Pro Tank Thread "You said that we'd be better now, better now. But you always let us down."

[Melvin]

I haven’t seen a GM in history get as much fan support for making a team worse than Benning.

Some people just love losers

Go to the Ottawa board. It's the same trash. But teh prospects!

 

[me2]

My solution is to get the kids to compete as hard as they can night in night out, and surround them with vets that can hold the kids accountable and teach the kids the right habit. Condition the kids to work their butts off, and let the tank happen naturally if they aren't good enough (which will likely be the case). Exactly how management has been doing things.

The "Pro Tankers" seem to want little to no presence of vets, hand all/most of the kids NHL roles (without having have them earn said spots or beat out a vet for said spots), throw the kids to the wolves, make the kids lose confidence by having them get owned by the opposition, having the kids stop competing hard by mid November since they'll be way out playoff contention by this time, and then hope and pray for great lottery odds.

In my opinion, my solution makes sense. Conditioning the kids to working hard and dangling a carrot in front of them (i.e. playoffs are a possibility) breeds character in the long run. Tanking via absence of vets or veteran firesale breeds cowards and kills the spirit of young players (is it a coincidence that many young oiler players that left Edmonton, "magically" became much better on their new teams?).

Bringing in a veteran or two to help the rebuild phase is fine. The fact Benning signed old guys to 4 years deals means he thinks you are wrong, 4 year deals, Jimbo must be wanting 4 more tanking years.

 

[Melvin]

This isn’t at all what pro tankers want. You’ve invented a silly position just so you have something easy to argue with.

Pro tankers do want young kids to have opportunities to make the team, that is true. There is an imbalance in terms of the number of vets on this team and the number of young players. We are going into year 5 of a rebuild and Pettersson would represent just the 8th rookie over that span (Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Hutton, Tryamkin, Stecher, and Boeser).

The other issue has been the unwillingness or inability to trade vets for picks and prospects. Bieksa and Burrows are the only two success stories. Hansen went for an AHL prospect which is already looking like a mistake. Vanek yielded a 4th liner who, while useful, is hardly a core piece of a rebuild. Hamhuis, Miller, Tanev, Kassian, Higgins, Garrison, and Kesler are other veteran assets that in one way or another were mishandled or wasted on “compete now” assets rather than pieces befitting to a rebuild.

There’s more but it’s tiresome to have to repeat the same basic arguments for the 100th time.

The new Jersey devils last season had 8 rookies in their opening night lineup. Eight rookies in one game! I watched the game and it was a ton of fun

Can't remember if they won or not but who cares. I don't think all the rookies stuck for the whole season but it was a clear sense of direction and their overall season was so much better than ours, and they have not been anywhere near as crap as we have been for as long.

But teh mentorship.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

This isn’t at all what pro tankers want. You’ve invented a silly position just so you have something easy to argue with.

Pro tankers do want young kids to have opportunities to make the team, that is true. There is an imbalance in terms of the number of vets on this team and the number of young players. We are going into year 5 of a rebuild and Pettersson would represent just the 8th rookie over that span (Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Hutton, Tryamkin, Stecher, and Boeser).

The other issue has been the unwillingness or inability to trade vets for picks and prospects. Bieksa and Burrows are the only two success stories. Hansen went for an AHL prospect which is already looking like a mistake. Vanek yielded a 4th liner who, while useful, is hardly a core piece of a rebuild. Hamhuis, Miller, Tanev, Kassian, Higgins, Garrison, and Kesler are other veteran assets that in one way or another were mishandled or wasted on “compete now” assets rather than pieces befitting to a rebuild.

There’s more but it’s tiresome to have to repeat the same basic arguments for the 100th time.

It's the same stupid strawman/false dichotomy argument he busts out every time this comes up. I really wish people would just ignore it.

"You dumb tankerz just want all rookies and no vets!!!1!"

• No we don't. We've told you that a thousand times and you keep ignoring it. What we want is for the team to stop prioritizing the acquisition of mediocre depth vets who should be regarded as expendable as they're the single easiest thing to acquire.

 

[DarrenX]

Fair enough.

So lets hold hands and be negative together I guess.

#TheSkyIsFalling #WeWillNeverGetBetter #BenningSux

Yes. This is the tank thread.

Nobody is saying "we will never get better"... in the fullness of time every team will rise and fall. If the Cubs and Red Sox can win the World Series then anything's possible. However, many people believe that the Canucks cannot become a contender until Benning is fired... he is simply not capable of making good decisions consistently enough to build a winning team. If Benning makes the right decision 25% of the time, the teams built by GMs who make the right decision 75% of the time will always beat us, consistently, until Aquilini gets tired of it. The fans already are.

