Pro-Scouting Director Candidates

[ElProfessor]

Copp (5.6)
Compher (5.1)
Tarasenko (4.8)
Holl (3.4)
Assmusen (3.2 *exension)
Petry (2.3)
Gustafsson (2)

You want to know why the team sucks? It's got $26.4 million dollars worth of AHL-level players on it.

Seider, Raymond, Ed, etc. They would already have playoff experience if half that money was spent half-well.

Have any of the pro-scouts who thought these signings were good ideas been fired? No. Have any new pro-scouts been hired? No.

It's actually terrifying imagining what they might spend all their cap space this summer on.

We could be at a big cross-roads here.


**********

Just flipping through some of the better organization's directories...these were the best candidates I could find:

Tampa: No Dir. of Pro Scouting...but Jamie Pushor, Ast GM/Dir. of Player Personnel. He started as a pro scout there and became Dir. of Pro Scouting. Drafted by us/played w Yzerman/hired by Yzerman in Tampa. He seems like he'd be a strong candidate to poach.

Islanders: Director of Pro Scouting: Ken Morrow. He's actually been w the Islanders since the JimmyD days (and played on the miracle on ice team). Some connection there.

Dallas: Head Pro Scout Craig Bonner. No real connections to us. Maybe some Red Wing Yzerman connection if he had a Jim Nill connection. Maybe not.

Vegas: Director of Pro Scouting Jim McKenzie. They've probably done as good a job as anyone acquiring pro talent. No real connections to us though.

Boston: Director of Pro Scouting Dennis Bonvie. No obvious connection I can see.

Carolina: Director of Pro Scouting Mark Craig. Also no obvious connections.

Rangers: Associate Director of Player Personnel & Director of Pro Scouting: Garth Joy. No obvious connections.

Edmonton: Director of Pro Scouting Warren Rychel. Don't see any obvious connections...maybe to Holland...but maybe that would be a negative.

Florida, Colorado: Don't have a Director/Head of Pro-Scouting listed. Maybe someone there is unofficially in the role.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I nominate myself for the job.

Hey, I can’t be worse than what they have now.

 

[Ulysses31]

Copp
Compher
Tarasenko
Assmusen (exension)
Holl
Gustafsson
Petry

I don't care about the Fischer's, Motte's, Lyon's, etc. who were given 1yr league min'ish deals to BE borderline AHL players.

These guys are all ^ essentially borderline AHL'ers on the roster who were given major deals by Yzerman.

I'm as pro-Yzerman and as pro-Yzerplan as they come. I think All the most important aspects of the rebuild have been executed exceptionally wonderfully, to this point.

But our Pro-Scouting and NHL talent acquisition has been a flat out F-. We should have made the playoffs last yr. We should be making the playoffs this yr. Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, Kasper, Johansson, Soderblom, Mazur, etc. should be getting NHL playoff experience right now. These GARBAGE signings are why they're not. And there's no good reason that they shouldn't be. There's no reason whatsoever that this ^ huge chunk of cap space shouldn't have instead been spent on quality NHL players.

I don't see any new pro-scouts being hired. I don't see any of the pro-scouts who thought these signings were good ideas being fired. We haven't had an actual Pro-Scouting Director since Howe retired.

We have all this cap space. We are entering this critical crossroad of the rebuild. And we still have all these people who made all these horrible mistakes in place.

I'm quadruple red-alert terrified about what they're going to do with our cap space this summer. It doesn't seem like the errors are being addressed and corrected.

Of those tank, holl, goofy are/were complete failures. Rasmussen's contract is good IMO, other 1s not failures but not necessarily good either.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Of those tank, holl, goofy are/were complete failures. Rasmussen's contract is good IMO, other 1s not failures but not necessarily good either.

I'm guessing goofy is Gus? I agree. Gus's was bad though I understand not trying to be the deal Ghost got from the Hurricanes. But man has he been a disappointment.

