Quinn Hughes is having a Hart caliber season

[Rowlet]

Sure, the Avs have MacKinnon as a 1C. But guess who the Avs real 2C was most of last year? Nope it’s not Johansen. The Avs 2nd line for the majority of last year was Wood-Colton-OConnor. A third line centered by Colton vs Miller and Petterssonn. Have you considered that Vancouver might have better depth? Sure they don’t have a 1Casgoid as MacKinnon but the drop off between Vancouvers 1C and 2C isn’t as steep. Your constant refrain of “making others better” is a little daft in that he’s not making the others better (as in non top line) as much as it’s that Vancouver’s others have been better for the most part.

And guess what. The last time the Avs had a 2C like Miller or Petterrssonn was...take a guess...2022 when Kadri had over 90 pts. You don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is partly the reason why people are referring to this as Makar’s best season?

Your “analysis” is mostly a shell game that’s really about having better C depth.

I don't think you understand the analysis, it's comparing Hughes and Makar away from their elite centres, not with them.

Hughes with the Canucks 3rd and 4th line this season is as good at puck possession as Makar with MacKinnon, not Hughes with Miller and Pettersson. Hughes is actually better away from Miller and Pettersson.

Additionally, last season, not only was Ross Colton statistically much better away from Makar, but Colton was a more effective player than Makar was, when Makar was on the ice and Colton wasn't, even when you include Makar's time playing with MacKinnon. If you exclude Makar's time with MacKinnon, then his stats go down to roughly 44% average.

Compared to, let's say Teddy Bleuger, who's advanced stats go from about 40%, to about 57% when Hughes is on the ice while Colton benefited drastically from Makar being on the bench.

I disagree that my analysis of "making others better" is daft when the award in question is the one for highest importance to their team. Neither Makar or MacKinnon are single handedly carrying the Avalanche like Hughes does for the Canucks.

 

[CanadasTeam99]

Hughes isn't even in the top 5 so far (which is crazy). NHL writers don't really vote for true Hart winners. They look at the EN king (who has less ES goals than Jeff Skinner) and see he has 60 points. Doesn't matter that he plays with Makar.

Kaprizov is 2nd despite being injured a lot.

Helly and Hughes didn't even make the top 5. Hilarious list.

 

[maroon 6]

Nah Soucy is hot garbage this year by every metric.

Myers isnt a top 4 dman on any playoff team in the league.

Soucy and Myers should be 4 and 5 with Hughes and Hronek being 1 and 2. Team should have a number 3 guy. With Hronek out Soucy and Myers being the 2 and 3, its not surprising that they’re struggling.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I don't think you understand the analysis, it's comparing Hughes and Makar away from their elite centres, not with them.

Hughes with the Canucks 3rd and 4th line this season is as good at puck possession as Makar with MacKinnon, not Hughes with Miller and Pettersson. Hughes is actually better away from Miller and Pettersson.

Additionally, last season, not only was Ross Colton statistically much better away from Makar, but Colton was a more effective player than Makar was, when Makar was on the ice and Colton wasn't, even when you include Makar's time playing with MacKinnon. If you exclude Makar's time with MacKinnon, then his stats go down to roughly 44% average.

View attachment 960488

Compared to, let's say Teddy Bleuger, who's advanced stats go from about 40%, to about 57% when Hughes is on the ice while Colton benefited drastically from Makar being on the bench.

View attachment 960489

I disagree that my analysis of "making others better" is daft when the award in question is the one for highest importance to their team. Neither Makar or MacKinnon are single handedly carrying the Avalanche like Hughes does for the Canucks.

Naturally. Ha ha.

 

[geebster]

Not sure why Makar is being discussed in the thread right now. This is a thread about the Hart and surely Makar isnt in the discussion for "most valuable player to their team" when he isnt even the most valuable player on his own team this year.

Just to humour the Norris discussion:
I'd argue the gap between Hughes and Makar is as big as it was 3 years ago when it went the other way. Makar carries the puck less, controls the game less, is extremely dependent on a teammate to produce (Mackinnon), and his actual production is less too. Not to mention Hughes produces more than him while being the number one option with multiple people chasing him, while Makar hasnt produced without Mackinnon (the only time he would be the number one option out there). @Rowlet already posted the data with and without Mackinnon, but ill just throw in the same data in a different format below to outline this. Makar hits better, has a better shot, and he PKs (but isnt great at it). They are CLEARLY 1 and 2 in the world and its great to see them both in the league at the same time, but just like 3 years ago, one of them is better than the other and its obvious. As much as I wanted Hughes to get credit for how good he was 3-4 years ago, he wasnt as good as Makar and Nucks fans who wanted to make that case were out to lunch for pushing it on the main boards and on social media. Its now the opposite. It could change, heck with Hughes' injury he might slow down, he hasnt yet but he plays way too much and is at risk of a reinjury or it getting worse. Makar could also go on fire again and have enough of a points lead that it makes up for everything else. Right now though its clear.

As for the Hart:
As I said in the other thread, IF Hart voting was on the actual definition of the Hart (player most valuable to their team) then Hughes is a shoe in for it. As is Hellebuyck. But the Hart is never voted on by its actual criteria. It usually goes to whoever is the most exciting player or has the best story. It always goes to either the Rocket or the Art Ross winner. So right now Draisaitl is probably leading, whoever has the most points or goals (if they have a big enough lead) will get it. Goalies and defense having their own awards in the Vezina and Norris seems to make the Hart the best forward award. One could argue forwards get the Art Ross, but technically everyone is eligible for that award. By the strict wording of if I'd give it to Hughes right now, but theres still half a season to go.

