RANK! Better Career: Bourque vs Lidstrom vs Coffey vs Stevens

[The Panther]

I think an interesting player for comparison's sake in this matter is Dale Hawerchuk (Bourque's contemporary) from 1981 to 1994, vs. Bourque with Boston from 1979 to 1992.

I say this because there are actually some similarities -- both players were the linchpin of their teams, every year. Both players didn't have a lot of help. Yes, year by year there were some teammates who were stars (esp. in Bourque's case circa 1983 and the late-80s), but each player was the go-to guy who carried his team's load.

I have stated on here before that I personally devalue Dale Hawerchuck somewhat (don't get me wrong -- he was still great overall) because he never did anything in the playoffs, during his prime. Had Hawerchuk led his team to the conference finals a couple of times, or the Finals once, or something like that, I would revise my opinion. But the cold, hard fact is that in 13 consecutive peak seasons, Hawerchuk's team never made it past the first round or the second round. Not even once in 13 years! (He missed the playoffs once, so there were 12 tries.) However hard the competition was, I do think this counts as an 'error' on Hawerchuk's game-card. In short, he was the go-to guy, but he didn't take his team anywhere in 13 years.

Now, let's ignore the fact that Bourque won the Cup and just focus on 1979 to 1992 (as with Hawerchuk's 1981 to 1994). During Bourque's first thirteen seasons, would I label him a disappointment in the playoffs? NO WAY. In those thirteen seasons, Bourque's Bruins indeed failed to win a Cup (just like Hawerchuk) but his team also made it 5 times to the Conference Final and 2 times to the Stanley Cup Final.

In this kind of comparison, Lidstrom is not a fair comparison to Bourque because (a) Lidstrom played with better teammates consistently (maybe not in a few of Bourque's seasons, at most, but in the vast majority his teams weren't as stacked as Lidstrom's) and (b) Lidstrom was not the default go-to guy on his team! He was one of the go-to guys at times, and always a reliable leader / consistent performer, but he wasn't the bread-and-butter of the team year after year after year like Bourque and Hawerchuk.

I think (b) is really the difficulty of comparing these two players. And that's why I think a playoff-success comparison of, say, Hawerchuk and Bourque is more apt.

 

[Fugu]

In this kind of comparison, Lidstrom is not a fair comparison to Bourque because (a) Lidstrom played with better teammates consistently (maybe not in a few of Bourque's seasons, at most, but in the vast majority his teams weren't as stacked as Lidstrom's) and (b) Lidstrom was not the default go-to guy on his team! He was one of the go-to guys at times, and always a reliable leader / consistent performer, but he wasn't the bread-and-butter of the team year after year after year like Bourque and Hawerchuk.

I think (b) is really the difficulty of comparing these two players. And that's why I think a playoff-success comparison of, say, Hawerchuk and Bourque is more apt.

Indeed he was. The fact that he was the highest paid Red Wing starting in 1999, when Yzerman was also re-signed, should once and for all dispel this notion that the Wings felt he was any kind of passenger. This is a team that believed no one got paid more than the captain, although at that time, it became that no one got paid more than Lidstrom. Fedorov's salary is a bit of an anomaly, thanks to the poison pill offer sheet from Carolina.

Yzerman:
[SIZE=-1]1999-00[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $6,000,000 [/SIZE] $1,200,000 25% [SIZE=-1]
2000-01[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,000,000 [/SIZE] $2,000,000 33%
[SIZE=-1]2001-02[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,500,000 [/SIZE] $(500,000) -6%
[SIZE=-1]2002-03[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,500,000 [/SIZE] $1,000,000 13%
[SIZE=-1]2003-04[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $5,849,823 [/SIZE] $(2,650,177) -31%

Lidstrom:
[SIZE=-1]1999-00[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $6,000,000 [/SIZE] $3,950,000 193%
[SIZE=-1]2000-01[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,250,000 [/SIZE] $1,250,000 21% [SIZE=-1]
2001-02[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,500,000 [/SIZE] $1,250,000 17%
[SIZE=-1]2002-03[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $10,500,000 [/SIZE] $2,000,000 24%
[SIZE=-1]2003-04[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $10,000,000 [/SIZE] $(500,000) -5%
Lockout
[SIZE=-1]2005-06[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE] $(2,400,000) -24% <--- CBA clawback, was signed to $10MM/yr
[SIZE=-1]2006-07[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2007-08[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE]


Lidstrom was THE cornerstone player of those teams. Just ask the Wings braintrust.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The fact that he was the highest paid Red Wing starting in 1999, when Yzerman was also re-signed, should once and for all dispel this notion that the Wings felt he was any kind of passenger.

Who said "passenger"? No one's saying he's a passenger just because the Red Wings had the best depth in the league. Sometimes he rowed the hardest, but there were usually six or seven other oars in the water.

 

[The Panther]

Indeed he was. The fact that he was the highest paid Red Wing starting in 1999, when Yzerman was also re-signed, should once and for all dispel this notion that the Wings felt he was any kind of passenger. This is a team that believed no one got paid more than the captain, although at that time, it became that no one got paid more than Lidstrom. Fedorov's salary is a bit of an anomaly, thanks to the poison pill offer sheet from Carolina.

