OT: Raise the Jolly Rodger: Shipmates starting to report for duty

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Zirakzigil

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This seems very bizarre. There's often more to these small moves than initially jumps out (guy has another opportunity, wants to move on for whatever reason, etc.), but Nunnally not really having many prospects to work with in AA and then also being the guy Hayes credited with getting him feeling good at the plate again is pretty weird.


Quintana would be a great reunion. Indeed Steve Cohen seems content to not spend $300m to just finish 2nd at best to the Braves.

Yeah I asked my old roommate who's a mega Mets fan what he thought a trade would look like, and he pretty much said a good middle reliever would get it done. I think Quintana would ultimately be pretty cheap to acquire due to his age.

I jokingly said "do you want Holderman" back in response but I think you could pull off Quintana for cheap, just so the Mets can get out of the money commitment.

It would be great to bring back Quintana, as I think with him and Hill, having a veteran in the rotation is really helpful. I think he's stabilized his value somewhat given that he came back from the injury and pitched solid, but it's likely that the Mets would really like being out of his contract.

From a distance, it seems like their offseason might revolve around Alonso, since either they step up for him and retool slightly, or they focus full-on on retooling the roster and then it's advantageous to get rid of as much salary as possible. I would assume Stearns has a lot of leeway to do whatever he wants, and that situationally it makes sense to tear down.

There's some risk attached to Quintana due to age, so I think that could weigh in his return, but I also figure he's got a decent value given that he has tons of experience and pitching is always extremely scarce. On the other hand, he might be more of a guy that appeals to middle tier or lower teams, since the really top end teams don't want to necessarily anchor themselves to that kind of deal for what might be more like SP4 or 5 and not a playoff starter (if you take the more cynical view of decline -- look at Ryu as an example). All that is to say that I think these factors make it a great play for the Pirates, even if something decent is given up from the depth prospects group. Hard to imagine checking off a badly needed SP with a better contract than 2/26M.

On what they'd pay for Quintana, you can easily rationalize paying for him because they got Oviedo for him as a rental a year ago. The original Quintana trade was so terrific for the Pirates that I think you can rationalize trading back for him without any concerns.

This is especially true if they pull from their spare middle infield depth to pull him off.

I think Quintana could be had for nothing, if we take on the full $13M. The Mets really want to take the year off of the luxury tax and want the option to retain Alonso.

Holderman's performance this year was ick but I wouldn't trade him for Quintana at $13M. Maybe Quintana at $7-8M.

I dunno, plenty of time to see if / how it shakes out in the offseason, but I think it could still take a young player or prospect, just not a particularly good one. Maybe someone like Williams, for example. He's cheap defensive depth that holds a spot on some 40-man rosters due to his floor and control years, but he needs to hit some more in order to even be really in the mix as a bench option.

Or some likely-not-to-hit but still not nothing full-on prospects. Some prospect hounds like these guys, so I am not suggesting them in particular, but maybe someone like Ashcraft or Bowen. I think you can look at Quintana on paper like a 2-win pitcher who is properly paid. He put up a 3-win pace if he pitched 150 innings, and he was a regular stalwart for more than that for basically his entire career.

It's really appealing as a proposition, and I don't think even taps into the total of what should be invested this winter. If you asked me to dream up a quasi-realistic starting point, it might be trade for Quintana + sign Giolito. That gives you two veterans with strong chances to cover 170+ innings each, together with Keller and Oviedo who are both already there. Neither might be ideal playoff starters in a vacuum, but we don't even need to get so far ahead of ourselves.

I don't love Giolito, but I just want to see them try this offseason.

Nick Martinez is my preferred righty option: Nick Martinez Stats, Fantasy & News

He has a weird contract with the Padres where they have a 2/$32M team option, which if they turn it down converts to a 2/$16M player option. I think he'll walk and we could get him for something like 2/$20M. I really liked his stuff when he pitched against us.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Good showing from Jase Bowen in the first game of the Arizona Fall League tonight, as he batted 9th and was on base 3 times, with a single and double (looks like he had a third hit but it was later ruled an error). He didn't strike out, which is even better. On the other hand, tough start for Brannigan, who struck out 3 times.

