Rank those players, from best to "worst"
- Thread starter Bouboumaster
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Alexander Ovechkin
Jaromir Jagr
Marcel Dionne
Bobby Hull
Jean Béliveau
Maurice Richard
Guy Lafleur
Jaromir Jagr
Marcel Dionne
Bobby Hull
Jean Béliveau
Maurice Richard
Guy Lafleur
Hockey Outsider
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That's factually incorrect. Jagr was a top 5 scorer eight times in his career. Six of those were entirely without Lemieux (1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2006). In one of those years, Lemieux played 43 games (2001).
A more accurate statement would be that Jagr played with Lemieux for less than 20% of the time during his most productive seasons.
(Another way to look at it - Jagr won the Pearson three times. He played zero games with Lemieux during those years - 1999, 2000, and 2006).
Hockey Outsider
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Without getting into the specifics of Beliveau vs Ovechkin, keep in mind that there are more awards available today, which makes it easier for superstar players to get a higher trophy count.
For example - Beliveau led the league in goals twice. The Rocket Richard trophy wasn't around then (obviously - because Rocket Richard was still alive). But leading the league in goals is an objective statistical result. Either both players should get credit for doing this, or neither should.
The Conn Smythe trophy wasn't introduced until Beliveau was in his mid 30's (he still managed to win one). It's almost certain he would have won the Smythe in 1956 (he was the best player on the Cup winning team, set the all-time record for goals, and was one point short of the all-time record for points). It's not Beliveau's fault the award hadn't been created yet.
Also consider the Ted Lindsay award. That wasn't around back then (because Ted Lindsay was still playing). There's around a two-thirds overlap between the winner of the Hart and the Lindsay. Since Beliveau was a two-time Hart winner, he probably would have won one or two Lindsay awards.
I'm intentionally not going to comment on Beliveau vs Ovechkin. But my point is - when looking at older players, you need to keep in mind that there were many fewer awards that were available, which makes it misleading to compare trophy cases 50+ years apart. Had all of today's awards been available during Beliveau's career, he was probably would have won 4 or 5 more.
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JackSlater
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Jagr
Hull
Beliveau
Ovechkin
Richard
GAP
Lafleur
Dionne
The first four all have a strong case for top ten all time and I could be convinced to move them around. I'm solid on Richard as fifth and then Lafleur and then Dionne.
Hull
Beliveau
Ovechkin
Richard
GAP
Lafleur
Dionne
The first four all have a strong case for top ten all time and I could be convinced to move them around. I'm solid on Richard as fifth and then Lafleur and then Dionne.
TruePowerSlave
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TruePowerSlave
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That's the point. It's kinda hard to rank a group that most have not watched. It comes down to stat watching, how they fared versus peers etc. Not all eras are equal either, the game has changed considerably and all that jazz.
SmoggyTwinkles
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jigglysquishy
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DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
Dionne is definitely last, and I think Lafleur is second last. Lafleur has a very unusual career for an all-time great in that his peak is basically as long as his prime. A six year peak at a very high level is outstanding, but other than his best six seasons, there is almost no meat on the bone in his career if we're comparing him to all-timers.
SmoggyTwinkles
Go Leafs Go
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Agreed. I think Dionne is pretty clearly the "least great" out of these seven names. If we're talking strictly about regular season offensive production, he looks good. His career totals are excellent (700+ goals and 1,700+ points), but his career coincided almost perfectly with the NHL's highest scoring era. In terms of weaknesses? He was a fairly poor playoff performer - by far the weakest out of these seven players. And he wasn't very good defensively.
If you define the question in a narrow way (ie best six year peak, taking regular season and playoffs into account), Lafleur might actually be first on this list. He was probably the best player in the world between 1975 and 1980. But he had by far the fastest, steepest drop-off of any player on this list. He accomplished essentially nothing of significance (for a player of his stature) outside of that period. Every other player on this list was a star player for much longer. (Lafleur was a vastly better playoff performer than Dionne, so that puts him in 6th place, but his lack of longevity keeps him from climbing any higher).
I think the bottom two names on this list are pretty clear, then it gets tougher to decide.
JackSlater
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Bouboumaster
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tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
frisco
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Jagr > Ovy > Lafleur > Dionne
I'm not gonna bother ranking the rest, I never saw any of them play and trying to judge from Youtube clips doesn't do much. Out of respect to them I would just be basically guessing.
To me best and worst relies heavily on peak. If so:
1. Jagr
2. Hull
3. Ovechkin
4. Lafleur
5. Beliveau
6. Richard
7. Dionne
If it's "greatest", I would change it to:
1. Beliveau
2. Jagr
3. Ovechkin
4. Hull
5. Richard
6. Lafleur
7. Dionne
I feel very good about my 2nd list, but not at all about my fist list, for what it's worth. For single season peak/playoffs, Beliveau could very well be #1...also if you consider length of peak, Lafleur all the way up at #2 is also very plausible. So, depends how you define peak.
Bouboumaster
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