The Holl signing however has been brutal for this team and has to be Yzerman's worst.

They keep giving him chances to prove he's a competent bottom pairing d-man and he simply can't do it. His contract is unmovable so they ended up making trades like with Maatta because he's easier to deal. They've got this total dead weight they have to keep shifting around on the roster.

 

[SantosHalper]

I think people are overestimating the effect of director of pro scouting. Surely good pro scouts can make a difference, like for example whom ever it was who found Forsling to Florida certainly earned his paycheck.


But do they really need a director? Director of pro scouting sounds like a paper pushing job or mostly ceremonial job, Mark Howe is the only director of pro scouting Wings had. There wasn't one before him and when he retired, he wasn't replaced.


And in the summer 2021, i met Oilers european pro scout and i asked what exactly you are doing. He said watches +200 games a year live, all around Europe and then he writes a report and sends it to the GM. And they have a meeting with all the pro scouts once(?) a year, where they go through those reports. Sounded very much like in that equation there isn't a need for a middle man between pro scouts and GM.


Second question is, how much pro scouting the likes of Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Holl, Tarasenko, Petry etc.. needs? Those guys been in the league for years before Wings signed them. Even most of the fans had pretty good picture what we got. And other thing is, if there was a better UFA available than those names above and he's not interested, case is closed. Same with trades, if the other GM ain't interested or he wants something what Yzerman isn't willing to give, thats it then.


Wings have 6 pro scouts, 1 of them is european pro scout, so 5 of them operate in NA. I would imagine that they have their own regions like amateur scouts. 1 scouting AHL western conference and 1 in the east, and same thing in NHL. 1 in the west and 1 in the east, since Maltby is also coaching a high school team in Michigan, so he's living in the area. But what he is scouting for is hard to say. My guess he's travelling to be the second pair of eyes where ever Steve wants him to go, east or west. And fills a second report on same players than the other scout.


These teams also doesn't have director of pro scouting:

Colorado, Florida, Los Angeles, Minnesota, Montreal, Pittsburg, San Jose, St.Louis, Tampa Bay & Toronto. Utah(?)


These teams don't have director of pro scouting but they have head pro scout:

Calgary, Chicago x2(1 in NA & 1 Europe), Dallas, Nashville, New Jersey & Washington. Utah(?)

 

[Winger98]

I'm guessing goofy is Gus? I agree. Gus's was bad though I understand not trying to be the deal Ghost got from the Hurricanes. But man has he been a disappointment.

The Holl signing however has been brutal for this team and has to be Yzerman's worst.

They keep giving him chances to prove he's a competent bottom pairing d-man and he simply can't do it. His contract is unmovable so they ended up making trades like with Maatta because he's easier to deal. They've got this total dead weight they have to keep shifting around on the roster.

I thought Gus had looked better since McLellen took over, but it was really just january. February and March have hit him hard, though those months haven't been kind to the team in general. I wouldn't go out of my way to run Gus out if we can replace Holl and give him a full camp next year, though. He's cheap enough to bury and left side D is something we have options with in GR.

 

[ElProfessor]

I think people are overestimating the effect of director of pro scouting. Surely good pro scouts can make a difference, like for example whom ever it was who found Forsling to Florida certainly earned his paycheck.


But do they really need a director? Director of pro scouting sounds like a paper pushing job or mostly ceremonial job, Mark Howe is the only director of pro scouting Wings had. There wasn't one before him and when he retired, he wasn't replaced.


And in the summer 2021, i met Oilers european pro scout and i asked what exactly you are doing. He said watches +200 games a year live, all around Europe and then he writes a report and sends it to the GM. And they have a meeting with all the pro scouts once(?) a year, where they go through those reports. Sounded very much like in that equation there isn't a need for a middle man between pro scouts and GM.


Second question is, how much pro scouting the likes of Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Holl, Tarasenko, Petry etc.. needs? Those guys been in the league for years before Wings signed them. Even most of the fans had pretty good picture what we got. And other thing is, if there was a better UFA available than those names above and he's not interested, case is closed. Same with trades, if the other GM ain't interested or he wants something what Yzerman isn't willing to give, thats it then.


