RANK! Better Career: Bourque vs Lidstrom vs Coffey vs Stevens

[Fugu]

... very true, unless your name is Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, Maurice Richard, Red Kelly, Gordie Howe at times, Bobby Hull, Bobby Orr, Guy Lafleur, Brad Park sporadically, Coffey & Bourque, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Ovechkin & Crosby along with Datsyuk & others when their really "on". Mission from Gawd. Nothing like a sensational Coast~Coaster huh? Generally that the Canadian game. What their known for. Individual effort. But its not limited to Canadians anymore obviously, be it a Bure' or whomever. Tactically lightning like that if you have the luxury of such talents, well, Mustangs gotta run free & wild. But yes, understood puck movement key & critical. Anatoli Tarasov, the Godfather of the Russian Game believed that if you pass the puck 3-4X's more than your opponents did youd come out on top & kept detailed statistics on his players passing & in scouting opponents. It was that dizzying array of passing, obviously with full puck possession that so flabbergasted & blew the minds of Team Canada in 72. Dryden, he melted under the onslaught playing stand-up, positioning himself to face a shot then bing, another pass, he scrambles, then another pass, another after that & the Russians are just shoveling it into an empty net.

That's not what I meant!

And the way the game is played today, you just can't do that very much, unless you are Datsyuk, but we're impressed because it's rare.

Simply put however, if you can have a high enough skill level, what coach would want the one-man show if he could speed up the play with the Soviet-inspired puck possession concept? The puck indeed moves faster than any one skater. That's the point.

 

[habsfanatics*]

1) Awfully sure of yourself for someone who thinks PK freaking Subban is better at controlling the game than Nicklas Lidstrom was. I mean, Subban does have his flashes of brilliance, but...

2) As to your second point, are you purposely making absurd statements to "get back at" people you feel are doing the same against Bourque? PK freaking Subban...

I mean, I voted for Bourque in this poll, but that statement of yours above is frankly insulting to everything Lidstrom accomplished.

PK freaking Subban is an elite puck possession defensemen, nothing absurd about that.

 

[ScaredStreit]

Bourque
Lidstrom
Coffey/Stevens

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

PK freaking Subban is an elite puck possession defensemen, nothing absurd about that.

Yeah, whatever, he's certainly not better than Nicklas Lidstrom at it.

 

[Big Phil]

If it's any consolation, I think Subban can learn a lot from Lidstrom and Bourque. But as I've said before Bourque was the "man" on his own team a lot more than Lidstrom and I personally believe he would have stood out more on those Red Wings team than Lidstrom. I mean, there was maybe 1993 when Oates had some Hart votes and Bourque didn't as the only season in Bourque's prime when you would say that Bourque wasn't the most important player on the Bruins. Even in 1994 it was back to normal. Bourque wins the Norris, gets the Hart votes even against his own teammates in Oates (112 points) and Neely (50 goals in 49 games).

 

[habsfanatics*]

Yeah, whatever, he's certainly not better than Nicklas Lidstrom at it.

I don't believe anyone was saying he was a better player than Lidstrom, but he's one of the very best at driving play to the other end of the ice, there's no doubt about it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't believe anyone was saying he was a better player than Lidstrom, but he's one of the very best at driving play to the other end of the ice, there's no doubt about it.

Read Rheissen's post again. He listed Subban as a player better than Lidstrom at controlling puck possession.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Read Rheissen's post again. He listed Subban as a player better than Lidstrom at controlling puck possession.

I have and I agree with basically everything he said in that post.

 

[Hobnobs]

Two habs fans saying Subban is better than Lidström. Im shocked!

 

[Rhiessan71]

Read Rheissen's post again. He listed Subban as a player better than Lidstrom at controlling puck possession.

Not exactly what I was saying though.
Remember, it was also stated that Lidstrom was "the driving engine" and "pushed the play". I mentioned that trying to create offense from the backend involves risk.

Show me where that was apparent, show me where Lidstrom's ES production was Elite?
Lidstrom's first 10 seasons of ES production: 0.33 ESPpG
Lidstrom's last 10 seasons of ES production: 0.32 ESPpG
Chara's ES production during Lidstrom's last 10 seasons: 0.29 ESPpG


Lidstrom played a very conservative game at even strength and rarely took risks. His TEAM possession play ended somewhere between his own blueline and the center ice line.