 

[DownGoesMcDavid]

The new Jersey devils last season had 8 rookies in their opening night lineup. Eight rookies in one game! I watched the game and it was a ton of fun

Can't remember if they won or not but who cares. I don't think all the rookies stuck for the whole season but it was a clear sense of direction and their overall season was so much better than ours, and they have not been anywhere near as crap as we have been for as long.

But teh mentorship.

8 rookies eh?? Hmm if only there was a way to fact check your biased and exagurated post....oh wait.

So lets count the rookies

Will Butcher
Jesper Brat
Blake Coleman
Nico Hischier
Jimmy Hayes

I see 5 here. Tell me how u got 8.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

8 rookies eh?? Hmm if only there was a way to fact check your biased and exagurated post....oh wait.

So lets count the rookies

Will Butcher
Jesper Brat
Blake Coleman
Nico Hischier
Jimmy Hayes

I see 5 here. Tell me how u got 8.
View attachment 141705

At least, check your damn facts straight. In 3 games, you get 5 rookies:

@ Blue Jackets, Feb 10: Will Butcher, Jesper Brat, Blake Coleman, Nico Hischier, Jimmy Hayes and John Quenneville
vs Calgary, Feb 8: Will Butcher, Jesper Brat, Blake Coleman, Nico Hischier, Jimmy Hayes and John Quenneville
vs Nashville, Jan 25: Will Butcher, Jesper Brat, Blake Coleman, Nico Hischier, Jimmy Hayes and Kevin Rooney

Only if it there was a way to... never mind, you can't understand nothing than the orders your master and commander Benning asks you to do. Wooof.

 

[DownGoesMcDavid]

At least, check your damn facts straight. In 3 games, you get 5 rookies:

@ Blue Jackets, Feb 10: Will Butcher, Jesper Brat, Blake Coleman, Nico Hischier, Jimmy Hayes and John Quenneville
vs Calgary, Feb 8: Will Butcher, Jesper Brat, Blake Coleman, Nico Hischier, Jimmy Hayes and John Quenneville
vs Nashville, Jan 25: Will Butcher, Jesper Brat, Blake Coleman, Nico Hischier, Jimmy Hayes and Kevin Rooney

Only if it there was a way to... never mind, you can't understand nothing than the orders your master and commander Benning asks you to do. Wooof.

Lol what? I dont even know if that was english. In 3 games u get 5 rookies? What does that have to do with the convo

The post i commented to claimed NJD had 8 rookies on openning night.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Let's get into tank spirit!

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Actual pro-Benning poster:

"Everything is great! Everything is wonderful! Benning is building a winner! Very...very slowly!"

 

[me2]

"Everything is great! Everything is wonderful! Benning is building a winner! Very...very slowly!"

Don't worry. We are signing Karlsson next year, and Tryamkin is coming back, and Hughes will be a Norris candidate in his first year here, and Joulevi will break out, and we can flip Sutter for a #1D.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

 

[Tv9924]

The tank should be fun this year. Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat are all legit top line players. We won't be as starved for offensive talent as other tank years. The powerplay will be fun to watch. I expect to see Gaudette, Dahlen, and Juolevi all crack the big squad at various points over the course of the season. Hopefully we see Goldobin and Virtanen finally turn that corner. I'm actually excited about a season for the first time in years! I fully expect a bottom five finish, but it'll be fun to watch Pettersson grow into a bona fide superstar.

 

[Jack Burton]

Actual pro-Benning poster:

"Everything is great! Everything is wonderful! Benning is building a winner! Very...very slowly!"

So true

 

[Pavel96]

My solution is to get the kids to compete as hard as they can night in night out, and surround them with vets that can hold the kids accountable and teach the kids the right habit. Condition the kids to work their butts off, and let the tank happen naturally if they aren't good enough (which will likely be the case). Exactly how management has been doing things.

The "Pro Tankers" seem to want little to no presence of vets, hand all/most of the kids NHL roles (without having have them earn said spots or beat out a vet for said spots), throw the kids to the wolves, make the kids lose confidence by having them get owned by the opposition, having the kids stop competing hard by mid November since they'll be way out playoff contention by this time, and then hope and pray for great lottery odds.

In my opinion, my solution makes sense. Conditioning the kids to working hard and dangling a carrot in front of them (i.e. playoffs are a possibility) breeds character in the long run. Tanking via absence of vets or veteran firesale breeds cowards and kills the spirit of young players (is it a coincidence that many young oiler players that left Edmonton, "magically" became much better on their new teams?).