The AFL has less star power this year than in a long time, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Usually it can be a showcase league where we see the value of some prospects go up, as they are to an extent on display to the whole league, given the heavy scouting presence that is there. Bowen could make for a curious case in this regard, since he's got a great collection of tools but some swing and miss concerns. He's the kind of guy who could work his way into the mix if things click and he doesn't K, because he's got speed and power, but he's also the kind of volatile guy who might be good to "sell high" on, if there's a trade that presents itself.

We're talking the talk of a 65/35 Endy and Davis split or something along those lines, but I think there's some chance Davis won't play close to that next year, meaning that 3/5 OFs are pretty covered with Reynolds, him, and Suwinski. It's a wider conversation but I'd almost prefer to see Davis get marching orders to sharpen up in RF, since you run the risk of having him focus on the defensive position and then seeing the bat continue to struggle some. At the same time, I think it's easy to be cavalier about this from the armchair, as there is obviously an extent to which Davis himself wants to be a catcher, and is more comfortable back there, so maybe the split makes sense and keeps both fresh.
 

WickedWrister

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Just going to throw this name out there since he's been talked about this week... Trevor Bauer.

 
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Empoleon8771

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Just going to throw this name out there since he's been talked about this week... Trevor Bauer.


No
 

WickedWrister

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Fair enough. I understand he's a divisive person and while I'm not taking the video he released this week at 100% face value, some of the text messages he showed of his accuser were pretty wild. As it stands I believe he is eligible to return to the MLB? And with this lawsuit settled, I could see some MLB teams being interested.
 

Rave7215

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Just going to throw this name out there since he's been talked about this week... Trevor Bauer.

Absolutely not
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I would never say never with some MLB teams, but I think Bauer is completely done and I agree I want absolutely nothing to do with him. He has multiple accusers beyond just this situation he released a video about. And if this can all be set aside, I think he's still really unlikely to have anyone interested because he's a complete and total clubhouse cancer on multiple teams going all the way back to college. Maybe a team like the Rockies that is always needing an edge and some pitching, but I just can't see it happening.

I think Montgomery's start today probably earned him a bigger payday this winter. I think he is going to at least get nine digits which makes him well out of anything we can dream on. I hope we're aggressive with whatever we are going to do. Cherington is saying some of the right things but it's never worth reading into GM-speak because it's designed to say nothing. I think generally speaking, he is aggressive and decisive when he moves, but I will believe any kind of multi-year impact move (even if it's a trade) when I see it.

I'll maybe be cautiously optimistic or talk myself into being there in about six weeks... I don't think this is saying much, but it's pretty much patently obvious that we need some rotation help and badly if we want to even think about doing anything. One of the best opening salvos Cherington could do is aggressively press for Quintana, even if it meant perhaps paying something more in prospect cost than he'd have to after other moves shake out. Quintana is not costing you a 50FV prospect or anything along those lines, and IMO if you "have" to move an interesting 40+ or 45FV guy, you just do it, as that's a lockdown move for the middle of the rotation that would instantly set a good tone. My ideal opening is that + Cutch signing and then be in the rumors for Giolito, etc., and see how things shake out from there.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Just read Mackey's oddseason preview from yesterday and something that jumped out at me is that we got pretty deep in discussions with Keller during the season about an extension. That's a good sign on top of the mutual interest that exists, enough to make me optimistic that we'll check that box at some point this offseason.

I may be reading into it a bit, but he also seemed to allude to a possible Connor Joe trade (I find him a bit maddening sometimes, as he can veer between reporting and his own perspective or speculation without clearly indicating which... it's not a problem and he is really good and straight up about not trying to invent rumors, but minor times like this, I find it annoying).

Anyways, running with that notion a bit, I think it could make a good bit of sense and actually be possible. I'm just throwing stuff at the wall with this one, but I could see something like a swap with an AL team like the Guardians or Mariners for a reliever. If I am not mistaken, Trevor Stephan is Clase's set-up man, but he's in arbitration now and Joe is the Guardians type of pitcher. The Mariners have a wealth of good stuff guys all up and down their org, and DiPoto loves wheeling and dealing, so those would be my hail mary guesses.

From the Pirates perspective, it could be a smart way to improve. Joe is a pretty nice complementary player to have, so I don't think he should be shoved out the door or anything like that, but if flipping him is a way to give yourself another leverage option in the bullpen, it seems like a good call. Assuming Cutch comes back and will play in RF at least occasionally, it also lets the bench become more flexible, which I think is advantageous.


