Pronger vs Makar

[AfroThunder396]

Pronger is being romantized on hf, just like lindros.

Makar has already passed peak pronger.

Why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave?

You're right, by the way. Pronger was an outstanding defensemen, but people spend more time celebrating him looking good in playoff losses than they do talking about why he never won a Cup when he was the best defenseman on his team.

"But he went to three Cup Finals in five years!" Yeah, and he lost two of them, the two of them where he was asked to be the #1 defenseman on the team. The only one he didn't lose was when he was the #2 defenseman on his team behind another Hall of Famer, Scott Niedermayer, who is the one that actually won the Conn Smythe that year.

 

[DickSmehlik]

I don't think some people remember that prime Pronger was basically a force field that kept offenses out his zone.

If you wanted to penetrate the defensive zone while he was on the ice, you basically had to send an elite combat team to the forest moon of Endor to disable the deflector shield before you could enter his zone.

 

[Lavar Ball]

It's close but Makar isn't done getting better yet IMO. Will be him I think

 

[SimpleJack]

Alright, let me know when Makar is a hart finalist, because Pronger is one of 8 defenseman in NHL history to win the MVP

U act like Makar is so far away from Hart level/caliber. Shit he might win one this year.

 

[Buck Naked]

Offensive defenseman have succeeded and won more Norris trophies in every era.

Yeah. How many won the Hart though?

 

[SimpleJack]

Pronger was outstanding but I’ll take the added level of elite offensive skillset that Makar brings along with still being solid in his own end.

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

Weird to read that Makar would not stand out as much in Pronger's era. He 100% would still dominate. Incredible skating translates across all eras.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave?

You're right, by the way. Pronger was an outstanding defensemen, but people spend more time celebrating him looking good in playoff losses than they do talking about why he never won a Cup when he was the best defenseman on his team.

"But he went to three Cup Finals in five years!" Yeah, and he lost two of them, the two of them where he was asked to be the #1 defenseman on the team. The only one he didn't lose was when he was the #2 defenseman on his team behind another Hall of Famer, Scott Niedermayer, who is the one that actually won the Conn Smythe that year.

In fairness to Pronger, that Oilers roster had no business being in the finals. Pronger and Roloson did a loooot of heavy lifting that year. Well, them and Fernando Pisani I guess.

 

[SimpleJack]

Yeah. How many won the Hart though?

Seriously how many posters need to bring up Prongers Hart…we get it. Makar is playing well enough rn and at his peak that he is easily also a candidate for that same prestigious award/league MVP. And I mean what exactly are we saying here that a Hart is the deciding factor? So this means Pronger is also better than Lidstrom and Bourque too then, right??

Weird to read that Makar would not stand out as much in Pronger's era. He 100% would still dominate. Incredible skating translates across all eras.

Anyone saying that is just being ridiculous.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah. How many won the Hart though?

Corey Perry and Taylor Hall won the Hart. They didn't have better careers nor were they more talented than Jarome Iginla or Steven Stamkos.

Jose Theodore won the Hart. He didn't have a better career nor was he more talented than Henrik Lundqvist or Roberto Luongo who never even won a Vezina.

A single award isn't a great sample. I only bring up the Norris Trophy because Makar is going to have 3 or 4 of them.

He would have to have serious injury trouble to not be a better defenseman relative to his peers, for a longer period of time, than Pronger was.

He arguably already has been. Pronger was never 1A/1B at worst for four consecutive years.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Pronger was outstanding but I’ll take the added level of elite offensive skillset that Makar brings along with still being solid in his own end.

Makar is outstanding but I’d take the added level of elite defensive/physical skillset that Pronger brings along with still being solid in the offensive end.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

"Well obviously Makar now but I take Pronger in the rough and tumble 90's and 00's."

From 1990 though the end of Pronger's career, the NHL awarded 22 Norris Trophies. 16 of those 22 were won by Leetch, Coffey, Bourque, Lidstrom, Niedermeyer, Keith, and Karlsson.

Offensive defenseman have succeeded and won more Norris trophies in every era.

Sure if you label every defenseman an offensive one, of course it'll look like they've won more Norrises.

I don't get this result.

Makar, at any given time, is a top 2 defenseman in the world at absolute worst and probably will be his entire prime.

You can't say that of Pronger.

Makar already has as many Norris trophies as Pronger, actually has a Conn Smythe (which people seem to think Pronger does), has a scoring record through 4+ seasons not even matched by Bobby Orr, and he's only 24.

Adam Fox plays for my team, so I'm going to request that you never make me defend Cale Makar again.

Again, you're making a huge assumption with Makar and comparing it to the known career for Pronger. Not exactly apples to apples.

And as others have brought up, part of the choice comes down to which NHL environment you're talking about. I think Pronger could still be very effective under current rules but a part of what made him great was his physicality and craziness.

 

[Machinehead]

Sure if you label every defenseman an offensive one, of course it'll look like they've won more Norrises.



Again, you're making a huge assumption with Makar and comparing it to the known career for Pronger. Not exactly apples to apples.

And as others have brought up, part of the choice comes down to which NHL environment you're talking about. I think Pronger could still be very effective under current rules but a part of what made him great was his physicality and craziness.

They're not just offensive defensemen. None of them are overly huge or overly physical.

A lot of the discourse in this thread is based on the idea that it depends on era but players with a similar profile to Makar (smaller, faster, more cerebral) dominated Pronger's era.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Why would you say something so controversial, yet so brave?

