"Puck Posession" vs "Dump and Chase"

[forecheck]

I know everyone is drinking the kool aid mixed up by KD and served by his new Coach SK in regards to a "Puck Possession " type of game . I think its a very tough system for players to play and very difficult for players to learn when to possess and when to move it to avoid turn overs in dangerous areas ( NZ )( DZ), and to retrieve it in an area where yo can be more creative. Very tough to teach this a quarter way into the season.

Here is a very interesting article supported by numbers of the value of " Place and Chase" hockey .

Dump-Ins: The Offensive & Defensive Effects of a Trend on the Rise - The Point Data-driven hockey storytelling that gets right to the point.

 

[deletethis]

Islanders forward Cal Clutterbuck spoke about the differences in Trotz’s approach compared to past coaches, saying –
“More quality dump-ins and a lot more speed on the puck. There’s more of a 5-man unit forecheck going on to try to take away other options. If D-man looks up and he’s got half a second and he’s got a guy barreling down on him and he doesn’t see much, chances are it’s going of the glass or around the boards and you get a chance to get it back.”

Our hockey guys see the smartest players knowing exactly how to make these plays and think every player is capable/willing to make these type of plays. That's the thing about dump-ins: a bad dump-in still makes the opposition start from the farthest possible distance.

 

[DarkKnight]

Thanks for sharing that, really interesting.

This quote stuck out for me, because people treat Trotz like he's a god around here:

Reigning coach-of-the-year Barry Trotz –

“It’s all puck management. That’s where analytics, pure possession, entry numbers doesn’t really translate. The math works for the concept of making sure you put the puck in the right areas if you can’t make a play. So, you do have, maybe a little less possession numbers but you guard yourself against counters, you guard yourself against the quick-strike, transition type things but you still maintain possession.”

The question for the Leafs, do we have the type of team to play this way? Our new focus on possession seems to play to our strengths, that's how this team was built. Dubas has a philosophy and for the moment we are living and dying with this team as assembled. Is it winning hockey, particularly when it gets even closer in the playoffs? Sure looks a big QUESTION mark right now.

 

[Hclass47]

To play the possession game you need players that are more cerebral. quick thinking and high iq. Guys who are willing to hold on to the puck for a few moments longer to see the ice and what options are available. (Keefe system)

In comparison the dump and chase can be utilized by anyone effectively but more effective with speed and size to create turnovers. (Babs system)

This team was built for keefe. right now it seems at times players are trying to do to much. Entering the zone is one thing but lanes and gaps close quickly, players have to recognize this faster And protect the puck or put it in a place that gives them a chance to retrieve it. This is why there is an emphasis on continued skill development with the new coach in practice. Puck carriers need to become more comfortable carrying the puck oppose to handling it like a grenade and always dumping it in. Teams will and have already begun to game plan for this new offence. This is where individual skill takes over...

 

[WTFMAN99]

Ideally you have a team that is capable of attacking with a dump and chase as well as puck possession and controlled entries, you're less predictable that way.

The problem is our team is built only to do one thing. The dump, chase and grind is what is needed at times in the playoffs.

People will say "oh our team isn't really built that way" - maybe whoever built the team is an idiot.

 

[ACC1224]

Not an either/or kind of thing.
Good teams can and do play both styles at times.

 

[Pookie]

Not an either/or kind of thing.
Good teams can and do play both styles at times.

It can also vary by shift.

Expectations on top end players is different than your 4th line rookies.

 

[deletethis]

Not an either/or kind of thing.
Good teams can and do play both styles at times.

Same with stretch passes.

 

[Crysis]

Thanks for sharing that, really interesting.

This quote stuck out for me, because people treat Trotz like he's a god around here:

Reigning coach-of-the-year Barry Trotz –

“It’s all puck management. That’s where analytics, pure possession, entry numbers doesn’t really translate. The math works for the concept of making sure you put the puck in the right areas if you can’t make a play. So, you do have, maybe a little less possession numbers but you guard yourself against counters, you guard yourself against the quick-strike, transition type things but you still maintain possession.”

The question for the Leafs, do we have the type of team to play this way? Our new focus on possession seems to play to our strengths, that's how this team was built. Dubas has a philosophy and for the moment we are living and dying with this team as assembled. Is it winning hockey, particularly when it gets even closer in the playoffs? Sure looks a big QUESTION mark right now.

No.

 

[hockeyes]

Not an either/or kind of thing.
Good teams can and do play both styles at times.

I agree and the Leafs are capable of both when they commit to skating as a 5 man unit. The problem of course is the Leafs struggle to get on the same page and start standing around and getting to areas way too slow.

 

[Mess]

Not an either/or kind of thing.
Good teams can and do play both styles at times.

Very true, but player personnel often dictates playing style.

A well rounded team built for all styles would tend to be more successful.

To me our Leafs seemed limited and more pigeon holed to play a more skating with puck possession style, then one that dumps the puck in and then successful outmuscles and wins puck battles to get it back again through size, strength and physical contact. IMO

That is why it seems the new system tends to lean more to keeping the puck and not changing possession and trying to regain it.

 

[Clark4Ever]

I think we can excel in a possession based system. My only gripe is when players try to dangle out of dangerous situations in their own end. They have to remember that there are still times when chipping it out off the boards is the best decision.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

These guys are a 20 th place team trending the wrong way again under a new coach. This is coming on to the players very quickly here. I hope they are prepared for it because they are going to get everything they have coming to them from this fanbase.

