GDT: PS game 4: Sharks vs Utah 7pm streamed on sharks.nhl.com

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Hodge

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Apr 27, 2021
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Hitting the mark twice in ten seasons is still not consistent no matter where you move the goalposts. Averaging that amount for a four year gap that doesn't include his most recent season still only has him at 4 seasons of that production for 10 seasons. That's not consistent. The Goodrow that played for New York last year and ended up -13 probably would've been -50 on the Sharks last year too. But then again, why does +/- matter here? What point is it inevitably going to fail to prove?
4 of the last 5 seasons sounds pretty consistent to me. Why should anyone care what Goodrow was doing 7 or 8 years ago on the Sharks 4th line?

If we're going to get outscored 5v5 no matter who's on that third line it makes much more sense to ice guys like Goodrow and Kunin who can contribute in other ways like PK, vet leadership and toughness over Gushchin who is useless if he doesn't score.
 

Pinkfloyd

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4 of the last 5 seasons sounds pretty consistent to me. Why should anyone care what Goodrow was doing 7 or 8 years ago on the Sharks 4th line?

If we're going to get outscored 5v5 no matter who's on that third line it makes much more sense to ice guys like Goodrow and Kunin who can contribute in other ways like PK, vet leadership and toughness over Gushchin who is useless if he doesn't score.
Where three of them he didn't actually hit 30 points? Yeah, I'm sure it does sound consistent to you. As for the second bit, no it doesn't. One because neither Goodrow nor Kunin actually contribute well on the PK and because a rebuilding team should be looking for ways to extract value out of what they're playing whether it's through trades or developing young players. Gushchin has a much better chance at developing into a solid middle six winger that can produce that would have more value than two ineffective veterans that don't defend well at all nor produce much of anything. Let's be clear, Goodrow and Kunin are useless regardless of what role they're put in.
 

Hodge

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Where three of them he didn't actually hit 30 points? Yeah, I'm sure it does sound consistent to you. As for the second bit, no it doesn't. One because neither Goodrow nor Kunin actually contribute well on the PK and because a rebuilding team should be looking for ways to extract value out of what they're playing whether it's through trades or developing young players. Gushchin has a much better chance at developing into a solid middle six winger that can produce that would have more value than two ineffective veterans that don't defend well at all nor produce much of anything.
We don't need Goodrow or Kunin to actually be good on the PK. They just need to do it.

I don't give a shit about inflating Gushchin's trade value by gifting him minutes he doesn't deserve, as if we need another 4th round pick in 3 years that badly or as if every other GM is a moron who wouldn't immediately see through that transparent attempt at a pump and dump scheme.

Let's be clear, Goodrow and Kunin are useless regardless of what role they're put in.
Let's be clear, that's just your opinion and the people building the roster and setting the lineups disagree with you.
 

mogambomoroo

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I wasn't big fan of having both Goodrow and Kunin here with their price tags and what they provide.
But there is slight chance that they could work out okay, if they find their roles together or separately. They have NHL experience, so that's worth something and it's important that they play the role that they know and not get mixed with the top 6.
It's going to take time to have a decent and complimentary bottom 6, but right now at least there is veteran presence to start. This is year was never meant to be perfect, it's baby steps towards success.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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We don't need Goodrow or Kunin to actually be good on the PK. They just need to do it.

I don't give a shit about inflating Gushchin's trade value by gifting him minutes he doesn't deserve, as if we need another 4th round pick in 3 years that badly or as if every other GM is a moron who wouldn't immediately see through that transparent attempt at a pump and dump scheme.


Let's be clear, that's just your opinion and the people building the roster and setting the lineups disagree with you.
Anybody can be brought in to just do it. They just waived Bailey who could be brought back up to just do PK shifts. That's not a real point here. It's unlikely that Goodrow or Kunin will even return a 4th round pick in three years. The people that make the lineups often disagree with an opinion. The numbers show how good those players actually perform. The league is full of managers and coaches who continue to play those types of players despite the evidence. It doesn't make you or them right to continue to make such decisions.
 

Hodge

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Anybody can be brought in to just do it. They just waived Bailey who could be brought back up to just do PK shifts. That's not a real point here. It's unlikely that Goodrow or Kunin will even return a 4th round pick in three years. The people that make the lineups often disagree with an opinion. The numbers show how good those players actually perform. The league is full of managers and coaches who continue to play those types of players despite the evidence. It doesn't make you or them right to continue to make such decisions.
It doesn't make you right just because you've convinced yourself "the numbers" are objective evidence either.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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It doesn't make you right just because you've convinced yourself "the numbers" are objective evidence either.
No it doesn't but I can at least admit that. There's more than objective numbers that go into roster and lineup decisions. You on the other hand have said that none of this even matters which the players, coaches, and managers wouldn't agree with either.
 

gaucholoco3

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Can’t we basically throw out Goodrow’s numbers last year since he had some of the hardest Dzone start percentage in the entire league last year.

When the presidents trophy winner trusted Goodrow with that deployment he is not as big of a negative as people might think on the surface.

Also it doesn’t matter that some teams deploy 3 scoring lines. The Sharks look to have very clear differences between a scoring top 6 and a defensive (throw to the wolves) bottom 6. This is exactly what should happen since the number one goal this season is not to win games it is to develop Celebrini and Smith. Having Goodrow and Kunin get destroyed by other top lines with 70% Dzone starts goes a long way in protecting the rookies while also letting them play with other skilled players.

Gushchin has no place in the Sharks bottom 6.
 

Juxtaposer

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Goodrow averaged 31.5 points per 82 games from 2019 through 2023.

