Quebec City trying to keep the flame alive

[aqib]

How? Was there someone from QC bidding on AZ?

There wasn't an open bid. No one other than SLC was offered the team. Betmann first approached Mureulo after Utah approved funding for NHL and MLB teams. That's not a coincidence.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The modern immigration movement started in the mid 1990's - and those demographics, at least the kids are in their late 20s at the very latest and they're choosing basketball and football and soccer. The most popular sport among the youth is soccer. 10 years from now, they'll be the largest generation.

What's this "modern immigration movement" - immigration has been fairly steady for decades, and it's been decades since the majority of immigrants were from Europe (and even in the post-war years majority of european immigrants were from non-hockey nations).

Canada immigration statistics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(the one thing you'll notice is a real up-tick since 2016 when Trudeau came into power, but let's not go there)

The most popular youth sport being soccer has also been true for a long time - it's a cheap and easy sport to put kids into. It's very possible though to play soccer but be a hockey fan

 

[Yukon Joe]

There wasn't an open bid. No one other than SLC was offered the team. Betmann first approached Mureulo after Utah approved funding for NHL and MLB teams. That's not a coincidence.

So that last two relocations (Atlanta, Phoenix) have not been an open bid - they get negotiated behind the scenes. And the lst expansion (Seattle) was similar - expansion was only open to Seattle.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

There wasn't an open bid. No one other than SLC was offered the team. Betmann first approached Mureulo after Utah approved funding for NHL and MLB teams. That's not a coincidence.

This is all an assumption. No idea what was going on behind closed doors. Sounds right, though.

But this has nothing to do with my question. Even if all of that is true, how was QC screwed? I haven't seen anything to suggest anyone there would bid on relocation or expansion.

 

[BMN]

Even if all of that is true, how was QC screwed?

I think the implication was probably more that the QC fans were screwed (AKA "you're capable of doing what this fanbase is doing but will not be given the chance), not so much that there was any legally unfair treatment of a party wanting a hockey team. It's up to interpretation whether it's the league or the power brokers of QC that were doing the screwing (or both).

 

[Melrose Munch]

What's this "modern immigration movement" - immigration has been fairly steady for decades, and it's been decades since the majority of immigrants were from Europe (and even in the post-war years majority of european immigrants were from non-hockey nations).

Canada immigration statistics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

(the one thing you'll notice is a real up-tick since 2016 when Trudeau came into power, but let's not go there)

The most popular youth sport being soccer has also been true for a long time - it's a cheap and easy sport to put kids into. It's very possible though to play soccer but be a hockey fan

I mean the general trend since the late 1970s. It's more the double in general, but the real point is that those kids are not really getting involved in hockey. That wouldn't be an issue if kids who's families have been here forever were, but they aren't either. It seems like the sport needs to bring costs down.

There wasn't an open bid. No one other than SLC was offered the team. Betmann first approached Mureulo after Utah approved funding for NHL and MLB teams. That's not a coincidence.

Because it was an emergency, Houston wasn't going to pay 1.2 billion for an asset worth half that, you know this.

Because Montreal is likely never getting either of those.

They'll get the MLB once the Manfred tires of Tampa and St.Pete...

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

I think the implication was probably more that the QC fans were screwed (AKA "you're capable of doing what this fanbase is doing but will not be given the chance), not so much that there was any legally unfair treatment of a party wanting a hockey team. It's up to interpretation whether it's the league or the power brokers of QC that were doing the screwing (or both).

Thanks for the clarification.

Still don't understand, though. Winnipeg, Seattle, and Vegas accomplished mass ST sales. I'm sure Utah will and I'm sure QC, Atlanta, Houston, San Diego, and others would too. Not sure how QC's fans were "screwed".

 

[Voight]

I mean the general trend since the late 1970s. It's more the double in general, but the real point is that those kids are not really getting involved in hockey. That wouldn't be an issue if kids who's families have been here forever were, but they aren't either. It seems like the sport needs to bring costs down.


Because it was an emergency, Houston wasn't going to pay 1.2 billion for an asset worth half that, you know this.