Yzerman:
[SIZE=-1]1999-00[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $6,000,000 [/SIZE] $1,200,000 25% [SIZE=-1]
2000-01[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,000,000 [/SIZE] $2,000,000 33%
[SIZE=-1]2001-02[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,500,000 [/SIZE] $(500,000) -6%
[SIZE=-1]2002-03[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,500,000 [/SIZE] $1,000,000 13%
[SIZE=-1]2003-04[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $5,849,823 [/SIZE] $(2,650,177) -31%

Lidstrom:
[SIZE=-1]1999-00[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $6,000,000 [/SIZE] $3,950,000 193%
[SIZE=-1]2000-01[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,250,000 [/SIZE] $1,250,000 21% [SIZE=-1]
2001-02[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,500,000 [/SIZE] $1,250,000 17%
[SIZE=-1]2002-03[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $10,500,000 [/SIZE] $2,000,000 24%
[SIZE=-1]2003-04[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $10,000,000 [/SIZE] $(500,000) -5%
Lockout
[SIZE=-1]2005-06[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE] $(2,400,000) -24% <--- CBA clawback, was signed to $10MM/yr
[SIZE=-1]2006-07[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2007-08[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE]


Lidstrom was THE cornerstone player of those teams. Just ask the Wings braintrust.

Nothing you said here (except the final two sentences) has anything remotely to do with what I posted.

 

[Fugu]

Who said "passenger"? No one's saying he's a passenger just because the Red Wings had the best depth in the league. Sometimes he rowed the hardest, but there were usually six or seven other oars in the water.

This is where the mythology takes over. The Wings did not have THE best depth, not that entire run, no way, and had some interesting contenders who indeed challenged them-- like Colorado or NJ. You guys make it sound like it was guaranteed, or some cake walk. That 2002 may have been their best effort at buying their way to a Cup as well, and it certainly wasn't guaranteed that they'd get past the Avalanche. In fact, it seemed like they wouldn't until Patty pulled the Statue of Liberty play.


Were the Wings one of the best for nearly 20 years, with several different coaches, and two virtually distinct rosters? Yes.

I contend that the reason was Lidstrom. I think many Wings fans who actually watched that team through those years would agree. Some of us are aware how the team's management apportioned value and who was considered the cornerstone. I keep telling you folks that was Lidstrom but you keep coming up with your own script, and perhaps overvaluing the Wings roster and depth from the distance of time, as in retrospect we know what was achieved. At the time, it didn't seem quite as certain nor guaranteed as you guys paint it out to be here. In fact, they were too old to do anything from about 2000 and well into 2009, according to the casual observers.

 

[Fugu]

Nothing you said here (except the final two sentences) has anything remotely to do with what I posted.

You said he wasn't their Go To guy. I said he was the cornerstone of those teams.

Where do we differ?

 

[BraveCanadian]

This is where the mythology takes over. The Wings did not have THE best depth, not that entire run, no way, and had some interesting contenders who indeed challenged them-- like Colorado or NJ. You guys make it sound like it was guaranteed, or some cake walk. That 2002 may have been their best effort at buying their way to a Cup as well, and it certainly wasn't guaranteed that they'd get past the Avalanche. In fact, it seemed like they wouldn't until Patty pulled the Statue of Liberty play.


Were the Wings one of the best for nearly 20 years, with several different coaches, and two virtually distinct rosters? Yes.

I contend that the reason was Lidstrom. I think many Wings fans who actually watched that team through those years would agree. Some of us are aware how the team's management apportioned value and who was considered the cornerstone. I keep telling you folks that was Lidstrom but you keep coming up with your own script, and perhaps overvaluing the Wings roster and depth from the distance of time, as in retrospect we know what was achieved. At the time, it didn't seem quite as certain nor guaranteed as you guys paint it out to be here. In fact, they were too old to do anything from about 2000 and well into 2009, according to the casual observers.

Put me down as someone who also believes that Lidstrom was the big common denominator during and after Detroit established themselves as a contender.

Also, I know people like to play up 2002 like it was an allstar team and in a way it was.. but people do have to keep in mind that Detroit brought in a LOT of players with great pedigrees but not necessarily players in the primes. Or players who hadn't yet hit their primes. Hull wasn't an 86 goal scoring Hull any longer. Yzerman was playing on one leg. Datsyuk was nothing in the playoffs etc.

However, they targeted guys that would buy into the system and players with the history that any one of them could be the difference on any given night even if it wasn't as often as it was in their best years.

 

[Killion]

Who said "passenger"? No one's saying he's a passenger just because the Red Wings had the best depth in the league. Sometimes he rowed the hardest, but there were usually six or seven other oars in the water.

Yes, truly a team effort, he had a great supporting cast ever revolving however the Wings, Bowman et al, they built that team around a core of 4-6 players, preeminent amongst them Lidstrom, Yzerman & Fedorov. The nucleus to all that followed. Lidstrom the Strokeman setting the pace from the stern, the blue-line. As important to those clubs successes as was Orr with the Bruins though on a more esoteric level in terms of integrated team play. A lot more sophisticated and dynamic supporting cast on many levels than Orr had the luxury of playing with. Both the axis upon which everything evolved.