Gushchin would have been -50 on last year's Sharks team. He's already a career -31 in the AHL.
Barclay Goodrow has scored 25 points in a season literally twice in his career but yeah, he's totally a consistent 30-40 player.

I'm fine with Goodrow being a regular player, I'm more than happy to have him on the fourth line. And I've accepted that we're going to see him in the top-9. I just think it's insane to use him on a line that should be scoring 35 points a player when he's never hit 35 points in his career.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Can’t we basically throw out Goodrow’s numbers last year since he had some of the hardest Dzone start percentage in the entire league last year.

When the presidents trophy winner trusted Goodrow with that deployment he is not as big of a negative as people might think on the surface.

Also it doesn’t matter that some teams deploy 3 scoring lines. The Sharks look to have very clear differences between a scoring top 6 and a defensive (throw to the wolves) bottom 6. This is exactly what should happen since the number one goal this season is not to win games it is to develop Celebrini and Smith. Having Goodrow and Kunin get destroyed by other top lines with 70% Dzone starts goes a long way in protecting the rookies while also letting them play with other skilled players.

Gushchin has no place in the Sharks bottom 6.
The Rangers didn't just throw out Goodrow's numbers. Why should the Sharks? He should have to earn his spot like anyone else as he's waiver fodder like a lot of other players they have. It should matter that most teams deploy three scoring lines. If we're throwing out a 3rd line that is just being thrown to the wolves, you're not protecting the other two lines. You're only guaranteeing them that when they do get on the ice, it's going to be a defensive zone draw themselves for the most part. I see no reason not to try and have a 3rd scoring line because the talent that they do have lends to that a lot more than trying a shutdown line that's doomed to fail.
 

Hodge

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Barclay Goodrow has scored 25 points in a season literally twice in his career but yeah, he's totally a consistent 30-40 player.

I'm fine with Goodrow being a regular player, I'm more than happy to have him on the fourth line. And I've accepted that we're going to see him in the top-9. I just think it's insane to use him on a line that should be scoring 35 points a player when he's never hit 35 points in his career.
So it’s Goodrow’s fault there was a global pandemic that limited him to 26 points in 70 games one season and 20 points in 55 (out of a possible 56) games the next? I’m not saying he’s some offensive dynamo but Goodrow has shown the ability to produce at a respectable 3rd line level since leaving SJ which some Sharks fans might not be aware of.
 

Cas

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When the presidents trophy winner trusted Goodrow with that deployment he is not as big of a negative as people might think on the surface.
The President's Trophy winner also waived alternate captain Goodrow. Which judgment of the President's Trophy winner should we accept?
 

Hodge

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The President's Trophy winner also waived alternate captain Goodrow. Which judgment of the President's Trophy winner should we accept?
The one tied to how they deployed the player on the ice rather than how they managed his contract based on salary cap concerns we don’t have.
 

jarr92

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Can’t we basically throw out Goodrow’s numbers last year since he had some of the hardest Dzone start percentage in the entire league last year.

When the presidents trophy winner trusted Goodrow with that deployment he is not as big of a negative as people might think on the surface.

Also it doesn’t matter that some teams deploy 3 scoring lines. The Sharks look to have very clear differences between a scoring top 6 and a defensive (throw to the wolves) bottom 6. This is exactly what should happen since the number one goal this season is not to win games it is to develop Celebrini and Smith. Having Goodrow and Kunin get destroyed by other top lines with 70% Dzone starts goes a long way in protecting the rookies while also letting them play with other skilled players.

Gushchin has no place in the Sharks bottom 6.
I do think Gushchin looks 1/2 a step faster than last year, but I agree with most of this. IMO his potential is about equal to Yanni Gourde, but even Gourde has had low value around the league despite scoring at a good rate. If Gushchin continues to develop more compete level he could have a similar career, but probably not someone that will be a core piece to the Sharks rebuild. I love watching him though, super fun player in the o-zone.
 

Hodge

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If people are so averse to the pro-rated stats I'll put it a different way: between 2019 and 2023, Barclay Goodrow scored 110 points in 286 games.

That's perfectly reasonable 3rd line production especially when the guys he's realistically competing with for that lineup spot are Kostin and Grundstrom.
 

Juxtaposer

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So it’s Goodrow’s fault there was a global pandemic that limited him to 26 points in 70 games one season and 20 points in 55 (out of a possible 56) games the next? I’m not saying he’s some offensive dynamo but Goodrow has shown the ability to produce at a respectable 3rd line level since leaving SJ which some Sharks fans might not be aware of.
I personally don't feel like that's a respectable third line rate of scoring, especially when he's usually a possession black hole on top of it.

I'm okay with the play to deploy him in insanely tough minutes, for the record, it's just upsetting to see not one Barclay Goodrow but also Barclay Goodrow Except Worse both on our third line.
 

Hodge

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I personally don't feel like that's a respectable third line rate of scoring, especially when he's usually a possession black hole on top of it.

I'm okay with the play to deploy him in insanely tough minutes, for the record, it's just upsetting to see not one Barclay Goodrow but also Barclay Goodrow Except Worse both on our third line.
We don't have better options than Goodrow to fill that 3rd line LW role. Kostin and Grundstrom are less productive and worse defensively. If Gushchin or Graf are in the NHL they should be on a scoring line and not taking defensive zone draws with Wennberg and Kunin.

There is also something to be said for respecting Goodrow as a veteran who obviously had a difficult departure from the Rangers and giving him the opportunity to at least start the season in a position to regain the kind of form that earned him his big contract in the first place. Some on here talk about Danil Gushchin "earning" a lineup spot based on some stupid preseason game, how about a homegrown player in Goodrow returning to us under difficult circumstances after winning two Stanley Cups?
 

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