I really like this thread title.
It encapsulates a lot of the complaints from the past couple of months really, really well.
It encapsulates a lot of the complaints from the past couple of months really, really well.
Post-Game Talk: Rangers @ Flyers | 3/26/13 | Derek Comcast!
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1. What Callagraves/Inferno/Kel said.
2. Philly is bad defensively.
3. And from the PGT:
Simple answer for you: The Torts haters on this board who specifically piss all over his system or claim that it stifles offense, don't actually ever provide legitimate points to back up this part of their argument. They just ***** and moan in a blind rage about it after losses. He preaches two-way play. But that is a far cry from "stifling" offense.
The people who complain about his system don't understand hockey. They don't understand that dumping and chasing is just a fact of life in hockey. It happens - and especially so on teams that don't have the offensive skill or creativity to carry the puck into the zone; or when you play against teams that play a neutral zone pressure/trap like system. They don't understand that this team doesn't have the puck skills outside of Nash, Richie when he's clicking, and maybe a few others like Step, Cally, and Hags to be able to consistently carry the puck into the zone, so they revert to the safe - and smart - hockey play of dumping it in (would you rather see more stupid JT Miller-style turnovers that lead to odd-man rushes? Lets get real). They don't understand that what they call "grinding" in the offensive zone is really just a form of cycling - which has been around for years, and which virtually every team does to try to maintain puck possession, force an error, and capitalize on it. They don't understand that Torts' focus on neutral zone play helps creates offense -- if you shut down a teams' transition or pressure them in ways that create turnovers, you get puck possession, get the puck deep in your offensive zone, and *gasp* can even get odd-man rushes. They don't understand that when Torts says that he "tries to stay out of the way of offense" he isn't saying that he doesn't coach offense, but just making the point that his defensive minded system does not get in the way of offensive creativity. They don't understand - or have understandably chosen to black out from their memory - that a huge part of why this team struggled for over a decade recently was a complete lack of dedication (up and down the organization - from GM to players) to a defensive-minded game; so they want to go "open it up" a bit more - essentially meaning switch to a run and gun system that we simply don't have the personnel for.
There are plenty of things to be upset with Torts about as a coach: constant line juggling, breaking up the Hag-Step-Nash line, his yo-yo game with Kreider earlier this year (he should have just been sent down to the AHL earlier and stayed there for a while), the complete lack of a power play, his apparent affinity for certain players which means he holds some people accountable but not others, his trust/inner circle issues which means it takes just one or two mistakes to make it into his dog house but it takes quite a while for players to get on his good side (for instance: I don't think Kreider deserved to be in the NHL in the beginning of the season with how he was playing, but if he was going to be slotted into the lineup some of his mid-game benchings didn't make a ton of sense; same goes for Torts taking forever to trust Stralman, or play Eminger/Gilroy over Bickel, etc), or his abrasive attitude with the media (though personally I like this, and think it isn't as raw and unscripted as some others do).
But the system complaint has just become a meme on these boards and is the go-to complaint for people who don't know what needs to change or what the real problems are, but feel like flailing about at something and the coach and his system are an easy target. This is because it means brighter days are ahead if we just change the coach - and it has nothing to do with the players not performing how they should or the GM putting together a flawed team (things that are arguably harder to fix, or more out of "our" control).
Understand - though I'm saying things that are down on the players, I'm not saying the team is a bad one. I actually have quite a lot of optimism for what they can achieve. Just that the things that need to be fixed are more like slight roster tweaks, one or two additions/subtractions, 60 minute efforts, and certain guys at least living up to expectations.
Yep...If they would have taken care of business at home against florida and grabbed at least a point against buffalo on the road I would be ok with 1-2 points games against ottawa/montreal. Now they have to find a way to beat Ottawa and hope that Montreal has an off game at home saturday (which never seems to happen against us in Montreal on saturday nights).
Amazing Kreiderman
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
- 45,067
- 40,911
3 of the last 6 because we faced Florida, Washington and Philly. That's not very good.
I can't go on these threads anymore. I'm still on cloud 9 over here and I come on here and people are still finding negatives to point out.