 

[quoipourquoi]

This is where the mythology takes over. The Wings did not have THE best depth, not that entire run, no way, and had some interesting contenders who indeed challenged them-- like Colorado or NJ. You guys make it sound like it was guaranteed, or some cake walk. That 2002 may have been their best effort at buying their way to a Cup as well, and it certainly wasn't guaranteed that they'd get past the Avalanche. In fact, it seemed like they wouldn't until Patty pulled the Statue of Liberty play.

Wait, what? You don't think the Red Wings had noticeably better depth than the Avalanche? That's not mythology. The Red Wings outshot the Avalanche in all five of their series in that era, by a cumulative total of 976-743 (33-25 per game).

And that was the Avalanche!

Absolutely, the Red Wings had the best depth.

 

[Fugu]

Wait, what? You don't think the Red Wings had noticeably better depth than the Avalanche? That's not mythology. The Red Wings outshot the Avalanche in all five of their series in that era, by a cumulative total of 976-743 (33-25 per game).

And that was the Avalanche!

Absolutely, the Red Wings had the best depth.

No, I don't think the Avalanche had noticeably less depth. You had Sakic-Forsberg against Fedorov-Yzerman. Roy in net was enough of a difference maker to make them a Cup winner, so you swap Roy with Lidstrom as two of the best ever at their positions, and how teams built from the back end. Holland said he either sunk his money into a franchise/elite D or a franchise/elite goaltender. The Wings never really had the latter save for Hasek in 2002, and then his well past anything close to prime stint in 2008 during the regular season.

The Avs had Foote for their first Cup run, then added Bourque and Blake for the next run, and with Foote-Blake for their third Cup.

They had to face Detroit five of their seven playoff runs by 2002-- and most notable is that the Wings caught up to the Avs' three Cup wins in 2002. The other team that sometimes squelched these two teams' hopes is NJD. I don't think you get to this point with poor depth.

We could start breaking it down a player at a time, subjectively ranking them, but I know what I watched all those years and which team put the greatest scare into any Wings' hopes of a championship. Usually, it was Colorado and for good reason. They were their best match.

 

[plusandminus]

The Avs had Foote for their first Cup run, then added Bourque and Blake for the next run, and with Foote-Blake for their third Cup.

Don't forget Ozolinsh, who was great (and who I personally thought was better than Foote).

 

[Rhiessan71]

No, I don't think the Avalanche had noticeably less depth. You had Sakic-Forsberg against Fedorov-Yzerman. Roy in net was enough of a difference maker to make them a Cup winner, so you swap Roy with Lidstrom as two of the best ever at their positions, and how teams built from the back end. Holland said he either sunk his money into a franchise/elite D or a franchise/elite goaltender. The Wings never really had the latter save for Hasek in 2002, and then his well past anything close to prime stint in 2008 during the regular season.

The Avs had Foote for their first Cup run, then added Bourque and Blake for the next run, and with Foote-Blake for their Cup.

They had to face Detroit five of their seven playoff runs by 2002-- and most notable is that the Wings caught up to the Avs' three Cup wins in 2002. The other team that sometimes squelched these two teams' hopes is NJD. I don't think you get to this point with poor depth.

We could start breaking it down a player at a time, subjectively ranking them, but I know what I watched all those years and which team put the greatest scare into any Wings' hopes of a championship. Usually, it was Colorado and for good reason. They were their best match.

Heh, how about instead of just naming a few players and then using that to make your case that Detroit didn't have a huge advantage in depth, you list the rosters of each team from various Cup winning, Cup finalists and Conf finalist teams over the years and compare them.

The '96 Avs are the closest team to what the wings had almost every season and even they fall short once you get to Detroit's "Grind" 4th line.
Defense...forget about it.
Lidstrom/Murphy
Konstantinov/Fetisov
Ward/Rouse


I'm actually getting a little sick of all this downplaying of the Wing's teams around here during Lidstrom's time there.
I was there, I lived through it, watched it happen every year.
Best drafting of lower rounds ever, they couldn't miss with even a 7th round pick. Every player seemed to find a spot and be useful and if they couldn't fill a hole with their drafting, they ***** and pillaged the poor teams.

So please get out of here with this revisionist crap that Detroit "didn't have that much depth because that's all it is, crap.

You want to make the statement that a team like the Av's matched Detroit's depth, then prove it and it better entail more than just "oh hey Sakic/Forsberg = Yzerman/Fedorov, Lidstrom = Foote" and then call it a day.

 

[Fugu]

Heh, how about instead of just naming a few players and then using that to make your case that Detroit didn't have a huge advantage in depth, you list the rosters of each team from various Cup winning, Cup finalists and Conf finalist teams over the years and compare them.