Wings have 6 pro scouts, 1 of them is european pro scout, so 5 of them operate in NA. I would imagine that they have their own regions like amateur scouts. 1 scouting AHL western conference and 1 in the east, and same thing in NHL. 1 in the west and 1 in the east, since Maltby is also coaching a high school team in Michigan, so he's living in the area. But what he is scouting for is hard to say. My guess he's travelling to be the second pair of eyes where ever Steve wants him to go, east or west. And fills a second report on same players than the other scout.


These teams also doesn't have director of pro scouting:

Colorado, Florida, Los Angeles, Minnesota, Montreal, Pittsburg, San Jose, St.Louis, Tampa Bay & Toronto. Utah(?)


These teams don't have director of pro scouting but they have head pro scout:

Calgary, Chicago x2(1 in NA & 1 Europe), Dallas, Nashville, New Jersey & Washington. Utah(?)

I disagree on this. Yzerman is stretched too thin. And his main focus is right where it should be, on the 1st Rd of the draft.

Mistakes are being made. The input he’s been getting from his pro-scouts seems to be bad. He needs a 2nd set of eyes he can trust to verify what his pro scouts are reporting to him.

In the other situations you mention without pro-scouting directors, that 2nd set of eyes is typically an assistant gm, director of player personnel, etc.

In our situation, that person would be Jiri Fischer, who I don’t think is at all involved w scouting. Lidstrom.. no one really seems to have any idea what he’s doing, but he’s doing it in Sweden. Horcoff’s focus is on the Griffins. Every other senior guy is focused on player development or amateur scouting.

I think they most definitely need a Pro Scouting Director. And an outside hire.

 

[ElProfessor]

I thought Gus had looked better since McLellen took over, but it was really just january. February and March have hit him hard, though those months haven't been kind to the team in general. I wouldn't go out of my way to run Gus out if we can replace Holl and give him a full camp next year, though. He's cheap enough to bury and left side D is something we have options with in GR.

They need to sign a solid RHD to a 2yr deal.

Chariot — Seider
Ed — Johansson
Gus — New RHD

The next yr:
??? — Seider
Ed — ASP
Johansson — New RHD

The next yr:
??? — Seider
Ed — ASP
Wallinder/Buium — Johansson

If that new #1LHD is on the market this yr (Chychrun?), get him, and Gus is your #7

 

[Henkka]

22M in cap space for season 2025-26.

Only 3 RFAs to be extended (Söderblom, Berggren, Johansson) any of them won't get more than 1.5M.

That's 4.5M
Kane could be extended for 6.5-7.5M, 1-year.
Promote Mazur to Craig Smith's spot, salaries go even.

That's 12M at maximum.

Offense is set, goalies are set.

Only player you need to replace is Petry, and we have 12M for that. That would drop Holl on rotation. Go after Chychrun or Ekblad.

If you don't extend Kane, then go after Boeser or Ehlers.

 

[Frk It]

I think it is likely we could stand to improve our pro scouting department.

But I also don't know we have all the information needed to criticize it as much as we do.

Like is signing Andrew Copp an indictment on our pro scouting? How can we say that if we don't know how it went down.

Do people really think our pro scouts were like "HEY YOU GOTTA GET COPP, HE's OUR #1 TARGET!!!!"

I think it is a lot more likely that he would have been like the 9th or 10th guy on the list for that off-season. Then the top 8 guys all say no to coming here. So then you sign Copp because it's better than having a massive hole in your line-up. That would hardly be an indictment on your pro scouts in my eyes.

Now I do think the Holl and Petry moves are possibly indicators our pro scouts are lacking judgement. Someone should have pushed back on those moves based on how bad each have looked here since being acquired.