 

[qc14]

Hughes (and Hellebuyck) should be the clear 1 and 2 for the Hart -- by both the "best player" and the "most valuable to their team" definitions -- but unfortunately voters think they are only allowed to vote for forwards for some reason

 

[archangel2]

If Hughes is in the Hart conversation than so are Maker and Werenski.

 

[Regal]

If Hughes is in the Hart conversation than so are Maker and Werenski.

Werenski, sure. Makar isn’t as valuable to the Avs as Hughes is to Van though even if they’re similar level players

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

If Hughes is in the Hart conversation than so are Maker and Werenski.

Makar is nowhere close

 

[Jumptheshark]

FYI

Hart is most valuable in the league not just to their team.

FYI-2

If the nucks miss the playoffs he wont be in the discussion--this was a topic a few years and MANY canuck fans made it clear they would die on that hit. Lets see if they have changed their opinion now that their guy is the one being talking about

 

[McFlash97]

Canuck fans clamouring for Hughes to win the Hart is rather funny. Only 2 defenseman in the modern era have won the Hart. Chris Pronger and Bobby Orr. Pronger by default because the league was devout of any scoring talent. Defenseman like Raymond Bourque and Paul Coffey putting up ludicrous puck possession and point totals couldn't win it. But Quinn Hughes apparently with 9 goals past the halfway mark will win it. On a team nowhere near the top of the league. Quinn Hughes is a great defenseman whos puck possession numbers are truly phenomenal this year, but lets be realistic here. The league isn't devout of players putting up phenomenal numbers. He isnt winning the Hart unless he goes ballistic and puts up 110 + points is over +40 and plays at least 75 plus games and the Canucks shoot up the standings.

 

[Regal]

FYI

Hart is most valuable in the league not just to their team.

It is and it isn’t. It tends to go to who is considered the best player but when things are close, team situation starts to come into play.

 

[Rowlet]

FYI

Hart is most valuable in the league not just to their team.

FYI-2

If the nucks miss the playoffs he wont be in the discussion--this was a topic a few years and MANY canuck fans made it clear they would die on that hit. Lets see if they have changed their opinion now that their guy is the one being talking about

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team."

NHL Hart Memorial Trophy Winners | NHL.com

Regular-season MVPs since 1924

www.nhl.com

 

[dmac7719]

Forget everything else. I don't really care. But every 'major news source' actually has Hughes 1 and Makar 2. And if they don't, they're probably based in Denver.

Guy you responded to never showed his work, so I'll do it for him.

NHL awards watch: Leon Draisaitl leads a fascinating MVP field

Draisaitl has been the league’s best player this season. Will it be enough to win the Hart Trophy this year?

www.nytimes.com

https://thehockeynews.com/news/nhl-norris-trophy-watch-makar-hughes-and-werenski-leading-field-of-top-d-men

Trophy Tracker: Makar of Avalanche choice for Norris as best defenseman | NHL.com

Quinn Hughes, Werenski also among favorites at halfway point of season by NHL.com panel

www.nhl.com

How about a little odds tracking: https://www.sportsbookreview.com/picks/nhl/norris-trophy-odds/

Some super biased Denver sports area media there.

Meanwhile, all I could find for Hughes is Norris Trophy Rankings: Werenski making a push
And come on, the Score, that's a pretty biased media source right there.

So I am interested in seeing all these media sources that have Hughes #1 that you claim there are.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Guy you responded to never showed his work, so I'll do it for him.

NHL awards watch: Leon Draisaitl leads a fascinating MVP field

Draisaitl has been the league’s best player this season. Will it be enough to win the Hart Trophy this year?

www.nytimes.com

https://thehockeynews.com/news/nhl-norris-trophy-watch-makar-hughes-and-werenski-leading-field-of-top-d-men

Trophy Tracker: Makar of Avalanche choice for Norris as best defenseman | NHL.com

Quinn Hughes, Werenski also among favorites at halfway point of season by NHL.com panel

www.nhl.com

How about a little odds tracking: Norris Trophy Odds 2024-25: Makar Increases Lead Over Hughes, Werenski in the Mix

Some super biased Denver sports area media there.

Meanwhile, all I could find for Hughes is Norris Trophy Rankings: Werenski making a push
And come on, the Score, that's a pretty biased media source right there.

So I am interested in seeing all these media sources that have Hughes #1 that you claim there are.

I wouldn't have said "every major news source" because that's a broad-brush comment that's just begging to be refuted. I use my eyes and basic stats to judge the players. Hughes is not only better than Makar for the second year in a row, but he has widened the gap.

 

[tfwnogf]

Canuck fans clamouring for Hughes to win the Hart is rather funny. Only 2 defenseman in the modern era have won the Hart. Chris Pronger and Bobby Orr. Pronger by default because the league was devout of any scoring talent. Defenseman like Raymond Bourque and Paul Coffey putting up ludicrous puck possession and point totals couldn't win it. But Quinn Hughes apparently with 9 goals past the halfway mark will win it. On a team nowhere near the top of the league. Quinn Hughes is a great defenseman whos puck possession numbers are truly phenomenal this year, but lets be realistic here. The league isn't devout of players putting up phenomenal numbers. He isnt winning the Hart unless he goes ballistic and puts up 110 + points is over +40 and plays at least 75 plus games and the Canucks shoot up the standings.

This here is precisely why he WON'T win it, regardless if he carries the Canucks to the playoffs or not. I don't think voters look at defensemen to win unless, like you said there's no forwards who are good enough to win it like with Pronger, or is just in another stratosphere like Orr. Hughes would need 45+ goals with many game winners to even be in the conversation. The forward group is strong this year so he would need to be spectacular.