The '96 Avs are the closest team to what the wings had almost every season and even they fall short once you get to Detroit's "Grind" 4th line.
Defense...forget about it.
Lidstrom/Murphy
Konstantinov/Fetisov
Ward/Rouse

Yes, these two were around for the majority of Lidstrom's career and all four Cups, right?

I'm actually getting a little sick of all this downplaying of the Wing's teams around here during Lidstrom's time there.
I was there, I lived through it, watched it happen every year.
Best drafting of lower rounds ever, they couldn't miss with even a 7th round pick. Every player seemed to find a spot and be useful and if they couldn't fill a hole with their drafting, they ***** and pillaged the poor teams.

Now you're just making **** up. They were built through the draft and development, and the majority of players they brought in to improve or plug holes was through trades. Take the case of Shanahan. They traded a 3rd overall pick to get Brendan.

1996-Oct-09 Traded from Hartford Whalers with Brian Glynn to Detroit Red Wings for Keith Primeau, Paul Coffey and round 1 pick in the 1997 draft (Nikos Tselios)
​

How did they end up with Coffey:

• 1993-Jan-29 Traded from Los Angeles Kings with Sylvain Couturier and Jim Hiller to Detroit Red Wings for Gary Shuchuk, Marc Potvin and Jimmy Carson

And a first round pick!


People like to forget that, or what did they give up for Hasek? A bag of pucks or a top six forward who had been part of the Russian Five and pretty much synonymous for the Wings's style of play-- and change?

2001-Jul-01 Traded from Buffalo Sabres to Detroit Red Wings for Vyacheslav Kozlov, round 1 pick in the 2002 draft and conditional pick in the 2003 draft
​

Another first round pick on top of a home-developed roster player.

Chris Chelios:

1999-Mar-23 Traded from Chicago Blackhawks to Detroit Red Wings for Anders Eriksson, round 1 pick in the 1999 draft (Steve McCarthy) and round 1 pick in the 2001 draft
​

Marty Lapointe was grossly overpaid by Boston so Jacobs could get back at Ilitch. Karmanos threw that incredible poison pill offer sheet at Fedorov, which is still the single largest payment ever made in the NHL. They lost Konstantinov to a tragic accident after their first Cup. They lost Jiri Fischer just as the latter was about to embark on a career that would probably have seen him as a top two defenseman on that team.


Who did get via free agency that mattered or made a difference? Hull. Robitaille never did much, so that was just a waste of money. Cujo, but he kind of flopped. Rafalski ultimately, to replace Schneider, ahead of the 2008 Cup run.

Who did they pillage, Rhiessan?

So please get out of here with this revisionist crap that Detroit "didn't have that much depth because that's all it is, crap.

I said that Colorado was the best matched team against them during their peak years-- which was before Lidstrom 2.0 and the 2008 Cup and almost 2009 Cup. I never said they lacked depth, but I don't want people to forget due to the mists of time blurring their vision the actual struggles the team had, plus the fact that they gave up real assets to get their better players. Nevertheless, their backbone had always been built through their own draft and development.

You want to make the statement that a team like the Av's matched Detroit's depth, then prove it and it better entail more than just "oh hey Sakic/Forsberg = Yzerman/Fedorov, Lidstrom = Foote" and then call it a day.

Why would I waste my time? You claim to have been there and watched it all, but you're downplaying of what the Sakic-Forsberg team accomplished (TWO damn Cups, in case you're having trouble counting 'em) -- as if this was somehow easy to do and chopped liver to the Wings' THREE Cups of the same era? You must be joking.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Yes, these two were around for the majority of Lidstrom's career and all four Cups, right?

Chelios, Rafalski, Hatcher, Duchense, Kromwall, Schneider. Any of those names ring a bell?

Now you're just making **** up. They were built through the draft and development, and the majority of players they brought in to improve or plug holes was through trades. Take the case of Shanahan. They traded a 3rd overall pick to get Brendan.

1996-Oct-09 Traded from Hartford Whalers with Brian Glynn to Detroit Red Wings for Keith Primeau, Paul Coffey and round 1 pick in the 1997 draft (Nikos Tselios)
​

How did they end up with Coffey:

• 1993-Jan-29 Traded from Los Angeles Kings with Sylvain Couturier and Jim Hiller to Detroit Red Wings for Gary Shuchuk, Marc Potvin and Jimmy Carson

And a first round pick!


People like to forget that, or what did they give up for Hasek? A bag of pucks or a top six forward who had been part of the Russian Five and pretty much synonymous for the Wings's style of play-- and change?

2001-Jul-01 Traded from Buffalo Sabres to Detroit Red Wings for Vyacheslav Kozlov, round 1 pick in the 2002 draft and conditional pick in the 2003 draft
​

Another first round pick on top of a home-developed roster player.

Chris Chelios:

1999-Mar-23 Traded from Chicago Blackhawks to Detroit Red Wings for Anders Eriksson, round 1 pick in the 1999 draft (Steve McCarthy) and round 1 pick in the 2001 draft
​

Marty Lapointe was grossly overpaid by Boston so Jacobs could get back at Ilitch. Karmanos threw that incredible poison pill offer sheet at Fedorov, which is still the single largest payment ever made in the NHL. They lost Konstantinov to a tragic accident after their first Cup. They lost Jiri Fischer just as the latter was about to embark on a career that would probably have seen him as a top two defenseman on that team.


