Post-Game Talk: Prerequiste for preseason pre-game talk Canadiens Vs. Devils

[MasterD]

Players needing contracts is just regular business. There are contracts that come due who will not be renewed as in any year. Next year we should be in a better place as the ones being resigned will not be big money and the cap is expected to rise. Two years from now there will be six significant contracts that will end that I don't see being resigned added to that the increase in the cap. The next year will be the Price and Matheson contracts along with the increase in the cap. The year after that Gallagher and Anderson. We are not in a situation to panic.

Never said panic. Just said it didn't make sense to go out and sign big players to big contracts right now.

I swear some people come here just for the sake of arguing, you don't even read the posts you decide to argue.

 

[larek]

8-12 or 9-12 range is where I see us falling too. It's going to come down to injuries and if we have the normal amount or historic amount again. I expect several vets and youth to improve.

The other part of me wants to widen the range to 8-16. I feel like if we stay healthy, we fall in that range and I won't be shocked if it's a 12-16 range pick. I have our playoff chances set around 5% or less but another top 5 pick as similar odds (5-10%). Too many teams will try to move down while we are trying to move up.

This season has move up slightly written all over it. We will see

I'd say bottom 6

 

[BLONG7]

Hughes will have had three years to rebuild the team. If you think that is insufficient to get to 8th in the conference, I think that’s your low standards.

Hughes inherited a 1OA pick, Caufield, Suzuki, Guhle, and a carte blanche to sell NHL assets. If he can’t add the requisite talent to finish in the top8 of a 16 team conference after three years, I think that’s his problem.

GMs shouldn’t get half a decade+ to twaddle around whistling frere jacques.

Bergevin has rubbed off on you? Who wants to compete for 8th?? Who has the low standards?

These guys are building something they are going to call sustainable.....and they are not trying to get to 8th place.

Have some patience man..............we have been utter garbage since 2017 and I have said before it's not easy. The previous clown had 10 years...............this current guy has had 1.5 years....
Have some faith, at least the new guys have some brains....

 

[StCaufield]

Bergevin has rubbed off on you? Who wants to compete for 8th?? Who has the low standards?

These guys are building something they are going to call sustainable.....and they are not trying to get to 8th place.

Have some patience man..............we have been utter garbage since 2017 and I have said before it's not easy. The previous clown had 10 years...............this current guy has had 1.5 years....
Have some faith, at least the new guys have some brains....

To be fair if this team squeaks in the playoffs I’d have to be extremely happy with their development and for what comes years from now

 

[StCaufield]

-Why? Making the playoffs doesn't inherently say anything about growth of a team, other than actually being able to compete for a cup. Winning more/getting more points is a better sign of growth, but even that isn't a perfect measure because of how much luck plays a role. Like, Colorado and Tampa are two recent cup winners who don't match that profile at all.

-You talking about when Guerin became GM in August of 2019? The Wild had two consensus top-15 prospects in the NHL (Kaprisov and Boldy) and a top-10 D-core in the NHL. And their cap situation still wasn't as bad as Montreal's was.

-I'm not saying Hughes didn't inherit assets, its that what he inherited wasn't all that significant. New GMs almost never inherit a full strip-down rebuild with zero assets. They either have young players of Suzuki and Caufield's ilk or better, veterans with substantial trade value, or both. I like Guhle's upside, but if you think a recent mid-1st who was consider a good but not great prospect is a guy worth mentioning then you're not actually paying attention to what other teams have/had.

-That's cool, but also misses my point entirely. Playoffs is not the goal, growth is. They don't need to make the playoffs next season, they need to continue developing. Who they're competing with matters too. It would be reasonable to not consider Montreal a playoff contender in 2024-2025 if all of Suzuki, Caufield, Dach, Newhook and Slaf end up as 60-80 point players and Guhle establishes himself as a top pair D. Because that may not be enough to be better than the other teams in the division/conference. And even a tough season doesn't necessarily mean that there will be problems, because growth isn't linear.