For someone to sit there and try to tell me that Lidstrom "pushed the play" and controlled the puck past his side of center is shocking to me and to even suggest that he did so anything close to what Bourque did is just laughable, sorry.

Is Subban a better player than Lidstrom? Of course not.
Is Subban a better individual puck possession player and has the ability to actually "push" the play at even strength more effectively than Lidstrom? I think so, yes.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Not exactly what I was saying though.
Remember, it was also stated that Lidstrom was "the driving engine" and "pushed the play". I mentioned that trying to create offense from the backend involves risk.

Show me where that was apparent, show me where Lidstrom's ES production was Elite?
Lidstrom's first 10 seasons of ES production: 0.33 ESPpG
Lidstrom's last 10 seasons of ES production: 0.32 ESPpG
Chara's ES production during Lidstrom's last 10 seasons: 0.29 ESPpG


Lidstrom played a very conservative game at even strength and rarely took risks. His TEAM possession play ended somewhere between his own blueline and the center ice line.

For someone to sit there and try to tell me that Lidstrom "pushed the play" and controlled the puck past his side of center is shocking to me and to even suggest that he did so anything close to what Bourque did is just laughable, sorry.

Is Subban a better player than Lidstrom? Of course not.
Is Subban a better individual puck possession player and has the ability to actually "push" the play at even strength more effectively than Lidstrom? I think so, yes.

Agreed.

 

[Hobnobs]

Not exactly what I was saying though.
Remember, it was also stated that Lidstrom was "the driving engine" and "pushed the play". I mentioned that trying to create offense from the backend involves risk.

Show me where that was apparent, show me where Lidstrom's ES production was Elite?
Lidstrom's first 10 seasons of ES production: 0.33 ESPpG
Lidstrom's last 10 seasons of ES production: 0.32 ESPpG
Chara's ES production during Lidstrom's last 10 seasons: 0.29 ESPpG


Lidstrom played a very conservative game at even strength and rarely took risks. His TEAM possession play ended somewhere between his own blueline and the center ice line.

For someone to sit there and try to tell me that Lidstrom "pushed the play" and controlled the puck past his side of center is shocking to me and to even suggest that he did so anything close to what Bourque did is just laughable, sorry.

Is Subban a better player than Lidstrom? Of course not.
Is Subban a better individual puck possession player and has the ability to actually "push" the play at even strength more effectively than Lidstrom? I think so, yes.

Subbans ESPPG last season was 0.36.... Wow... The season he won the norris it was 0.28...

 

[Fugu]

Not exactly what I was saying though.
Remember, it was also stated that Lidstrom was "the driving engine" and "pushed the play". I mentioned that trying to create offense from the backend involves risk.

Show me where that was apparent, show me where Lidstrom's ES production was Elite?
Lidstrom's first 10 seasons of ES production: 0.33 ESPpG
Lidstrom's last 10 seasons of ES production: 0.32 ESPpG
Chara's ES production during Lidstrom's last 10 seasons: 0.29 ESPpG


Lidstrom played a very conservative game at even strength and rarely took risks. His TEAM possession play ended somewhere between his own blueline and the center ice line.

For someone to sit there and try to tell me that Lidstrom "pushed the play" and controlled the puck past his side of center is shocking to me and to even suggest that he did so anything close to what Bourque did is just laughable, sorry.

Is Subban a better player than Lidstrom? Of course not.
Is Subban a better individual puck possession player and has the ability to actually "push" the play at even strength more effectively than Lidstrom? I think so, yes.

Oh boy. I'd like you to find any mention of your version of events in my posts.

Now, with that said, do you believe that Lidstrom was key in the transition?

And do you believe that team possession stops at the center line, and that the defender just basically ignores the offensive zone in a puck possession system? Or is he part of the group of players maintaining control and keeping pressure on the opposition? I know the Wings got the puck back to Lidstrom at the point whenever possible, either to set him up to shoot, or so he could re-establish the cycle.