Who did get via free agency that mattered or made a difference? Hull. Robitaille never did much, so that was just a waste of money. Cujo, but he kind of flopped. Rafalski ultimately, to replace Schneider, ahead of the 2008 Cup run.

Who did they pillage, Rhiessan?

How many of their trades were at the deadline, scoping up soon to be FA's from cash starved teams?
Seriously, Hull and lucky Luc did nothing? You mean other than winning a Cup right
Remind me again which team, pre-cap, averaged easily the highest payroll through the mid 90's till the lockout?

I said that Colorado was the best matched team against them during their peak years-- which was before Lidstrom 2.0 and the 2008 Cup and almost 2009 Cup. I never said they lacked depth, but I don't want people to forget due to the mists of time blurring their vision the actual struggles the team had, plus the fact that they gave up real assets to get their better players. Nevertheless, their backbone had always been built through their own draft and development.

What about 2007? 124 freakin point Lidstrom led team that was upset bigtime in just 6 games in the first round by the Pronger led Oilers?

Why would I waste my time? You claim to have been there and watched it all, but you're downplaying of what the Sakic-Forsberg team accomplished (THREE damn Cups, in case you're having trouble counting 'em) -- as if this was somehow easy to do and chopped liver to the Wings' THREE Cups of the same era? You must be joking.

Apparently I'm not the one having trouble "counting 'em" as it was only TWO DAMNED Cups.

 

[Fugu]

Chelios, Rafalski, Hatcher, Duchense, Kromwall, Schneider. Any of those names ring a bell?

Kronwall is a Wings draft/development product. I mentioned Chelios, Schneider and Rafalski, but for the record, Schneider was acquired in a trade with LA:

2003-Mar-11 Traded from Los Angeles Kings to Detroit Red Wings for Maxim Kuznetsov, Sean Avery, round 1 pick in the 2003 draft (Jeff Tambellini) and round 2 pick in the 2004 draft
​

He, of course, went on to have the best career years playing alongside Lids.

Rafalski was signed as a 34 yr old UFA, who also went on to put up 3 of his best ever years after playing alongside Lids...

Hatcher was a bust. Didn't fit their system whatsoever, too slow, too stupid. He was bought out after the lockout ended.

How many of their trades were at the deadline, scoping up soon to be FA's from cash starved teams?

I mentioned the key trades. Were those teams cash-starved and plundered, given the names they got back and top draft picks?

Really? Which ones?

Seriously, Hull and lucky Luc did nothing? You mean other than winning a Cup right

Luc did nothing. He was totally expendable. Brett Hull added strong scoring depth, being paired ultimately with a rookie named Datsyuk for his best years with the Wings.

I can't believe you're going to try to give Luc and Hull credit for that 2002 Cup, btw.

Remind me again which team, pre-cap, averaged easily the highest payroll through the mid 90's till the lockout?

The Wings did not lead the offer sheet fiasco, and iirc, never extended a single offer sheet to any player. Ever.

Avg team payrolls, pre-lockout:

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm

The majority of the Wings money was going to keep their homegrown talent. They pillaged no one, and the best players acquired, as I demonstrated above, were in trades where real talent and picks went in the opposite direction.

Paying an overrated guy like Lidstrom $10 MM though is what really pushed them over the average. They should have cut that imposter loose.

Furthermore, given that the UFA age was 31 pre-lockout, sure the Wings had one of the highest payrolls, but it was for well beyond prime players, for the most part-- aside from Lidstrom.

They plundered no one. You're really off on that one.

What about 2007? 124 freakin point Lidstrom led team that was upset bigtime in just 6 games in the first round by the Pronger led Oilers?

What about it? They can't win every year, and they had to cut a bunch of vets to get under a $39 MM cap-- from about $80 MM in commitments. They shouldn't even have been there! When they did win, according to you, it was depth and that it was the Wings. When they didn't win the Cup, it was Lidstrom's fault?

Had they gotten past the Ducks the following year (when Schneider and Kronwall were both injured), they probably would have beaten Ottawa. Kronwall was a mere kid at this point, btw. Frickin' Andreas Lilja was playing top four min on D! They made it to the Cup finals the next two seasons, losing in Game 7 on the second of the two. Datsyuk missed the first four games (maybe it was five), and Lids was lucky to still have his testicles, playing with those being surgically repaired the week before....barely even the requisite time between series as the NHL pushed it by ONE WEEK at the last minute... and it still took the Pens seven games. Guess who almost scored the tying goal, btw?

Apparently I'm not the one having trouble "counting 'em" as it was only TWO DAMNED Cups.

Yes, I guess I tried to count that 2002 one twice. Always get NJD and these guys confused.


Still... it's still nothing to sneeze at...given the company.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Kronwall is a Wings draft/development product. I mentioned Chelios, Schneider and Rafalski, but for the record, Schneider was acquired in a trade with LA:

2003-Mar-11 Traded from Los Angeles Kings to Detroit Red Wings for Maxim Kuznetsov, Sean Avery, round 1 pick in the 2003 draft (Jeff Tambellini) and round 2 pick in the 2004 draft
​

He, of course, went on to have the best career years playing alongside Lids.