Finally, this wasn't in Mackey at all, but I'll take a small stab at something that I think is unlikely to happen and unlikely to be popular as an idea or if it does happen. If the White Sox would trade Tim Anderson for nothing, or especially if they cut him loose, I think he's well worth taking the flier on as the starting 2B. His stock has cratered but he's had a weird couple of years in terms of injuries, and he's still not too old to get back to the pace of a 3-4 win player. He's a classic fit at the leadoff spot and I think could be a spark plug.

It would be quite a pivot, since given the big needs at SP and 1B, it'd be hard to justify allocating what little payroll space there will be to yet another middle infielder, but I think it's the kind of gamble that could really catapult us, whereas the 1B options for example seem like diminishing returns (to me it just seems kind of obvious to get Santana back and have Triolo/Endy play there sometimes). This is way too much wishcasting, but I'd love to see Cutch brought back immediately + a trade for Quintana, and then see if you can concentrate from the group of Bae, Gonzales, and Peguero by trading for better pitching depth, then see if you can bring Anderson in on a two-year deal to really make a run in the immediate future.
 

Empoleon8771

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I have actually been thinking a lot about whether we'll see Joe traded this off-season. I think he showed he's a legitimate MLB platoon player at a corner outfield position or 1B, but I don't think that's particularly a need with this team. With how good Andujar was to end the season, you could trade Joe for pitching help and just slide Andujar into Joe's old role. You could also trade Joe and just not worry about replacing his position flexibility, because the LF/RF/1B position group isn't hard to fill with other players.

This is wildly too early predictions, but let's assume they bring back McCutchen and sign a 1B in free agency like Santana. That would leave them with a MLB roster of:

C: Endy
1B: Santana
2B: Triolo
SS: Cruz
3B: Hayes
LF: Reynolds
CF: Suwinski
RF: Davis
DH: McCutchen

Bench: Peguero (2B/SS), Bae (OF/2B), Delay (C) and Joe (1B/LF/RF)

That lineup looks good to me, but I seriously question how much Joe is going to be getting into the lineup with this setup. Santana and Reynolds will both be playing a huge majority of the games in LF or 1B, especially when McCutchen is healthy as the DH. Davis is arguably their crown jewel hitting prospect and I very much imagine they're not going to want him to be splitting time with Joe.

The reason I could see trading Joe making sense is that he's too good to have as a bench piece but I don't see a spot for him in a regular role for the Pirates, even as a platoon guy. The only way I'd change my mind on that is if they signed someone like Belt to play 1B and then platoon Joe and Belt at 1B, but I'd rather get a better full-time 1B for that spot. I think using Joe as a trade chip to help with the pitching staff likely helps better than having Joe as a bench piece, just because I don't think Joe will play enough as a bench piece (when healthy). He's a luxury to have on your bench.

Also speaking of McCutchen



"So many great memories from this szn. Although it didn’t end the way I intended it to, I truly cherished every moment a bit more this time around. Being away from Pittsburgh gave me time to reflect on the previous 9 years I spent here, and man did I miss it. But I’ll keep this short and sweet. Pittsburgh,Thank you for your love, your cheers and your support. I can’t wait for next szn."

It was always a given but I think this basically confirms it.
 

Josey Wales

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I have actually been thinking a lot about whether we'll see Joe traded this off-season. I think he showed he's a legitimate MLB platoon player at a corner outfield position or 1B, but I don't think that's particularly a need with this team. With how good Andujar was to end the season, you could trade Joe for pitching help and just slide Andujar into Joe's old role. You could also trade Joe and just not worry about replacing his position flexibility, because the LF/RF/1B position group isn't hard to fill with other players.

This is wildly too early predictions, but let's assume they bring back McCutchen and sign a 1B in free agency like Santana. That would leave them with a MLB roster of:

C: Endy
1B: Santana
2B: Triolo
SS: Cruz
3B: Hayes
LF: Reynolds
CF: Suwinski
RF: Davis
DH: McCutchen

Bench: Peguero (2B/SS), Bae (OF/2B), Delay (C) and Joe (1B/LF/RF)

That lineup looks good to me, but I seriously question how much Joe is going to be getting into the lineup with this setup. Santana and Reynolds will both be playing a huge majority of the games in LF or 1B, especially when McCutchen is healthy as the DH. Davis is arguably their crown jewel hitting prospect and I very much imagine they're not going to want him to be splitting time with Joe.