Hit it Kendrick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5-Soe3NJ0
Hit it Kendrick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ5-Soe3NJ0
It is overly defensive because we take a conservative approach to almost all situations. Our D joins the rush sometimes but they do not work as hard to keep pucks in at the point as other teams. We back up off the point and allow the breakout instead of risking a possible odd man rush. In the D zone we have no plan to breakout through the middle, ever. We constantly chip the puck out on the boards by design and therefore rarely get good speed with the puck through the neutral zone. In the D zone we pack it in and leave the points open and create the famous six goalie system. All of this leads to minimal puck possession in the neutral zone with speed which is a major factor why we dump and chase.
Also, Torts in his own words is more interested in play away from the puck than play with it. He admits this is what he focuses on and teaches. And then he hopes offense will flow from good defense. That my friend is a defensive system.
Thunderhead
Registered User
If you find a post too long and not worthy of your time, then don't read it. Quoting the entire thing, just to rip it apart based on length isn't going to fly.
C'mon guys.
C'mon guys.
cd211
Registered User
Thank you.. i've been playing, coaching and around hockey almost 20yrs and coming on here is really mind boggling for some POVs... everyone says they hate torts, yeah hes a rough one but thats why hes a damn good coach bc he the biggest thing about him is he holds rookies and vets in the same light whether your making league min or 12m a year he demands accountability.. I have yet to come on here outside of your post of what our system is or how we play.. other then it sucks and its dump and chase.. no logical rhyme or reason but you my friend I thank you for thinking logically about how we play and putting it to paper or in this case the screen..
thank you again! another logical reason of our system and not just it sucks and its dump and chase.. its all about hard work and accountability.. how is that a Crime?? playing strong on the boards, a physical game, positioning and keeping the puck below the goal line bad? It hard nose hockey and its all about having a work ethic. but thanks for a valid reason to our system and putting thought behind it then acting like half the fools on here in outrage!!
torts isn't a defensive coach. hes all about turning defense and transitioning quickly into offense.. theres a difference.. i just wanted to hear peoples thought out POVs.. bc its ridiculous..
thanks guys!! LGR!! big games coming up!!
Machinehead
HFNYR MVP
Callahan is thine lord and I would never say a cross word about him, and of course he's still an amazing leader, PKer, defensive forward, and all around pisser pretty much every night. But it's been 6 games now and for the sake of the team and my mental health, I am going to have to humbly appeal to my Captain to put the damn puck in the net. Thank you.
Synergy27
F-A-C-G-C-E
So, you come in here preaching the fact that you understand hockey better than everyone else, and then go ahead and only address half of the system that people have grown fond of attacking. On top of that, you try to make a point that our forwards aren't skilled enough to carry the puck into the zone, and then you name 5 of the top 6 as guys that certainly are capable of doing just that. I don't think anyone here wants or expects to see the third and fourth line backing the defense up with speed and creativity at the blueline - they're expected to dump and chase.
My problem with Torts' system is in the defensive zone. The collapsing, shot blocking style not only puts players at elevated risk for injury, it puts undue pressure on the whole team in the defensive end of the ice because it concedes possession. They allow the point men insane amounts of space while begging them to take point shots, and if they are unsuccessful at blocking those shots there are three possible outcomes:
1. A save by the goalie and then a faceoff.
2. A goal, and often a weird one. How often does Henrik get beat by weird deflections? Not a coincidence.
3. A rebound, either off the keeper or the boards that most times results in the process starting all over again because the defensive, reactive posture of the Rangers in their end leads to them getting beat in loose puck races.
This stifles offense like crazy. Odd man rushes and good scoring chances in the NHL are generated by forcing your opponent into mistakes. Grinding and cycling on offense often leads to these breakdowns, but so does aggressive defense. This, in addition to the fact that we have the best goalie in the world (he doesn't need people blocking/deflecting shots for him), is why I hate Torts system.
The system includes the time when the other team has the puck.
Great win last night, but I still have ZERO confidence in this team moving forward. Hopefully they prove me wrong.