Rafalski was signed as a 34 yr old UFA, who also went on to put up 3 of his best ever years after playing alongside Lids...

Hatcher was a bust. Didn't fit their system whatsoever, too slow, too stupid. He was bought out after the lockout ended.

Hatcher was fine pre-LO, it was only after the new obstruction rules came out that he became "useless". He was let go because of the salary cuts that were needed to conform with the new Cap system.

I mentioned the key trades. Were those teams cash-starved and plundered, given the names they got back and top draft picks?

Really? Which ones?

You realise that every trade you just mentioned that happened in March was a deadline or close to the deadline deal and generally involved a soon to be FA that the team trading said player couldn't afford to re-sign.

Almost every year without pause, the Wings were featured prominently in the deadline day coverage adding millions of dollars in payroll.

Luc did nothing. He was totally expendable. Brett Hull added strong scoring depth, being paired ultimately with a rookie named Datsyuk for his best years with the Wings.

I can't believe you're going to try to give Luc and Hull credit for that 2002 Cup, btw.

They added the depth they were lacking the year before and when adding a 30 goal scorer is considered "expendable", that could only truly be said by a Wings fan.
That you even said that only proves my point about depth heh

The Wings did not lead the offer sheet fiasco, and iirc, never extended a single offer sheet to any player. Ever.

Avg team payrolls, pre-lockout:

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm

The majority of the Wings money was going to keep their homegrown talent. They pillaged no one, and the best players acquired, as I demonstrated above, were in trades where real talent and picks went in the opposite direction.

Paying an overrated guy like Lidstrom $10 MM though is what really pushed them over the average. They should have cut that imposter loose.

Furthermore, given that the UFA age was 31 pre-lockout, sure the Wings had one of the highest payrolls, but it was for well beyond prime players, for the most part-- aside from Lidstrom.

They plundered no one. You're really off on that one.

How many deals did the Wings make that they didn't increase their payroll while the team they traded with didn't reduce payroll?

What about it? They can't win every year, and they had to cut a bunch of vets to get under a $39 MM cap-- from about $80 MM in commitments. They shouldn't even have been there! When they did win, according to you, it was depth and that it was the Wings. When they didn't win the Cup, it was Lidstrom's fault?

Had they gotten past the Ducks the following year (when Schneider and Kronwall were both injured), they probably would have beaten Ottawa. Kronwall was a mere kid at this point, btw. Frickin' Andreas Lilja was playing top four min on D! They made it to the Cup finals the next two seasons, losing in Game 7 on the second of the two. Datsyuk missed the first four games (maybe it was five), and Lids was lucky to still have his testicles, playing with those being surgically repaired the week before....barely even the requisite time between series as the NHL pushed it by ONE WEEK at the last minute... and it still took the Pens seven games. Guess who almost scored the tying goal, btw?

Hey, I wasn't the one that was giving Lidstrom the most credit in their Cup wins. That was you earlier and if you are going to hand out the lions share of credit to him when they won, then he must also receive the lions share of fault when they lose and especially when they lose to a team a full 29 points back in the standings.

Personally, I wouldn't do either as I don't believe he was entitled to the lions share period.
There was no Wings Cup win I watched where Lidstrom was the biggest reason they won. It was shared among many. Chelios could have easily won the Smythe over Lidstrom in '02 and neither of them win it if Yzerman's knees hold out for one more round.

Yes, I guess I tried to count that 2002 one twice. Always get NJD and these guys confused.


Still... it's still nothing to sneeze at...given the company.

Still, the only reason the Av's were even in the conversation with the Wings was Roy period. He was the evening factor that countered Detroit's superior depth.

 

[Sentinel]

I just rewatched the famous Wings-Avs game from 3/26/97 ("Blood on Ice"). Great game. Kamensky was on fire! Oddly enough, it was the Avs depth players that did more damage to us than their stars (except Kamensky): Young, Levebre, Deadmarsh, Yelle, etc.

On the Wings side, the players who had an amazing game were Fedorov (he usually delivered when it mattered)... on defense, McCarty, and Larionov. Fedorov was paired with Murphy, and they looked good together. Mickey Redmond kept saying "Keep him there, Scotty, he likes it." As we now know, "he" didn't like "it" at all, but did what coach told him. His stats took a big hit because of Bowman's system, but they got the Cups. Larionov btw was our best center in that game, better than Yzerman. The other two centers were Draper and Knuble (in his first NHL game, on a bizarre line with Kozlov and Holmstrom) and they didn't really impress.

Two players that had a terrible game were Vernon and Konstantinov. Konstantinov made two brutal plays that lead to the Avs goals and several more that didn't but could've. Guess who he was paired up with? Lidstrom. In fact, Lidstrom's +/- must have taken a hit from that. Vernon let in 1 bad and 2 horrible goals, but he did dance with Roy. Epic! All an all, that was the night when the Wings turned the table. Specifically the third period, when they came back from 3-5 deficit and then won in OT. Until the third period Roy looked impenetrable, but then Lapointe and Shanahan scored, and the Wings went on to forge their quasi-dynasty.