You're right, by the way. Pronger was an outstanding defensemen, but people spend more time celebrating him looking good in playoff losses than they do talking about why he never won a Cup when he was the best defenseman on his team.

"But he went to three Cup Finals in five years!" Yeah, and he lost two of them, the two of them where he was asked to be the #1 defenseman on the team. The only one he didn't lose was when he was the #2 defenseman on his team behind another Hall of Famer, Scott Niedermayer, who is the one that actually won the Conn Smythe that year.

Holy crap this is a hilarious way to diminish Pronger being a beast in the postseason.

Niedermayer was the captain of the Ducks when he won the Conn Smythe, which always gives you an edge in winning it if there's not a clear favorite. Pronger played more TOI per game than Niedermayer and put up 15 points in 19 games and was a +10 to Niedermayer's 11 in 21 and +2. To somehow make him the #2 guy behind NIedermayer is pretty hilarious.

There's a lot of variables in making an argument either way, but some of these takes are ridiculous.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

They're not just offensive defensemen. None of them are overly huge or overly physical.

A lot of the discourse in this thread is based on the idea that it depends on era but players with a similar profile to Makar (smaller, faster, more cerebral) dominated Pronger's era.

I think you're underrating how physical a lot of the guys you listed were. Coffey and Listrom were probably the least physical.

That's not to say Makar wouldn't succeed in a more physical era. But there's an argument that Pronger would be more valuable in that era.

 

[Malaka]

For today's game? Makar easily.

For the 90s/early 2000s? Pronger.

Makar would skate around 99.999% of the league back then… even the faster guys had cement feet compared to today. Are you sure?

 

[SimpleJack]

Corey Perry and Taylor Hall won the Hart. They didn't have better careers nor were they more talented than Jarome Iginla or Steven Stamkos.

Jose Theodore won the Hart. He didn't have a better career nor was he more talented than Henrik Lundqvist or Roberto Luongo who never even won a Vezina.

A single award isn't a great sample. I only bring up the Norris Trophy because Makar is going to have 3 or 4 of them.

He would have to have serious injury trouble to not be a better defenseman relative to his peers, for a longer period of time, than Pronger was.

He arguably already has been. Pronger was never 1A/1B at worst for four consecutive years.

Agreed with most of what you said but just to be fair…Pronger played during a time with a greater depth of all-time elite/HOF-caliber defenseman than Makar is currently. Guys like Lidstrom, Bourque(older but still great), Stevens, Leetch, Neidermayer, MacInnis. Maybe others too.

Not sure if any of todays defenseman other than Makar are of that same caliber.

 

[Machinehead]

I think you're underrating how physical a lot of the guys you listed were. Coffey and Listrom were probably the least physical.

That's not to say Makar wouldn't succeed in a more physical era. But there's an argument that Pronger would be more valuable in that era.

Leetch wouldn't swat a fly and was the best defenseman of the mid-90's. Sure, it was a different era but I think it's overestimated how different it was. What Pronger does different from Makar has value but I don't think that value skyrockets as you go back; at least not back to when Pronger played.

Agreed with most of what you said but just to be fair…Pronger played during a time with a greater depth of all-time elite/HOF-caliber defenseman than Makar is currently. Guys like Lidstrom, Bourque(older but still great), Stevens, Leetch, Neidermayer, MacInnis. Maybe others too.

Not sure if any of todays defenseman other than Makar are of that same caliber.

I don't think that's an unfair assessment.

 

[Ceremony]

This thread is what it was like when I started posting here and half of the board said Forsberg was the greatest player ever, and the other half complained about the people who said Forsberg was the greatest player ever.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Holy crap this is a hilarious way to diminish Pronger being a beast in the postseason.

Niedermayer was the captain of the Ducks when he won the Conn Smythe, which always gives you an edge in winning it if there's not a clear favorite. Pronger played more TOI per game than Niedermayer and put up 15 points in 19 games and was a +10 to Niedermayer's 11 in 21 and +2. To somehow make him the #2 guy behind NIedermayer is pretty hilarious.

There's a lot of variables in making an argument either way, but some of these takes are ridiculous.

This. Also, the “scandal” Pronger was involved in the year prior in EDM probably factored into him not getting it. This was when the NHL still had the holier-than-thou/giant stick up their ass PR wise before the Blackhawks fiasco, along with all the other skeletons in their closet coming out humbled them. Pronger 100% deserved the Conn Smythe over Niedermayer.

 

[Tralfamadore]

Makar would skate around 99.999% of the league back then… even the faster guys had cement feet compared to today. Are you sure?

That's probably true but he would be interfered with much more as well and played way more physical.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Makar would skate around 99.999% of the league back then… even the faster guys had cement feet compared to today. Are you sure?

Mike Gartner, Pavel Bure, Peter Brondra, Bobby Hull back in the day say hi

 

[Malaka]

Mike Gartner, Pavel Bure, Peter Brondra, Bobby Hull back in the day say hi

All of them might have had straight line speed, but not the transition or lateral ability. Makar would need to be chopped up and slashed to be contained

 

[Gordon Lightfoot]

All of them might have had straight line speed, but not the transition or lateral ability. Makar would need to be chopped up and slashed to be contained

You’re kinda acting we’re talking about Newsy Lalonde here or something. Guys did not have “cement feet” in 2000.

 

[authentic]

I'm starting to really believe Chris Pronger was one of the greatest defenseman in history.

He’s the best defenseman I’ve seen since I started watching hockey in the early 90s, so I would say he is. Not a comparable career to Lidstrom or Bourque but I’d take him over either all at their best.