Quinn Hughes is having a Hart caliber season

[Warh1ppy]

Still is. Hes sheltered to O zone starts, rare d zone starts, but only with Petey or Miller protecting him, and no PK. Hes a great offensive player, but the actual defense is very handicapped.

This is not exactly correct. Looking at the most basic stats that detail o-zone to d-zone starts; it looks that way but break them down even more and you see that quinn hughes actually has the bulk of his starts in the transition over direct o-zone which is more impressive when you consider his ability to break in to the offensive zone.

Bottom line is Hughes dragging the Canucks in to the post season deserves him hart consideration period. There's no homerism it's just a fact when you see how much he is outpacing everyone else on his team. As well it is unlike Karlsson in SJ in which he is in fact defensively responsible where as Karlsson was a tire fire on one ankle

And since it needs to be said, if we're jumping on the Makar bandwagon in hypothetical only, switch the two players. How does Makar look on that dysfunctional Vancouver blue line without Raantanen/Mckinnon/Toews vs Hughes with them? I bet Hughes at that point looks like the endlessly superior player as well

 

[benfranklin]

He plays 25 mins a game on average, and you want him to play more mins so you can say he pks?

I didn't know you can play 25 -27 mins a game without playing any defence

Top 10 dmen by minutes. Guess who is the only one who doesnt PK.

This is not exactly correct. Looking at the most basic stats that detail o-zone to d-zone starts; it looks that way but break them down even more and you see that quinn hughes actually has the bulk of his starts in the transition over direct o-zone which is more impressive when you consider his ability to break in to the offensive zone.

Bottom line is Hughes dragging the Canucks in to the post season deserves him hart consideration period. There's no homerism it's just a fact when you see how much he is outpacing everyone else on his team. As well it is unlike Karlsson in SJ in which he is in fact defensively responsible where as Karlsson was a tire fire on one ankle

And since it needs to be said, if we're jumping on the Makar bandwagon in hypothetical only, switch the two players. How does Makar look on that dysfunctional Vancouver blue line without Raantanen/Mckinnon/Toews vs Hughes with them? I bet Hughes at that point looks like the endlessly superior player as well

I could get on the bandwagon of he deserves more Hart votes than Norris votes at this point, but obviously to win one without the other is just silly in todays NHL. I dont disagree that its not his fault. Its his usage. Their team sucks and they need. his offense.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Since 99.9% of this board is too lazy to look up and dissect advanced analytics and can only go off of Jfresh cards or simply offensive numbers, here you go. His defensive zone faceoffs have consistently gone down over his career and obviously when Tocchet took over, he has primarily used Quinn offensively, which is fine and I dont disagree with, but lets not pretend like hes this amazing defensemen. He is doing exactly what Karlsson did except the Canucks are not as bad as the Sharks.

Then the PK. Dude has played a total of 7:28 this season on the PK. That is a pathetic showing for a #1 dman. This dissection all started when comparing what was different last season between Hughes, Makar, Josi, Fox, Bouchard, and Hedman. All players went up in actual d zone starts and PK, while wait for it...Bouchard and Hughes went the opposite direction and no shit their offensive numbers skyrocketed while the others tapered off a bit. At least 22-23 Karlsson played some PK time pretending to play actual defense.

And like I said, I dont blame the Canucks. The offensive talent is there with him.

oh, my bad, i thought you were a serious poster.

 

[wetcoast]

Top 10 dmen by minutes. Guess who is the only one who doesnt PK.


I could get on the bandwagon of he deserves more Hart votes than Norris votes at this point, but obviously to win one without the other is just silly in todays NHL.

Now look at the actual PK MPG and where are the other 2 Norris finalists?

Makar is 71st among all Dmen and Zach is 122nd but keep on doubling and tripling down your own rabbit hole here.

 

[benfranklin]

Now look at the actual PK MPG and where are the other 2 Norris finalists?