They'll get the MLB once the Manfred tires of Tampa and St.Pete...

No they won't, unless they decide to build a modern MLB quality stadium.

 

[dj4aces]

I think the implication was probably more that the QC fans were screwed (AKA "you're capable of doing what this fanbase is doing but will not be given the chance), not so much that there was any legally unfair treatment of a party wanting a hockey team. It's up to interpretation whether it's the league or the power brokers of QC that were doing the screwing (or both).

Thanks for the clarification.

Still don't understand, though. Winnipeg, Seattle, and Vegas accomplished mass ST sales. I'm sure Utah will and I'm sure QC, Atlanta, Houston, San Diego, and others would too. Not sure how QC's fans were "screwed".

I would argue that QC fans feel screwed over by the league, assuming the Coyotes were exclusively offered to Smith and no one else. But that defies logic. People can feel screwed all they want, but if there's no one to own a franchise (and all signs point to PKP either quietly seeking investors still, or is no longer interested in acquiring a franchise), there's no team in QC. It's pretty cut-and-dry.

PKP needs investors. If those fans know someone with a ton of money and the desire to bring the NHL back to QC, by all means. Tell them to chip in. I'd give anything to see Atlanta 3.0 play Quebec City 3.0 -- bonus points if it's playoff hockey -- but he needs investors, otherwise this just isn't happening.

 

[aqib]

This is all an assumption. No idea what was going on behind closed doors. Sounds right, though.

But this has nothing to do with my question. Even if all of that is true, how was QC screwed? I haven't seen anything to suggest anyone there would bid on relocation or expansion.

Its not an assumption. Its a data-driven hypothesis. Just putting together the timeline of events that we've witnessed publicly (Utah did the legislation end of February) and what Betmann said in his press conferences (he approached the Coyotes on March 6) it just lines up. Now did Bettman sit there and say "oh there is a bunch of money there. Lets get in before MLB"? I don't know. That's my theory. I just don't think the timeline is a coincidence. Also, back when the Predators were created, it was a priority that they start before the Titans got there (they weren't supposed to start until 1999 but they left Houston early because they weren't drawing and then didn't draw in Memphis their first year). So I am putting together when the legislation happened, when he called the Coyotes, and the fact that in the past they want to get in before another league. Now maybe I'm putting 2 ad 2 together and getting 5.

So that last two relocations (Atlanta, Phoenix) have not been an open bid - they get negotiated behind the scenes. And the lst expansion (Seattle) was similar - expansion was only open to Seattle.

EDIT: I realize you probably meant Phoenix-to-Utah. Winnipeg-to-Phoenix was different. Phoenix was an open bid. The team was for sale and the Burke/Gluckstern bought them and started with Minnesota then went shopping after that didn't pan out. Atlanta, you are correct. Bill Daly said other cities inquired but only Winnipeg was allowed to bid. Conversely Hartford shopped around before picking Carolina.

Because it was an emergency, Houston wasn't going to pay 1.2 billion for an asset worth half that, you know this.

Houston (under Alexander) wasn't willing to pay $500M, Houston wasn't willing to pay $600M (under Feritta). Which is why I call BS on all the rumors that Houston is interested in expansion. The only scenario I see is someone other than Feritta deciding to build their own arena. I floated a question about a suburban county but all the Houstonians here have said that wasn't realistic.
The point is no one else was contacted about the Coyotes. They could have lined up other bidders. Utah was the only place Bettman talked to. It was only an "emergency" because they waited until March 6 to contact the Coyotes.

 

[Salsero1]

Its not an assumption. Its a data-driven hypothesis. Just putting together the timeline of events that we've witnessed publicly (Utah did the legislation end of February) and what Betmann said in his press conferences (he approached the Coyotes on March 6) it just lines up. Now did Bettman sit there and say "oh there is a bunch of money there. Lets get in before MLB"? I don't know. That's my theory. I just don't think the timeline is a coincidence. Also, back when the Predators were created, it was a priority that they start before the Titans got there (they weren't supposed to start until 1999 but they left Houston early because they weren't drawing and then didn't draw in Memphis their first year). So I am putting together when the legislation happened, when he called the Coyotes, and the fact that in the past they want to get in before another league. Now maybe I'm putting 2 ad 2 together and getting 5.