 

[Fugu]

Hatcher was fine pre-LO, it was only after the new obstruction rules came out that he became "useless". He was let go because of the salary cuts that were needed to conform with the new Cap system.

Nah, I'm not just arguing this to argue. He really didn't fit the Wings system. They were still very much a puck possession team then, that relied on a very mobile defense. He was too slow and prone to bone-headed plays. The new rules came online after the lockout so the same time the buyouts were happening.

He didn't add a thing to the Wings, and definitely nothing that they didn't easily replace with the likes of Andreas Lilja...

You realise that every trade you just mentioned that happened in March was a deadline or close to the deadline deal and generally involved a soon to be FA that the team trading said player couldn't afford to re-sign.

Almost every year without pause, the Wings were featured prominently in the deadline day coverage adding millions of dollars in payroll.

Sure, but do you find it significant that Primeau went in the trade for Shanny, or Kozlov in the Hasek deal? They could afford to take on extra salary, but they also targeted players whom they would try to keep. They weren't into rentals per se, certainly not if they gave up roster players and picks. It just goes against Holland's modus operandi. Even after the lockouts, when they brought in guys like Brad Stuart, they had every intention of re-signing them.

But no one was plundered. The teams with whom they did business got a lot back, as they already were going to lose the free agent, possibly for a variety of reasons. Hasek and Chelios, for example, weren't pricing themselves out of those markets. There was far more to it.

They added the depth they were lacking the year before and when adding a 30 goal scorer is considered "expendable", that could only truly be said by a Wings fan.
That you even said that only proves my point about depth heh

You mean Robitaille? He actually made no difference on that team. He has a great reputation and career, but he really was insignificant on the 2002 team. He was one of those guys who never really found his groove there.

Hull, on the other hand, was a great fit for the PP and on the second line. His play deteriorated over the next couple of years because he didn't really like to backcheck or play two-way, something most Wings coaches demanded of their forwards.

How many deals did the Wings make that they didn't increase their payroll while the team they traded with didn't reduce payroll?

You see the list of major deals. Look at the names. These teams were not plundered.

Hey, I wasn't the one that was giving Lidstrom the most credit in their Cup wins. That was you earlier and if you are going to hand out the lions share of credit to him when they won, then he must also receive the lions share of fault when they lose and especially when they lose to a team a full 29 points back in the standings.

As you give Bourque the blame for the Bruins losses?

Personally, I wouldn't do either as I don't believe he was entitled to the lions share period.
There was no Wings Cup win I watched where Lidstrom was the biggest reason they won. It was shared among many. Chelios could have easily won the Smythe over Lidstrom in '02 and neither of them win it if Yzerman's knees hold out for one more round.

Well, here we're just going to disagree. I rarely miss a Wings game. Ever. And I've been watching hockey longer than you have, not that that means your opinion isn't as valid. I know he was the glue, and I'm pretty sure that the guys who built these rosters also give him credit. I don't know what else to tell you.

Still, the only reason the Av's were even in the conversation with the Wings was Roy period. He was the evening factor that countered Detroit's superior depth.

Roy was to Colorado what Lids was to Detroit. I believe they were very well matched up front, and what Colorado lacked in elite defender depth, they made up in Roy since the Wings never really had that franchise goalie. Their four Cups were on the backs of Vernon, Osgood, Hasek and a much older Osgood much later on. Only one name is in the caliber of Roy.

 

[The Panther]

You mean Robitaille? He actually made no difference on that team. He has a great reputation and career, but he really was insignificant on the 2002 team.

That's just wrong, and disingenuous to Robitaille. When Robitaille signed with Detroit, he knew what he was doing -- signing-up to be a 2nd-line kind of winger, on a 4-line rotation team, for the first time in his life. He had never done that before, and he wanted to do it -- i.e., sacrifice ice-time and stats -- for a chance at the Cup.

The previous season (2000-01) with L.A., Robitaille scored 37 goals in 18:42 ice-time per game. With the Wings in 2001-02, he scored 30 goals in 14:51 ice-time per game. The goals-per-minute ratio (if we must get all technical) is virtually identical.

I don't know about you, but I would say scoring 30 goals (at age 35) with 14 or 15 minutes' ice-time per game, at the height of the dead-puck era, is rather impressive.

 

[Hobnobs]

That's just wrong, and disingenuous to Robitaille. When Robitaille signed with Detroit, he knew what he was doing -- signing-up to be a 2nd-line kind of winger, on a 4-line rotation team, for the first time in his life. He had never done that before, and he wanted to do it -- i.e., sacrifice ice-time and stats -- for a chance at the Cup.

The previous season (2000-01) with L.A., Robitaille scored 37 goals in 18:42 ice-time per game. With the Wings in 2001-02, he scored 30 goals in 14:51 ice-time per game. The goals-per-minute ratio (if we must get all technical) is virtually identical.