If every person who moaned about Torts' system actually made substantive points about what they specifically didn't like, or how they would like to see it change - like you do - I would be much more inclined to look upon them favorably. But the reality is that they don't. So, I ignored "half" the system because I was responding to what I perceive to be the most consistent, popular, and off-base complaints about Torts system:
1. Hating the dump and chase.
2. Criticizing the "grinding" in the system.
3. Claiming it stifles offensive creativity.
4. Torts doesn't coach offense / the system strangles all the offense out of skilled players.
5. Wanting to "open up" the system more.
Point 1 ignores the reality that dump and chase is a part of hockey, and all teams use it. The majority of the people who I see complain about it also seem to think that there are very few situations in which it should be used and that yes, even our third and fourth lines should be better at zone entry, both of which are absurd.
Point 2 is similar to point 1. It is a part of hockey. Get used to it.
Point 3 is ridiculous. Neither Torts nor his system inhibits the forwards (or even the defensemen) from being creative offensively. If either of those were true, then what is happening in those all-too-few games this year when the team can actually make and receive a pass, has a good transition game, or stickhandles through the defense? They must have just abandoned the system during those games and those shifts, huh? That makes zero sense, what-so-ever. If they could do that all the time and against every team, they would.
Point 4 completely ignores the fact that Gabby had two 40-goal seasons under the same system. Rick Nash is having his best year, ppg-wise, under this system. It also ignores that our offensive troubles this year are related to 2 star players not performing to the level they should and a bottom 6 that was completely re-tooled and has no where near the offensive skill or depth scoring that it did last year.
Point 5 I read as: 'I'm bored watching them, I want moar goals!1!!' Even though it is often accompanied with essentially those words (or tone), this may be a bit hyperbolic on my part... but after sitting through 10+ seasons of defensively dreadful teams I have an instinctive reaction against this kind of thinking. It's a cliche, but the phrase "defense wins championships" doesn't exist for no reason.
I did list 5 of the top 6 -- but I also separated 3 of them out as "maybes"... I guess I wasn't really clear in how I meant that (what was in the head didn't quite make it out in words). So here you go (for the top 6): Gabby is weak on the puck all around - his game is primarily not about having possession of the puck, so he does not add much to the discussion here. So far this year, Richie has generally been utterly useless in this regard, among many others. Stepan is a great playmaker, but doesn't have the speed or strength on the puck to be consistently reliable at getting the puck in the zone without dumping it. Callahan in many ways is the opposite of Stepan (strength on the puck, but less of a playmaker). And in my mind, Hags lacks the puck skills to stickhandle it or pass it into the zone, but has the ability to gain the zone by backing the d off with his speed -- which he doesn't do enough. And many of those guys aren't all too hot at creative passing plays to enter the zone. So that leaves Nash as the sole player who can consistently get the puck into the zone without having to dump it. The others can do that; they just aren't skilled enough to consistently do that, which means you're going to see a lot of dump and chases. That is all I was trying to say.
Not sure what boards you're reading with the part of the above quote that I've bolded - but I've seen exactly that as one of the complaints. They especially want that out of the third line/our tweeners -- when Boyle, Miller, Kreider, etc dump the puck, the immediate reaction is that Torts made them do it; not that the defense forced them into a position where that was their only option, or that they didn't have the skill or NHL experience to be able to figure out how to gain the zone.
Despite my defense of Torts' system - I actually agree with some of what you say here; and almost included the collapsing defensive zone strategy among the "reasons to have a beef with Torts" list in my previous post.
- I agree that I hate how the collapsing zone coverage leaves the points with tons of time and space.
- But I think you overstate how passive they are in the defensive zone -- they give up the points, but they pressure the puck below the tops of the circles.
- I see your point about shot blocking having the potential to lead to more injuries, but don't see it as a reason not to execute the system. It is a part of the game. They should be doing everything they can to win - and that includes shot blocking. Checking players and being checked increases the chance of injury too; should they start shying away from physical play?
- I see your point about Lundqvist being an all-star goalie and not "needing" shot blockers. And while an unfortunate consequence of this system is that there can be unusual bounces off of shot blockers that lead to goals, this isn't necessarily the norm. That said, I think you underestimate the defensive value and benefit of throwing bodies and sticks in passing and shooting lanes. It closes off options, limits the areas of the net they have to shoot at, forces wide shots, and can force the opposing team to the perimeter. I personally see all of those things as adding more value than the occasional bad deflection goal off our own guy.