Phoenix was an open bid. The team was for sale and the Burke/Gluckstern bought them and started with Minnesota then went shopping after that didn't pan out. Atlanta, you are correct. Bill Daly said other cities inquired but only Winnipeg was allowed to bid.


Houston (under Alexander) wasn't willing to pay $500M, Houston wasn't willing to pay $600M (under Feritta). Which is why I call BS on all the rumors that Houston is interested in expansion. The only scenario I see is someone other than Feritta deciding to build their own arena. I floated a question about a suburban county but all the Houstonians here have said that wasn't realistic.
The point is no one else was contacted about the Coyotes. They could have lined up other bidders. Utah was the only place Bettman talked to. It was only an "emergency" because they waited until March 6 to contact the Coyotes.

So, confirmation bias? Got it.

 

[aqib]

So, confirmation bias? Got it.

I laid out the logic behind it.

 

[CanadienShark]

You people in Quebec need to move on. It’s never going to happen.

I'm sure you were told that about girls too, so that's why you moved to Pattaya.

 

[dj4aces]

Houston (under Alexander) wasn't willing to pay $500M, Houston wasn't willing to pay $600M (under Feritta). Which is why I call BS on all the rumors that Houston is interested in expansion. The only scenario I see is someone other than Feritta deciding to build their own arena. I floated a question about a suburban county but all the Houstonians here have said that wasn't realistic.
The point is no one else was contacted about the Coyotes. They could have lined up other bidders. Utah was the only place Bettman talked to. It was only an "emergency" because they waited until March 6 to contact the Coyotes.

On Houston, there are rumored to be multiple groups (Friedman has stated on 32 Thoughts that there's at least one other group) there trying to bring the NHL in, but Fertitta is really the only one with a proper facility in the area to play in. It very well might be those multiple groups with interest that has spurred Fertitta's interest. Knowing there are people willing to pay the full price, rather than him trying to negotiate with the league, can always be a factor.

 

[aqib]

On Houston, there are rumored to be multiple groups (Friedman has stated on 32 Thoughts that there's at least one other group) there trying to bring the NHL in, but Fertitta is really the only one with a proper facility in the area to play in. It very well might be those multiple groups with interest that has spurred Fertitta's interest. Knowing there are people willing to pay the full price, rather than him trying to negotiate with the league, can always be a factor.

Well you have the lease issue. HEre is the lease: https://www.houstonsports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Toyota_Center_-_Arena_Lease.pdf

Basically they wouldn't get anything other than gameday revenue. So if another group wants to buy a team they have to build their own arena.

 

[dj4aces]

Well you have the lease issue. HEre is the lease: https://www.houstonsports.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Toyota_Center_-_Arena_Lease.pdf

Basically they wouldn't get anything other than gameday revenue. So if another group wants to buy a team they have to build their own arena.

Well yes, of course. But you kinda skipped over my point in an effort to reiterate yours, while also ignoring the fact that there are zero suburban locations that make sense.

Fertitta has been saying for years that the cost of an expansion franchise is too high, just as Alexander did before him... but if others are willing to pay that cost, it illustrates that position is nonsense. The league may want to be in the largest market without a NHL franchise, but they don't have to be, and I think it's a position Fertitta is coming to understand.

While the simplest answers are oftentimes the best ones, sometimes one will find a case where one entity is playing 4D chess while another is playing hopscotch. I think this is one of those times, and as a result of this realization, I think Fertitta is now trying to learn the rules of 4D chess.

 

[aqib]

Well yes, of course. But you kinda skipped over my point in an effort to reiterate yours, while also ignoring the fact that there are zero suburban locations that make sense.

Fertitta has been saying for years that the cost of an expansion franchise is too high, just as Alexander did before him... but if others are willing to pay that cost, it illustrates that position is nonsense. The league may want to be in the largest market without a NHL franchise, but they don't have to be, and I think it's a position Fertitta is coming to understand.