Again--- team possession is superior to individual possession, which was eschewed by every Wings coach since Scotty first came to town.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Subbans ESPPG last season was 0.36.... Wow... The season he won the norris it was 0.28...

That's right, 0.36 not playing in a puck possession team system and playing on a team that is in the bottom tier for even strength play last season.

Shall we compare that to Karlsson? A player I personally feel plays a very similar possession game to Bourque's.
A lot of lateral passes, give and goes, circling and following up of passes.
09/10 0.27 (16 in 60)
10/11 0.31 (23 in 75)
11/12 0.62 (50 in 81) *Highest single total since Leetch or Bourque almost 20 years ago
12/13 0.53 (9 in 17)
13/14 0.52 (43 in 82)

In Lidstrom's entire 20 year career, he only had more than 30 ES points in a season 3 times and his highest single total was 37.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Oh boy. I'd like you to find any mention of your version of events in my posts.

Now, with that said, do you believe that Lidstrom was key in the transition?

And do you believe that team possession stops at the center line, and that the defender just basically ignores the offensive zone in a puck possession system? Or is he part of the group of players maintaining control and keeping pressure on the opposition? I know the Wings got the puck back to Lidstrom at the point whenever possible, either to set him up to shoot, or so he could re-establish the cycle.

Again--- team possession is superior to individual possession, which was eschewed by every Wings coach since Scotty first came to town.

Just show me how Lidstrom was the "Driving force" in Detroit?
Bourque drove the Bruins, it was easily apparent watching him and the stats easily back it up.
Same with Karlsson, you watch him do it nightly in Ottawa and once again, stats confirm it.

Show me how you can make that statement with Lidstrom, show me the money. The eye test doesn't show him pushing anything at even strength and the stats sure as hell don't show him pushing anything either.

Lidstrom was a very good PP QB and that is where most of his offense came from.
His highest season was 05/06 when there was a spike in PP opportunities and PP goals. He had 80 points and 50 were on the PP. A huge increase on his 31 PP per season career average.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just show me how Lidstrom was the "Driving force" in Detroit?
Bourque drove the Bruins, it was easily apparent watching him and the stats easily back it up.
Same with Karlsson, you watch him do it nightly in Ottawa and once again, stats confirm it.

Show me how you can make that statement with Lidstrom, show me the money. The eye test doesn't show him pushing anything at even strength and the stats sure as hell don't show him pushing anything either.

Lidstrom was a very good PP QB and that is where most of his offense came from.
His highest season was 05/06 when there was a spike in PP opportunities and PP goals. He had 80 points and 50 were on the PP. A huge increase on his 31 PP per season career average.

My eye test showed me Lidstrom was a a lot better at controlling the pace of the game on a consistent basis than PK Subban...

And yes, I realize that Subban at his best is a similar even strength point producer... the result of taking more risks than Lidstrom. Personally, I think Lidstrom's ability to control the pace of the game playing a more conservative style is more rare.

 

[Rhiessan71]

My eye test showed me Lidstrom was a a lot better at controlling the pace of the game on a consistent basis than PK Subban...

And yes, I realize that Subban at his best is a similar even strength point producer... the result of taking more risks than Lidstrom. Personally, I think Lidstrom's ability to control the pace of the game playing a more conservative style is more rare.

I didn't even say Subban was better at controlling a game. I said he was Individually, a better puck possession player and the main jist I was getting at was that Subban is more capable of "pushing" the play/offense.

Bottom line, one doesn't "push" the play/offense without taking some risk.
Lidstrom rarely ever took any risk so something obviously doesn't gel here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I didn't even say Subban was better at controlling a game. I said he was Individually, a better puck possession player and the main jist I was getting at was that Subban is more capable of "pushing" the play/offense.

Bottom line, one doesn't "push" the play/offense without taking some risk.
Lidstrom rarely ever took any risk so something obviously doesn't gel here.

So you showed that at his best, Subban was involved in approximately as much even strength offense as Lidstrom averaged, despite taking more risks.

And I believe you're the one who started talking about "pushing the play/offense." The rest of us were talking about overall puck possession and controlling the pace of the game. Seems you want to punish Lidstrom because he played a style that you don't like.