- That said, I don't think the defensive zone system has been executed all that well by the players this year, so it hasn't looked quite as good as it has in the past or gotten the same results. Some of that is a result of roster turnover, and some of that is the d-men looking more shaky than last year. Personally I think the new additions can, will, and have been getting better at it with time -- and would rather not see it completely abandoned. But I could be convinced that this is where Torts needs to make some tweaks to respond to the limitations/effort of new personnel.
Aggressive defense also generally leads to many more mistakes and thus quality scoring chances for the other team. It goes both ways.
Fair point; I'll agree to disagree here though for the reasons I mentioned above.
Cmon that was a terrible call, if you want to get on the guy get on him for something real
The Gaborik plays was an intentional off-side in the OFFENSIVE ZONE. It wasn't a defensive play he fumbled.
Nac Mac Feegle
wee & free
- Jun 10, 2011
- 35,789
- 10,338
Sorry about that. I didn't quite word my previous post all that well.
I'm not suggesting hard work and playing along the boards itself is a bad thing. It's actually a very reasonable, and very 'safe' way of doing things. A hard-working team can often beat a highly skilled team in a series. It's a way less talented teams can even the playing field and get some wins. It's just very...safe...very basic.
Torts sometimes like to act like a hockey guru, throwing out catch phrases like jam and swagger to enthrall the fans and media. That's what annoys me. There just seems to be a wee bit more time spent on image and media manipulation for my liking. Preaching hard work and being a motivational coach is something that many people can do (assuming you have the lungpower
). I honestly put more weight on a tactical coach - a guy who really has to understand the intricacies of the game and come up with strategies and counter-strategies to win.
Nothing against him as a coach, as he is probably one of the best motivational coaches in the league right now. It's just his tactics of always going up the boards, a stationary powerplay, and overall lack of creativity make the team somewhat predictable and basic. These aren't the Gretzky years, where the Great One can do the same freaking move for 10 years before teams find a counter; teams nowadays tear apart basic systems quickly and can find counters within a season or two.
Yeah the puck his Gaborik's skate, but how is he at fault? It was a freak play that was executed from a set play off a face-off. It happens. I'm more pissed at Gaborik for not getting a SOG against Philadelphia.
Ritcher scale, i double dog donut dare you to have a post less than 2903 words
Blasphemy! Never - walls of text for everyone! ...oops. So seems I pulled it of, what do I get?
Synergy27
F-A-C-G-C-E
@Richter Scale
I appreciate the intelligent response. I think we're on the same page for the most part. The criticism of Torts, like most things, doesn't and shouldn't be black and white. He does some things well and other things poorly. I personally think that he's not the right guy to take this team to the next level, but I suppose he's earned some leeway.
I appreciate the intelligent response. I think we're on the same page for the most part. The criticism of Torts, like most things, doesn't and shouldn't be black and white. He does some things well and other things poorly. I personally think that he's not the right guy to take this team to the next level, but I suppose he's earned some leeway.
Boruto
.
- Jun 27, 2011
- 15,613
- 436
One thing that I think you guys are failing to take into consideration though (despite many valid points) is that
1. People join in on a mob mentality, yours truly included.
2. The emotional and sentimental response after a loss and during a losing stretch combined with the under performing team in a season that may turn out to be a let down distorts what people would rationally say about Torts. He's won a cup, he's gotten 400 wins and he's built a group of defensively sound players here for years to come. So despite the hate around here for Torts, HFNYR thinks much higher of him than the comments lately seem to indicate, I hope.
3. Brian Boyle sucks.
Callagraves
Block shots
- Jan 24, 2011
- 6,373
- 2
I haven't said anything because he's been playing well and even picking up assists, but he's slumping a little bit offensively for the past 3 games.
Thankfully, he didn't need to score last night, but he somehow managed to be the only member of the top six not to log a point. I'll give him credit for a great screen on Richards's goal though, Bryz never saw that one.
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