While the simplest answers are oftentimes the best ones, sometimes one will find a case where one entity is playing 4D chess while another is playing hopscotch. I think this is one of those times, and as a result of this realization, I think Fertitta is now trying to learn the rules of 4D chess.

I didn't say it would have to be a suburban location. I asked about it a long time ago on this board and locals said nothing works. Whether its another part of the City or County if its someone other than Feritta they need their own building. Unless the lease is redone as part of any renovation deal.

Alexander didn't decide the expansion fee was too high. He tried to get a team in the late 90s expansion then tried to steal the Oilers. By the time the Vegas expansion happened he was already on his way out as owner.

If Fertitta was willing to pay full freight he would have gotten the Coyotes. Now this is the same guy who got outbid for the Rockets in the 90s by $5 million (he offered $80 million when Alexander offered $85 million) and then had to pay $2.2 billion. So you would think he would have learned his lesson. However, so far we haven't seen anything to indicate that is the case.

 

[dj4aces]

I didn't say it would have to be a suburban location. I asked about it a long time ago on this board and locals said nothing works. Whether its another part of the City or County if its someone other than Feritta they need their own building. Unless the lease is redone as part of any renovation deal.

No... you didn't. But the arrangement with Harris County, if I recall correctly, basically ensures it'd have to be a location outside the county, which would pretty much put any new arena outside the city. If this is true, then there's zero options other than for a prospective owner to agree with the lease as it's laid out, or for Fertitta to own the team.

This, combined with the feeling that the NHL wants to be in Houston, is what would make Fertitta think he could negotiate with the league to acquire a NHL franchise at a lower expansion fee. But if there are multiple groups who would pay full price and potentially accept the lease agreement to play in the Toyota Center, it would only make sense for Fertitta to accept the league's expansion fee and own the team himself. I think he's finally starting to realize that expansion fees are only going up, and if there are groups willing to own the team at a disadvantage by way of that lease, there's no reason at all while he shouldn't get on board.

 

[jigglysquishy]

When did this turn into the Houston thread

 

[aqib]

No... you didn't. But the arrangement with Harris County, if I recall correctly, basically ensures it'd have to be a location outside the county, which would pretty much put any new arena outside the city. If this is true, then there's zero options other than for a prospective owner to agree with the lease as it's laid out, or for Fertitta to own the team.

This, combined with the feeling that the NHL wants to be in Houston, is what would make Fertitta think he could negotiate with the league to acquire a NHL franchise at a lower expansion fee. But if there are multiple groups who would pay full price and potentially accept the lease agreement to play in the Toyota Center, it would only make sense for Fertitta to accept the league's expansion fee and own the team himself. I think he's finally starting to realize that expansion fees are only going up, and if there are groups willing to own the team at a disadvantage by way of that lease, there's no reason at all while he shouldn't get on board.

Has he said anything to that affect or is that just speculation?

 

[dj4aces]

Has he said anything to that affect or is that just speculation?

The idea that Fertitta has come to realize that others would be willing to pay the full expansion fee? Purely speculation. It would make sense though, otherwise the league wouldn't be talking to him (as of the 8 April meeting that Atlanta's Krause also attended).

I've been wrong before, so it's also entirely possible that I'm wrong here too. But if Fertitta still refuses to pay full price at this point, the league isn't going to beg.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Because Montreal is likely never getting either of those.

That may be true but my point is that QC is never getting an NHL team again.

 

[Voight]

That may be true but my point is that QC is never getting an NHL team again.

It's more likely than Montreal getting an NBA or MLB team.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

It's more likely than Montreal getting an NBA or MLB team.

Silver named Montreal and they have an arena ready to go should they be able to work it out with Evenko/Molson. Why would they never get a team?

I know you tried to argue language before but then you went quiet when multiple people corrected you on that front.

 

[tucker3434]

It's more likely than Montreal getting an NBA or MLB team.

I don’t know. The Expos have kind of a Nordiques international draw but Montreal is a legitimately pro-sized city.