Montreal passed us in the standings last night after just 1 win in nine games. Matthews is lazy and non committed to working hard and calls out the team?.. Big giant red flag came up for me on that.

The system doesn’t matter with this group. They are to soft in their approach and can’t find the guts to fight through stuff when adversity strikes.

A loss tonight and its going to get ugly again. Trading players will soon be the only answer and i think moving defensemen that to a man have no character is where it needs to start.

Morgan Rielly has been a complete joke. No effort. I would be willing to trade this group out heavily if this weak effortless, carelessness is all we have to look forward to.

This group might cost us a playoff. Not acceptable and when a few teams make up games they could push our standing down to 25th or 26 th in the league.??

Systems onnly work their best with smart players.

 

[ACC1224]

I think we can excel in a possession based system. My only gripe is when players try to dangle out of dangerous situations in their own end. They have to remember that there are still times when chipping it out off the boards is the best decision.

Relying too much on 'excel' is what got them into this mess!

 

[GobigorGohome]

Our hockey guys see the smartest players knowing exactly how to make these plays and think every player is capable/willing to make these type of plays. That's the thing about dump-ins: a bad dump-in still makes the opposition start from the farthest possible distance.

It's like downing the ball at the 5 yard line

 

[Morgs]

It's been proven that entering the zone with possession creates DOUBLE the amount of offense as a dump and chase. Not only that, but entering the zone and completing a pass increases the number even further.

Dump and chase is fine; especially when you have players like Hyman, but it's got to be used situationally with the mentality being "enter the zone with possession.... unless".

 

[hotpaws]

you can do either depending on the situation and who has the puck on there stick

also depending on whether your leading or trailing as well as what point in the game

consistently trying to make high risk entries regardless of the situation isn't a recipe for success imo

 

[Zizzzzy]

Last two games ive noticed we have reverted back to a lot more tip ins and have not been winning those battles to get the puck back.

 

[notDatsyuk]

To play the possession game you need players that are more cerebral. quick thinking and high iq. Guys who are willing to hold on to the puck for a few moments longer to see the ice and what options are available. (Keefe system)

In comparison the dump and chase can be utilized by anyone effectively but more effective with speed and size to create turnovers. (Babs system)

This team was built for keefe. right now it seems at times players are trying to do to much. Entering the zone is one thing but lanes and gaps close quickly, players have to recognize this faster And protect the puck or put it in a place that gives them a chance to retrieve it. This is why there is an emphasis on continued skill development with the new coach in practice. Puck carriers need to become more comfortable carrying the puck oppose to handling it like a grenade and always dumping it in. Teams will and have already begun to game plan for this new offence. This is where individual skill takes over...

While it's true that anyone can 'dump and chase' (one if my old-timer friends has a t-shirt that says 'we play dump and chase' on the front, and 'without the chase' on the back), for it to be an effective system you need smart, hardworking players, like Clutterbuck, Cizikas, Komarov, and Hyman. Islanders have lots of those players; we have one.

Other teams play us tight at our blueline and all through the neutral zone, knowing that if we dump it in, they usually end up with it.

 

[Martin Skoula]

All anyone wanted was Babcock to have literally any sort of viable plan B. The dump and chase has its time and place, it just can't be your only breakout plan with a roster not built exclusively for it.

 

[crump]

Nothing happens until you shoot the puck though. I find they are trying too hard to get a perfect shot. Sometimes you need a goal like Dermott last night, or rebounds. I haven't seen many chances off of rebounds. More shots from the point too.

 

[CelticDruid]

Quality shots around the net have dropped off as well.

 

[Stephen]

It's been proven that entering the zone with possession creates DOUBLE the amount of offense as a dump and chase. Not only that, but entering the zone and completing a pass increases the number even further.

Dump and chase is fine; especially when you have players like Hyman, but it's got to be used situationally with the mentality being "enter the zone with possession.... unless".

Maybe it creates double the offense if you count all the turnovers and offense generated on the counter attack.

Dump and chase works well if you want to make it harder for the opposition to exit their zone. Their defensemen have to turn around to engage in a puck retrieval which makes them subject to turnovers and hits on the forecheck, which adds wear and tear to the opposition. There’s an attrition angle that you’re simply ignoring by not engaging in these tactics.

 

[Menzinger]

Dump and chase CAN be an effective tactic when ypu have the right roster for it (ie heavy forwards like LA did during their cup runs).

With the Leafs you want to keep on the stick of Nylander/Marmer/Matthews/Taavres ect. These guys arent grinders and never will be.

 

[saltming]

Thanks for sharing that, really interesting.

This quote stuck out for me, because people treat Trotz like he's a god around here:

Reigning coach-of-the-year Barry Trotz –

“It’s all puck management. That’s where analytics, pure possession, entry numbers doesn’t really translate. The math works for the concept of making sure you put the puck in the right areas if you can’t make a play. So, you do have, maybe a little less possession numbers but you guard yourself against counters, you guard yourself against the quick-strike, transition type things but you still maintain possession.”

The question for the Leafs, do we have the type of team to play this way? Our new focus on possession seems to play to our strengths, that's how this team was built. Dubas has a philosophy and for the moment we are living and dying with this team as assembled. Is it winning hockey, particularly when it gets even closer in the playoffs? Sure looks a big QUESTION mark right now.

The team has to learn to play both ways and br able to adjust from shift to shift. I always felt that was what Babcock was trying to teach them.
Imho dump and chase is vital in hockey period. Possession also has its place, but to be really good a team has to be good at both.
I recall canada winning a lot of gold metals and they were all on the backbone of dump and chase.