How about they don't grossly overpay for these vets and sign them to long term contracts? I'm sure the young guys watching Loui soak up 6 million to produce less than them will teach them a lot. A lot about how much money to demand on their next contract.

And management has not been going about a tank the natural way. They have been trying to win now and that has resulted in multiple bottom 3 finishes. Edmonton currently is a great example as to why having a few great young players surrounded by bad fa signings still results in missing the playoff.

 

[nuck luck]

If we're the worst team in the league this year, maybe we get Jack Hughes.........to go along with Quinn Hughes, Elias Pettersson, Brock Boeser, etc.

It's not a matter of IF........it's a matter of WHEN the Canucks will rise again.

This is a marathon. Not a sprint.

Being so negative is just dumb and pointless.

All sports franchises rebuild and go through peaks and valleys.

We are no different.

That's 3 players in 5 years of drafting very early in the first and having, basically, a late 1st rounder. An entire summer of bs talk about how great our pool is and how many guys will be pushing for a spot... honestly, even I'm a little surprised at how little push there is.

'WHEN' only comes to fruition 'IF' we get rid of benning and weisbrod. We have zero chance of actually competing for the SC with these guys. Playoffs and early exit is as far as we get.

Actually, a sprint was what the goal was when the idiots decided to 'retool' because they thought they were smarter than everyone else. A marathon is what it has become...with no end in sight. We are still 2-3 years away from competing after benning & weisbrod get canned.

Being so positive is just dumb and stupid. A prudent individual does not overlook and ignore catastrophic wrongs in hopes of things working itself out based on hopes and wishes.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

We're bringing the tank firepower this year! Just watch!

 

[nuck luck]

Just making garbage claims like, "I don't think we'll win a game until November," is just toxic and unnecessarily negative in my opinion. It's disturbing really. Most true fans, regardless of how good or bad their team is, will often feel "rejuvinated" and "fresh" when a new season is about to start. We get to watch our favourite team after half a year off.

What's disturbing is how you constantly ignore truths and believe our situation has improved. You preach of all the 'positives' while not mentioning any realities and truths. THIS is disturbing!

How can any individual purposely deceive himself and actually believe his own deception?

I'm sure all the fans, true or not (and you may consider yourself true, but ignorance does not equate one fan above others), went into these preseason games with a glimmer of hope, rejuvination and hope for a fresh start...but it didn't take long for reality to kick in and realize that we are no better off than the previous years.

People like you seem to live in a bubble...we make a couple trades and trust that all of our prospects have elevated their game to the next level. Preach and praise the mgt and believe that there's so much improvement while you ignorantly believe the rest of the teams in the league and their prospects have become stagnant over the summer. Get all hyped up and than continuously make up lies and excuses for the following failure of a season.

Ignorance is one of the most disturbing distasteful qualities any person can have.

 

[Horse McHindu]

What's disturbing is how you constantly ignore truths and believe our situation has improved. You preach of all the 'positives' while not mentioning any realities and truths. THIS is disturbing!

How can any individual purposely deceive himself and actually believe his own deception?

I'm sure all the fans, true or not (and you may consider yourself true, but ignorance does not equate one fan above others), went into these preseason games with a glimmer of hope, rejuvination and hope for a fresh start...but it didn't take long for reality to kick in and realize that we are no better off than the previous years.

People like you seem to live in a bubble...we make a couple trades and trust that all of our prospects have elevated their game to the next level. Preach and praise the mgt and believe that there's so much improvement while you ignorantly believe the rest of the teams in the league and their prospects have become stagnant over the summer. Get all hyped up and than continuously make up lies and excuses for the following failure of a season.

Ignorance is one of the most disturbing distasteful qualities any person can have.

You do make some fair points, but here’s all I want from this team:

Compete HARD night in night out. Period. It sounds easier said than done, but what often happens when teams are eliminated from the playoffs by November/December, they stop competing hard and start going through the motions.

If the Canucks are slated to be a bad team this year? Fine. I just want them to show up working HARD every night.......and I believe that the best way to do that, is by having the right vets on the team to hold said kids accountable, while allowing the kids to grow their games in protected roles.

See? That’s the thing. I don’t really care that much if we miss the playoffs and are a lottery team? Why would I? We would just have a better chance of drafting a core player.

My biggest fear is that we ice a bunch of kids (move all the vets), GIVE kids roles in the NHL instead of making them EARN said roles, throw the kids to the wolves by playing them in positions that they are too green for, have their confidence destroyed, and have said kids going through the motions by mid November/early December.