Makar is 71st among all Dmen and Zach is 122nd but keep on doubling and tripling down your own rabbit hole here.

Total PK time so far. Not really fair to look at overall list like you did, but ill look at % of their teams PK, which I think you will agree with.

VAN: 257:17
COL: 212:45
CBJ: 224:42

Hughes: 7:28 - 2.9%
Makar: 110:12 - 51.8%
Werenski: 79:12 - 35.25%

Hughes is the only one who missed any games (4), but obviously a lol at him missing PK time there.

 

[thefutures]

Total PK time so far. Not really fair to look at overall list like you did, but ill look at % of their teams PK, which I think you will agree with.

VAN: 257:17
COL: 212:45
CBJ: 224:42

Hughes: 7:28 - 2.9%
Makar: 110:12 - 51.8%
Werenski: 79:12 - 35.25%

Hughes is the only one who missed any games (4), but obviously a lol at him missing PK time there.

It's gunna be okay bra, Makar will win another Norris. Just not this year.

 

[Breakers]

We know who is sheltered amongst those defenseman

Somebody just can’t seem to accept it

 

[benfranklin]

It's gunna be okay bra, Makar will win another Norris. Just not this year.

We all know the Norris is a glorified defensive Art Ross with +/- being the exception to pump someone up. Voters arent complicated. Going off that, Hughes has it right now because of less games played.

We know who is sheltered amongst those defenseman

Somebody just can’t seem to accept it

Please give your rational. I posted inarguable statistics. The only thing Ive heard ever is that faceoffs dont matter because majority of starts come on the fly. Not the worst argument, but still cannot argue that faceoffs (even if they matter little) are skewed in Hughes favor offensively. Then PK, there is no argument since he is the only top dman who doesnt PK.

 

[Grifter3511]

We all know the Norris is a glorified defensive Art Ross with +/- being the exception to pump someone up. Voters arent complicated. Going off that, Hughes has it right now because of less games played.


Please give your rational. I posted inarguable statistics. The only thing Ive heard ever is that faceoffs dont matter because majority of starts come on the fly. Not the worst argument, but still cannot argue that faceoffs (even if they matter little) are skewed in Hughes favor offensively. Then PK, there is no argument since he is the only top dman who doesnt PK.

But why is PK all important for determining who the best dman is? Doesn't every single thing ultimately come down to, 'who helps their team win the most?'
Hughes doesn't do this one very specific thing as much as Makar, but he is doing every other thing (which makes up the majority of BOTH players TOI) significantly better than him, so therefore Hughes is better (currently).

 

[Toby91ca]

Datsyuk won the Selke 3 straight years despite playing very little on the PK and was 3rd three years in a row after that playing about half the limited time in his 3 Selke years I guess he sucked too eh?

To be fair:

1 - Datsyuk was a forward, not defenseman.
2 - People still argued it should have been another guy winning, voters placed too much weight on his takeaway stats since they were so much higher than everyone else.
3 - Low PK time, but in those 3 years, on a per game basis he had PK times of 1:48, 1:36 and 0:45....still significantly higher than Hughes.
4 - If you check Norris winners, starting in 1997 when time on ice stats started to be tracked, a lot of the winners were 4 and 5 min+. It's dropped a bit in the last 10 years or so, but still 2+ min on average. Karlsson won with 0:34, 0:34 and 0:22.....which are huge outliers, but still significantly more than what Hughes is playing this year. If Hughes wins the Norris this year, it will be something we've never seen before. That's just talking about Norris and not Hart. The year Pronger won Norris and Hart, he was playing 27+ min per night and close to 5 min per game on both PP and PK....so he played in every situation, more than everyone else.

 

[Breakers]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Where's hughes???????????

where's he at if he is so sheltered. i see some other notable names

I could increase the minimum TOI to 500 minutes instead of 300, and he still wasnt top 30 offensive zone start percentage

""""""inarguable""""""

 

[Toby91ca]

But why is PK all important for determining who the best dman is? Doesn't every single thing ultimately come down to, 'who helps their team win the most?'
Hughes doesn't do this one very specific thing as much as Makar, but he is doing every other thing (which makes up the majority of BOTH players TOI) significantly better than him, so therefore Hughes is better (currently).