 

[Killion]

Bottom line, one doesn't "push" the play/offense without taking some risk.
Lidstrom rarely ever took any risk so something obviously doesn't gel here.

Indeed. The old saying you dont get something you want if you dont do something youve never done before.... There is however another school of thought on that, one thats risk averse, and thats the Russian & European approach to the game. More esoteric, intellectualized. Each player part of a 5 man unit, Cornerstones up~front in Fedorov & Yzerman, Anchor & Catalyst on the back-end in Detroit being Lidstrom. Far more subtle style of play as its risk averse & less dependent upon individual heroics, much more dependent upon group or "unit success". Puck possession.

 

[57special]

Did you people ever see Coffey play?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Did you people ever see Coffey play?

This is the history of hockey board. Most of us saw the end of Coffey's career, and many saw him in his prime.

Do you have a particular point to make?

 

[Rhiessan71]

So you showed that at his best, Subban was involved in approximately as much even strength offense as Lidstrom averaged, despite taking more risks.

Actually, I was just showing how despite playing for a team that doesn't play a possession game and that despite playing for a team that struggled to score at ES, Subban still managed to produce at around the same level as Lidstrom who played for a very good possession team and a team that excelled at even strength scoring.
Besides, I was mainly talking about Subban from a pushing the play perspective.

And I believe you're the one who started talking about "pushing the play/offense." The rest of us were talking about overall puck possession and controlling the pace of the game. Seems you want to punish Lidstrom because he played a style that you don't like.

Go back, I am not the one that made the claim that "everything ran through Lidstrom" and that "Lidstrom drove the engine".

 

[Fugu]

Actually, I was just showing how despite playing for a team that doesn't play a possession game and that despite playing for a team that struggled to score at ES, Subban still managed to produce at around the same level as Lidstrom who played for a very good possession team and a team that excelled at even strength scoring.
Besides, I was mainly talking about Subban from a pushing the play perspective.



Go back, I am not the one that made the claim that "everything ran through Lidstrom" and that "Lidstrom drove the engine".

You still seem to equate an individual's scoring rate with puck possession. Would you consider Brett Hull as someone who was great at individual puck possession?


Lidstrom was the engine. That he didn't score doesn't mean he wasn't dictating the tempo and key in transitions, or that he wasn't also a superb defender. You see, Rhiessan, in a team puck possession system, the goal is keep the puck moving to create scoring chances. Any of the five players on the ice can score, but they're not going to be an effective puck possession team unless all five are working together. That's the part you seem to be ignoring.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Indeed. The old saying you dont get something you want if you dont do something youve never done before.... There is however another school of thought on that, one thats risk averse, and thats the Russian & European approach to the game. More esoteric, intellectualized. Each player part of a 5 man unit, Cornerstones up~front in Fedorov & Yzerman, Anchor & Catalyst on the back-end in Detroit being Lidstrom. Far more subtle style of play as its risk averse & less dependent upon individual heroics, much more dependent upon group or "unit success". Puck possession.

For the most part I agree however two things...

First, there's a big difference between Detroit played as a team system and the possession game the " Russian Five" played.

Second, there's also a big difference between a player playing a possession game as a team system and a player that can play a possession game on his own.
Keeping the puck on your own stick as much as possible is a hell of a lot harder than just trying to keep the puck on one of five sticks.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You still seem to equate an individual's scoring rate with puck possession. Would you consider Brett Hull as someone who was great at individual puck possession?


Lidstrom was the engine. That he didn't score doesn't mean he wasn't dictating the tempo and key in transitions, or that he wasn't also a superb defender. You see, Rhiessan, in a team puck possession system, the goal is keep the puck moving to create scoring chances. Any of the five players on the ice can score, but they're not going to be an effective puck possession team unless all five are working together. That's the part you seem to be ignoring.

Actually...puck possession as a team is a defensive concept, not an offensive one.
The goal of being a puck possession is to control the puck more than the other team, thereby limiting their scoring chances and reducing their offensive zone time.
The mantra is if the puck is on our sticks its obviously not going to be on theirs.

Puck possession as an individual has more offensive aspects to it.