Forcing a tank via veteran fire sale and via
“giving “ kids NHL roles, often fosters a lazy work environment. That’s why I dislike this notion of INDIRECT TANKING. Again - I point to the Oilers. There’s a reason why MANY Oiler players significantly elevated their games upon leaving Edmonton.....culture. That’s why I will ALWAYS support management for having an active presence in the UFA market.

If Edmonton and Buffalo have taught us anything, it’s that there’s more to a rebuild than good drafting and winning lotteries.

@CanaFan - I know you cited Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Toronto as examples, but I’ll leave you with a few thoughts:

1) Over the last 20-25 years, how many bad teams have been in the NHL that have remained bottom feeders or non playoff teams for years on end? In my opinion, for every Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Toronto created (by the way, Toronto hasn’t done jack yet and so I’m being generous by letting you cite the Leafs ), there are FAR more examples of bottom feeding teams that were not successful in rebuilding.

2) Chicago and Pittsburgh landed Toews, Kane, Crosby, and Malkin, but where did their other core players come from in the draft? Perhaps a team DOESNT have to spend years and years on end trying to win the lottery?......and instead, can realize that good picks can be had anywhere in the draft, and that fostering a good environment is often more conducive to maximizing a prospect?

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Go to the Ottawa board. It's the same trash. But teh prospects!

Lol let me assure you that NO ONE on the Sens board supports Dorion.

 

[Peter10]

1) Over the last 20-25 years, how many bad teams have been in the NHL that have remained bottom feeders or non playoff teams for years on end? In my opinion, for every Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Toronto created (by the way, Toronto hasn’t done jack yet and so I’m being generous by letting you cite the Leafs ), there are FAR more examples of bottom feeding teams that were not successful in rebuilding.

Just a guess but that might be related to having average / bad management and only turned it around once competent people got in.

 

[Melvin]

Lol let me assure you that NO ONE on the Sens board supports Dorion.

Ice-Tray.

I would not have said it were I not just there reading.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Just a guess but that might be related to having average / bad management and only turned it around once competent people got in.

Agreed, but even for a great management team, it will usually take 5-7 years to truly turn the ship around.

People will disagree with me on this, but I truly believe that our rebuild started in 2014 when we traded Luongo. I know that this is the part where you will cite a bunch of past quotations of mine where me and management used “retool” instead instead of “rebuild,” but a retool is simply a type of rebuild.......a rebuild where kids are brought in slowly and are forced to earn their spots rather than having it being given to them......all the while, trying to realistically push for a playoff spot.

Did it go to plan? Absolutely not. However - one thing I’m proud about this management group, is that they’ve gotten the kids to compete almost all year long even when they were all but eliminated from the playoffs. I believe it’s that type of commitment to competing that will pay off for this core down the road.

You have to have vets to keep the kids accountable, and you have to have kids earning their roster spots rather than having it gifted to them.

Has this management been without mistakes? Of course not. While Prust had been a great character guy and leader on all of his prior teams, he acted like a childish jackass in Vancouver after he came from his injury (and when it was clear that he had returned too soon from injury). Eriksson wasn’t the goal scorer that management had hoped he would be either, and WD completely misused Eriksson.

However - despite a few errors that management has made, I believe that they have made far more correct moves and this is one thing that me and the anti-Benning crew on here will always disagree with.

The presence of Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel, and Tim Schaller will ensure that

1) the correct kids will make the team (ie the ones that are truly ready)
2) said kids will be given protected roles and/or roles that will be most conducive to their success
3) the kids that have lots of potential but aren’t quite ready, will be sent down to Utica where they will be given far more ice time and can grow their games (ie Dahlen).

The anti-Benning crew cites that we’ve bled many picks, and yet our farm is the deepest that it’s ever been in our history.......prospects that were drafted from many different rounds (Petrus Palmu says hi).

I believe that we already have great management and that sometime between 2019 and 2021, we are going to see this team become elite once again (2020-2021 has been my prediction right from Day One).

 

[Horse McHindu]

The 2007/2008 team was a game away from taking over the lead of it's division with ~10 games left in the season they imploded down the stretch and finished the year with 88 points, and missed the playoffs by 3 points.

I think that's a bit optimistic.

Fair enough. While I don’t think we will come anywhere near “taking over the lead” in the division down the stretch, I do believe that this team will trend upwards and finish somewhere between 85-88 points. I think we’ll finish 10th-11th this year and will catch a lot of teams and pundits off guard with great work ethic. However - I’m also assuming that we stay much healthier this year than in previous years.