I think the issue is, for a defensive type of award, to be considered the best, you wouldn't expect to be kept off the ice in a defensive situation (i.e. PK). History has shown this is the case for Selke and Norris winners....there have been some outliers, but Hughes time this year would be a huge outlier to those outliers.

I can agree and disagree with arguments on both sides of this debate, though would lean towards a Dman playing PK for me to vote for him as my Norris winner....but that's an opinion thing. What's not an opinion is simply that no one in history (at least since the stats have been tracked), have played anywhere near this little on PK and won the award.....that's just the factual data here.

 

[benfranklin]

But why is PK all important for determining who the best dman is? Doesn't every single thing ultimately come down to, 'who helps their team win the most?'
Hughes doesn't do this one very specific thing as much as Makar, but he is doing every other thing (which makes up the majority of BOTH players TOI) significantly better than him, so therefore Hughes is better (currently).

PK is one of two pretty important parts of the game of hockey (zone start via faceoff being the other) I brought up that determine what zone of the ice they literally play in.

 

[Breakers]

PK is one of two pretty important parts of the game of hockey (zone start via faceoff being the other) I brought up that determine what zone of the ice they literally play in.


This is why I dont respond. What language is this in? Do you hit return/enter at random on purpose to make it harder to read?

proven wrong and can't accept it. Classic

 

[Grifter3511]

I think the issue is, for a defensive type of award, to be considered the best, you wouldn't expect to be kept off the ice in a defensive situation (i.e. PK). History has shown this is the case for Selke and Norris winners....there have been some outliers, but Hughes time this year would be a huge outlier to those outliers.

I can agree and disagree with arguments on both sides of this debate, though would lean towards a Dman playing PK for me to vote for him as my Norris winner....but that's an opinion thing. What's not an opinion is simply that no one in history (at least since the stats have been tracked), have played anywhere near this little on PK and won the award.....that's just the factual data here.

All fair points. So out of curiousity, when is the last time the NHL had a dman lead all defensemen in points, ppg, be the top scorer on their team by a significant margin, get their team into the playoffs (which obviously hasn't happened yet for Hughes) and have the same kind of dominant analytics as Hughes, and not win the Norris?

 

[benfranklin]

proven wrong and can't accept it. Classic

I honestly didn't read it. At least you were almost nearly so close grammatically correct here.

 

[Jetcetera]

He's behind draisaitl and hellebuyck

 

[GRob83]

If any defenseman deserves MVP this season, It's Werenski for me. Hughes is the Vancouver Captain and that team has clearly de-railed while underachieving this season. I can't believe he doesn't want out of that mess.

 

[benfranklin]

All fair points. So out of curiousity, when is the last time the NHL had a dman lead all defensemen in points, ppg, be the top scorer on their team by a significant margin, get their team into the playoffs (which obviously hasn't happened yet for Hughes) and have the same kind of dominant analytics as Hughes, and not win the Norris?

Josi in 21-22?

I am curious what "dominant analytics" you are referring to though. If you're referring to corsi/fenwick, he's n the top 10 in both (great, but hardly dominating), but I also explained via zone start time how he is handicapped there a bit.

Curious why noone else looks at all strength corsi/fenwick and ask why are Hughes/Bouchard/Ghost top 3. Hmmmm cant be that none PK ever.

 

[Grifter3511]

Josi in 21-22?

I am curious what "dominant analytics" you are referring to though. If you're referring to corsi/fenwick, he's n the top 10 in both (great, but hardly dominating), but I also explained via zone start time how he is handicapped there a bit.

Curious why noone else looks at all strength corsi/fenwick and ask why are Hughes/Bouchard/Ghost top 3. Hmmmm cant be that none PK ever.