The reason I could see trading Joe making sense is that he's too good to have as a bench piece but I don't see a spot for him in a regular role for the Pirates, even as a platoon guy. The only way I'd change my mind on that is if they signed someone like Belt to play 1B and then platoon Joe and Belt at 1B, but I'd rather get a better full-time 1B for that spot. I think using Joe as a trade chip to help with the pitching staff likely helps better than having Joe as a bench piece, just because I don't think Joe will play enough as a bench piece (when healthy). He's a luxury to have on your bench.

Also speaking of McCutchen



"So many great memories from this szn. Although it didn’t end the way I intended it to, I truly cherished every moment a bit more this time around. Being away from Pittsburgh gave me time to reflect on the previous 9 years I spent here, and man did I miss it. But I’ll keep this short and sweet. Pittsburgh,Thank you for your love, your cheers and your support. I can’t wait for next szn."

It was always a given but I think this basically confirms it.

Why id God's Name would you want Santana back ?
 

DJ Spinoza

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I think the lineup still needs a boost, though undoubtedly a lot of that boost needs to come from Cruz, Davis, and Endy. This is why my too-early soapbox of the offseason is going to be Anderson, because I think he'll be a calculated buy-low at a position we don't really have covered.

The way I'd draw up my wishcasting is that TA covers 2B and can give Cruz spells from SS. Triolo then has a leg up as the utility IF who backs up everywhere but SS, and this allows Peguero/Gonzales/Bae to either be used as potential trade chips or to force the issue of being on the roster somehow.

The latter is yet another reason I think you entertain moving Joe. Joe's a nice complementary player, so again I am not particularly in a hurry to see him go, but you could look at it as selling high on him. I think a straight up trade for a guy like Stephan is shooting way too high given the positional value of leverage reliever vs. above average corner guy (with average at best power), but something in that vein seems like a good dice throw.
 

WickedWrister

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I mean I'd personally like to aim a little higher than Carlos Santana if that's one of our "big" offseason moves.

Mentioned him before but I think Rhys Hoskins might be more attainable coming of an ACL injury.
 
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ChaosAgent

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I would go for Brandon Belt. 1/$10M or thereabouts. His lack of games played scares me but he is absolutely a middle-order guy against righties.
 

sovietsanta87

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Fair enough. I understand he's a divisive person and while I'm not taking the video he released this week at 100% face value, some of the text messages he showed of his accuser were pretty wild. As it stands I believe he is eligible to return to the MLB? And with this lawsuit settled, I could see some MLB teams being interested.
If it’s a no it’s because of his attitude as a pitcher and teammate. He’s always been a difficult person “misunderstood” according to defenders.

It’s not a no based on the allegations against him. 1) innocent until proven guilt and 2) there’s certainly more evidence to support he was setup by someone trying to take his money.

Whether we sign him or not, if what he’s posted is true then I hope he sues MLB for the money he lost
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I'd be happy to see us pursue Hoskins, though I think there's at least a 50/50 chance that the Phillies give him a qualifying offer (or a one year deal outright).

It's hard to guess what he might get. Teams generally don't pay a lot for one dimensional corner players, especially 1B/DH only, and having a QO over him would torpedo his value. In our case I think it would mean forfeiting the second round pick.

I also think there's some chance that a signing like that could be a real dud. He won't provide defensive value and he'll have missed a whole year of competitive baseball, so for a somewhat streaky power guy, it could backfire. Santana is not a sure thing, but he provides the good defensive value and his plate discipline suggests that he won't hurt you offensively, even if he probably won't provide the offense you want at 1B.

For me, it's tough to say, because it's all conditional on what they do with pitching. Even if we went and got Quintana and then managed to convince Severino to sign a one-year deal -- both of which would be great -- I won't be ok with taking the safer play at 1B. In a vacuum I do prefer Santana to a lot of guys because of the defensive value and because he's a veteran, but we need to put some skin in the game this winter. I guess what I'm meandering towards saying is that I like a Santana reunion because then I think it slightly increases the chances we'll really take a run at someone like Giolito.
 
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