Ultimately though it is the GM that takes the intel from Pro scouts and goes out and makes the contract offers. So I would put more onus on him for navigating free agency and signing and re-signing players than I would the pro scouts.

 

[SantosHalper]

In the other situations you mention without pro-scouting directors, that 2nd set of eyes is typically an assistant gm, director of player personnel, etc.

In our situation, that person would be Jiri Fischer, who I don’t think is at all involved w scouting. Lidstrom.. no one really seems to have any idea what he’s doing, but he’s doing it in Sweden. Horcoff’s focus is on the Griffins. Every other senior guy is focused on player development or amateur scouting.

Maybe Horcoff is unofficial director of pro scouting, he needs those pro scouting reports as well. I believe Fischer has participated in amateur scouting in the past. Lidstrom is probably some sort of consiglieri.

This still comes down to the fact:

- Does that specific UFA player want to sign with Detroit?

- What the other GM wants in the trade and is Yzerman willing to pay that price?

Director of pro scouting or any pro scout can't help there.

 

[RedHawkDown]

ChatGPT would be far better than all of our existing pro scouts.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Maybe Horcoff is unofficial director of pro scouting, he needs those pro scouting reports as well. I believe Fischer has participated in amateur scouting in the past. Lidstrom is probably some sort of consiglieri.

This still comes down to the fact:

- Does that specific UFA player want to sign with Detroit?

- What the other GM wants in the trade and is Yzerman willing to pay that price?

Director of pro scouting or any pro scout can't help there.

These are excuses. These guys are paid millions of dollars to manage pro sports teams. That's not an excuse.

For example, Columbus just picked up Fabbro off of waivers this season and he's been a first-pairing dman since, playing 25 minutes in their most recent win. We were below Columbus when that happened and would have had priority in the waiver order. We just have horrific, dog-shit, terrible pro scouts.

 

[SantosHalper]

These are excuses. These guys are paid millions of dollars to manage pro sports teams. That's not an excuse.

For example, Columbus just picked up Fabbro off of waivers this season and he's been a first-pairing dman since, playing 25 minutes in their most recent win. We were below Columbus when that happened and would have had priority in the waiver order. We just have horrific, dog-shit, terrible pro scouts.

Not excuses, facts.

Yzerman's decision to pick Fabbro or not pick Fabbro. Scouts doesn't make decisions.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I think it is likely we could stand to improve our pro scouting department.

But I also don't know we have all the information needed to criticize it as much as we do.

Like is signing Andrew Copp an indictment on our pro scouting? How can we say that if we don't know how it went down.

Do people really think our pro scouts were like "HEY YOU GOTTA GET COPP, HE's OUR #1 TARGET!!!!"

I think it is a lot more likely that he would have been like the 9th or 10th guy on the list for that off-season. Then the top 8 guys all say no to coming here. So then you sign Copp because it's better than having a massive hole in your line-up. That would hardly be an indictment on your pro scouts in my eyes.

Now I do think the Holl and Petry moves are possibly indicators our pro scouts are lacking judgement. Someone should have pushed back on those moves based on how bad each have looked here since being acquired.

Ultimately though it is the GM that takes the intel from Pro scouts and goes out and makes the contract offers. So I would put more onus on him for navigating free agency and signing and re-signing players than I would the pro scouts.

With respect to the free agent signings, I think everyone in the organization knew exactly what they were getting with Copp, Compher, Tank, yadda, yadda, yadda. With each of them, I think you could have argued that they were the best of what was available TO THE WINGS at the time and were an improvement over what we had available internally at the time. When everyone else said no, this is what was available to us. I find it odd that those who think we aren't competitive enough are the ones claiming that the alternative to signing free agents (i.e. doing nothing at all) will somehow make us better. I have yet to figure out this logic.

I am far less critical of the free agent signings than I am our inability to get anything out of the trade market. While I appreciate we can't afford to give away a lot of what other teams actually want, we should have been able to pull a couple useful, solid but not sexy, players from the trade market.