Josi finished with 11% and 14% more points than the next highest predator. Hughes has 65% more points than the next highest Canuck.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If any defenseman deserves MVP this season, It's Werenski for me. Hughes is the Vancouver Captain and that team has clearly de-railed while underachieving this season. I can't believe he doesn't want out of that mess.

are you kidding? this is disney movie stuff

promising team looking to build off a breakthrough season and then everything that can go wrong went wrong. center depth and especially the defence take massive losses due in free agency, the team’s toughest player gets cancer, superstar goalie hurt, leading goal scorer concussed, two 100 pt centers feuding, one remains in a yearlong funk while the other needed a mysterious leave of absence, 2D gets hurt and at one point with both hronek and myers out we were rolling only two legit NHL dmen. and through it all, quinn hughes keeps this team alive while somehow improving on a norris-winning season.

so imagine, the first 50 games were just obstacles. miller and petey get back on the same page and play like they can, boeser gets in a groove, demko rounds back into his best goalie in the world form, joshua gets his sea legs, hoglander bounces back, a timely trade brings in a much needed #3 dman, one or both of willander after his college season ends and the defenceman elias pettersson make the team for good and contribute, maybe debrusk gets hot and garland keeps up his career year, and this team goes on a run to the cup.

i’d watch that movie. timothee chalamet plays hughes.

 

[benfranklin]

Josi finished with 11% and 14% more points than the next highest predator. Hughes has 65% more points than the next highest Canuck.

Im with you, but them (Miller, Boes, Petey) having bad seasons does not make Hughes average (for him) season better. If he was 20-30 points ahead of Makar and Werenski, then ok.

Kuch putting up 144 when Point still put up 90 and Stamkos 81 is more impressive.

The Canucks need to be better than a wild card spot (because the Pacific is a joke) to really pump that argument more for him.

And ofcourse, this still is not referencing any actual defense.

 

[GRob83]

are you kidding? this is disney movie stuff

promising team looking to build off a breakthrough season and then everything that can go wrong went wrong. center depth and especially the defence take massive losses due in free agency, the team’s toughest player gets cancer, superstar goalie hurt, leading goal scorer concussed, two 100 pt centers feuding, one remains in a yearlong funk while the other needed a mysterious leave of absence, 2D gets hurt and at one point with both hronek and myers out we were rolling only two legit NHL dmen. and through it all, quinn hughes keeps this team alive while somehow improving on a norris-winning season.

so imagine, the first 50 games were just obstacles. miller and petey get back on the same page and play like they can, boeser gets in a groove, demko rounds back into his best goalie in the world form, joshua gets his sea legs, hoglander bounces back, a timely trade brings in a much needed #3 dman, one or both of willander after his college season ends and the defenceman elias pettersson make the team for good and contribute, maybe debrusk gets hot and garland keeps up his career year, and this team goes on a run to the cup.

i’d watch that movie. timothee chalamet plays hughes.

I didn't know Vancouver's best player got killed in the off-season. Columbus wasn't expected to compete WITH Gaudreau. What they've done WITHOUT him is the kind of thing you make a movie about. If they end up in the Playoffs it will be largely due to Werenski. Vancouver won their Division just LAST YEAR.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I didn't know Vancouver's best player got killed in the off-season. Columbus wasn't expected to compete WITH Gaudreau. What they've done WITHOUT him is the kind of thing you make a movie about. If they end up in the Playoffs it will be largely due to Werenski. Vancouver won their Division just LAST YEAR.

lol i didn’t realize it was a contest but for sure i’d watch a columbus movie too

 

[Chet Donnelly]

The Canucks need to be better than a wild card spot (because the Pacific is a joke) to really pump that argument more for him.

I disagree. The bottom teams are pretty bad (Sharks, Ducks, Kraken), but the top three I think are just as competitive as other division leaders (Golden Knights, Oilers, Kings).