Can you please explain the "throwing the kids to the wolves comment"? What do you see our projected top 6 being this year?

Oh absolutely. I believe that the presence of guys like Beagle, Schaller, Roussel, etc, prevents talented guys like Dahlen from joining the NHL to soon and being placed in roles that they are too green for. Instead - a guy like Dahlen will go to Utica and get top line minutes and responsibility. The presence of vets also forces guys like Leipsic and Goldobin to EARN their spots and PROVE that they’re ready.......as opposed to having said spots gifted to them and having them experience a rude awakening later (ie getting owned by the opposition).

If it was up to me, I’d consider doing this as my Top 6:

#####-Pettersson-Boeser
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen

Guys like Eriksson, Roussel, Leipsic, and perhaps Goldobin can compete or take turns revolving on that 1st line LW spot.

I realize that having Pettersson as a 1st line C is possibly the VERY DEFINITION of throwing to the wolves, but again......I believe it’s all about making sure that a prospect is ready, and I believe that EP might already be good enough for this role.

I also believe that at current, Horvat is the teams’ best player and so playing Horvat with Baertschi and Virtanen would also create balance. These three guys were actually really good together in preseason three years ago and so I’m interested to see how they would play together.

If EP isn’t ready for that role yet however, then just go with:

Baertschi-Horvat-Boeser
Leipsic-Pettersson-[Goldobin/Virtanen/LE]

Pettersson and Boeser will have to carry the offensive load for the team this year. Isn't that by definition throwing them into the wolves? Adding bottom 6 replacement level junk isn't going to stop the youngest players on the team from carrying the largest load.

You forgot to mention Horvat. Baertschi isn’t the greatest player in the world, but his production is consistent with that of an average 2nd liner. Guys like Leipsic and Virtanen will also be given more offensive responsibilities, and I believe that one of them will produce more than expected. Eriksson is also a guy that might be able to produce more if he’s used in a top 6 capacity.

When I think of easing young players in I look at what Winnipeg did for someone like Scheifele they had him playing behind the Ladd/Little/Wheeler line until he was ready to take over for Little. With Laine and Ehlers they were able to play them behind Scheifele and Wheeler. They didn't have bottom 6 junk "teaching how to play the right way"

Perhaps Pettersson won’t need to be eased in as much as Scheifele. There is a big difference in talent level between these two guys. These next few months will be telling, but I believe that EP might be there already. If not, no biggie. Play him on the 2nd line as I illustrated above.

As far as our bottom 6 goes, all these guys will do is:

1) Make sure that the right guys are playing in the NHL. If a guy like Dahlen isn’t quite ready, give him top line minutes in Utica instead of giving him limited minutes in the NHL.

2) make sure that our young offensive players (Pettersson, Boeser, Leipsic, Virtanen) get more offensive zone starts and opportunities.

You can pile together as many buzz words and cliches as you want, it doesn't make your argument any more credible.

Smart management doesn’t just tank via veteran sell off and icing a bunch of kids. Smart management analyses where their kids are at in their development and where they need to be. Vets are brought into ensure kids compete every night, create the locker room culture, and to also make sure that the kids are being placed into roles that are commensurate with their levels and abilities.

 

[Bougieman]

This isn’t at all what pro tankers want. You’ve invented a silly position just so you have something easy to argue with.

Pro tankers do want young kids to have opportunities to make the team, that is true. There is an imbalance in terms of the number of vets on this team and the number of young players. We are going into year 5 of a rebuild and Pettersson would represent just the 8th rookie over that span (Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Hutton, Tryamkin, Stecher, and Boeser).

The other issue has been the unwillingness or inability to trade vets for picks and prospects. Bieksa and Burrows are the only two success stories. Hansen went for an AHL prospect which is already looking like a mistake. Vanek yielded a 4th liner who, while useful, is hardly a core piece of a rebuild. Hamhuis, Miller, Tanev, Kassian, Higgins, Garrison, and Kesler are other veteran assets that in one way or another were mishandled or wasted on “compete now” assets rather than pieces befitting to a rebuild.

There’s more but it’s tiresome to have to repeat the same basic arguments for the 100th time.

Wait, what? A nothing-left-in-the-tank Jannick Hansen for Goldobin was a mistake? He's got some upside. That we got anything for Hansen that might be of value in the future is pretty cool. I understand you're trying to make your argument that everything Benning has done is terrible, but that one wasn't so bad. I mean geez, there's so much other terrible stuff to pick from.