I don't know about you, but I would say scoring 30 goals (at age 35) with 14 or 15 minutes' ice-time per game, at the height of the dead-puck era, is rather impressive.

Agreed. Dont know what Fugu is on about here.

 

[67 others]

Indeed he was. The fact that he was the highest paid Red Wing starting in 1999, when Yzerman was also re-signed, should once and for all dispel this notion that the Wings felt he was any kind of passenger. This is a team that believed no one got paid more than the captain, although at that time, it became that no one got paid more than Lidstrom. Fedorov's salary is a bit of an anomaly, thanks to the poison pill offer sheet from Carolina.

Yzerman:
[SIZE=-1]1999-00[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $6,000,000 [/SIZE] $1,200,000 25% [SIZE=-1]
2000-01[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,000,000 [/SIZE] $2,000,000 33%
[SIZE=-1]2001-02[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,500,000 [/SIZE] $(500,000) -6%
[SIZE=-1]2002-03[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,500,000 [/SIZE] $1,000,000 13%
[SIZE=-1]2003-04[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $5,849,823 [/SIZE] $(2,650,177) -31%

Lidstrom:
[SIZE=-1]1999-00[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $6,000,000 [/SIZE] $3,950,000 193%
[SIZE=-1]2000-01[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,250,000 [/SIZE] $1,250,000 21% [SIZE=-1]
2001-02[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $8,500,000 [/SIZE] $1,250,000 17%
[SIZE=-1]2002-03[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $10,500,000 [/SIZE] $2,000,000 24%
[SIZE=-1]2003-04[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $10,000,000 [/SIZE] $(500,000) -5%
Lockout
[SIZE=-1]2005-06[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE] $(2,400,000) -24% <--- CBA clawback, was signed to $10MM/yr
[SIZE=-1]2006-07[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2007-08[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1] $7,600,000 [/SIZE]


Lidstrom was THE cornerstone player of those teams. Just ask the Wings braintrust.

Yzerman was entering the end phase years of his career, having played in the league since 83-84. Lidstrom was in or entering his prime.
Highly subjective.

The average team salary was around 46 million when the salary cap lockout happened. The wings had a Salary of 77+ million because they could trade for and sign expensive hall of fame veterans to boost their depth.

Had Selke Candidate centers on at least 2 of 4 of their lines, sometimes 3. No, they were not the only stacked team at the time, but they were usually the most stacked compared to the rest of the teams.

 

[Hobnobs]

Yzerman was entering the end phase years of his career, having played in the league since 83-84. Lidstrom was in or entering his prime.
Highly subjective.

The average team salary was around 46 million when the salary cap lockout happened. The wings had a Salary of 77+ million because they could trade for and sign expensive hall of fame veterans to boost their depth.

Had Selke Candidate centers on at least 2 of 4 of their lines, sometimes 3. No, they were not the only stacked team at the time, but they were usually the most stacked compared to the rest of the teams.

I semi-agree tho detroit tried to shed some of that salary prior to 04 but couldnt get rid of Joseph who earned $8 000 000.

and even tho they were a deep team on paper most of their high earners were past their prime players who spent most of the season on IR. Thomas, Hatcher, Wooley for example.

and lets not forget that other teams forced Detroit to overpay to keep their players since lesser team would poach with big contract offers. Lapointe is a prime example. The same happened to the other top teams ofc. Avs being the best example.

 

[Thenameless]

Just my perspective.

The early Av's team was better - as in the first one to win the Cup. Top end talent - check. Depth - check. Later on, the Av's lost a lot of their depth guys, and had to rely on their top end talent which wasn't enough - kinda like the Penguins today.


The early Red Wings weren't as good, as evidenced by their losses to New Jersey and the Av's. I think their top end talent "matured" and actually got better. But, the big key for them was Bowman. He managed the team impeccably, and my observation is that they did win because of their greater depth. This was achieved through a combination of great scouting and drafting, and some good trade deadline acquisitions.

Note that Scotty's now with Chicago, and look how they've done.

 

[Hobnobs]

Just my perspective.

The early Av's team was better - as in the first one to win the Cup. Top end talent - check. Depth - check. Later on, the Av's lost a lot of their depth guys, and had to rely on their top end talent which wasn't enough - kinda like the Penguins today.


The early Red Wings weren't as good, as evidenced by their losses to New Jersey and the Av's. I think their top end talent "matured" and actually got better. But, the big key for them was Bowman. He managed the team impeccably, and my observation is that they did win because of their greater depth. This was achieved through a combination of great scouting and drafting, and some good trade deadline acquisitions.

Note that Scotty's now with Chicago, and look how they've done.

in 95 their depth players were Errey, Draper, Burr, Brown, McCarty, Primeau and Grimson. It was rather that their depth matured. And that they found a perfect partner for Lidström in Murphy.

 

[Thenameless]

I guess what I'm saying is that Detroit's core remained much intact, but it was management's ability to keep filling in the gaps later on (Championship teams usually lose one or two key players) that kept them winning their Cups. Let's face it, poor management leads to poor results - think Islanders during the Milbury years.