Finishing near the bottom to making the playoffs with a young team is the definition of growth. I’d like our players to improve in order to improve results lol how hard is that to understand

 

[ReHabs]

Bergevin has rubbed off on you? Who wants to compete for 8th?? Who has the low standards?

These guys are building something they are going to call sustainable.....and they are not trying to get to 8th place.

Have some patience man..............we have been utter garbage since 2017 and I have said before it's not easy. The previous clown had 10 years...............this current guy has had 1.5 years....
Have some faith, at least the new guys have some brains....

I never said compete for 8th, I don’t know why everyone is intentionally misreading my commentary.

I’d like to see growth

That means this team will eventually finish in a playoff position

If it doesn’t happen this season, then I would like it to happen next season (2024-25)

If it doesn’t happen next season, I think that means the team didn’t grow enough and it’s players didn’t improve and gain in value (a big problem)

If tankers think this team can draft topX for two more years, they are implicitly saying they don’t expect sufficient development from the many youngsters on the roster including Dach, Newhook, Guhle, etc. I may be very critical but I find it hard to believe none of them will develop and grow.

The goal isn’t to make the playoffs, but an improved team will necessarily need to be a playoff team. And after that they need to win playoff rounds.

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest the Habs tank for years and then are expected to compete for the cup all of a sudden.

 

[ReHabs]

-Why? Making the playoffs doesn't inherently say anything about growth of a team, other than actually being able to compete for a cup. Winning more/getting more points is a better sign of growth, but even that isn't a perfect measure because of how much luck plays a role. Like, Colorado and Tampa are two recent cup winners who don't match that profile at all.

Going from last in the conference to middle of the conference is very much a sign of growth. It isn’t the goal or end-point and nobody said it is.

-You talking about when Guerin became GM in August of 2019? The Wild had two consensus top-15 prospects in the NHL (Kaprisov and Boldy) and a top-10 D-core in the NHL. And their cap situation still wasn't as bad as Montreal's was.

The Wild have had 14m in dead cap and lost a PPG winger in his 20s because of it. It's just one example. I don't think Montreal's situation was good but it wasn't awful either, especially considering they didn't need to compete in the first place -- a tanking team doesn't tend to have cap allocation problems because it doesn't tend to spend to the cap.

-I'm not saying Hughes didn't inherit assets, its that what he inherited wasn't all that significant. New GMs almost never inherit a full strip-down rebuild with zero assets. They either have young players of Suzuki and Caufield's ilk or better, veterans with substantial trade value, or both. I like Guhle's upside, but if you think a recent mid-1st who was consider a good but not great prospect is a guy worth mentioning then you're not actually paying attention to what other teams have/had.

If you’re so pro-tanking, you cannot also downplay Caufield, Suzuki, and others like Guhle. These are the sort of young players you have to be happy to get through the draft in the first place.

It’s not about comparing to any other team, but rather the point I’m making: with what he inherited, the team should be expected to show sufficient growth by Hughes’ fourth season as GM. 8th of 16 is the bare minimum.

-That's cool, but also misses my point entirely. Playoffs is not the goal, growth is. They don't need to make the playoffs next season, they need to continue developing. Who they're competing with matters too. It would be reasonable to not consider Montreal a playoff contender in 2024-2025 if all of Suzuki, Caufield, Dach, Newhook and Slaf end up as 60-80 point players and Guhle establishes himself as a top pair D. Because that may not be enough to be better than the other teams in the division/conference. And even a tough season doesn't necessarily mean that there will be problems, because growth isn't linear.

A tangible example of growth is when a team finishes a season ranked ahead of where they finished the previous seasons. I don’t understand how you can possibly find a way to disagree with this concept.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Going from last in the conference to middle of the conference is very much a sign of growth. It isn’t the goal or end-point and nobody said it is.

The Wild have had 14m in dead cap and lost a PPG winger in his 20s because of it. It's just one example. I don't think Montreal's situation was good but it wasn't awful either, especially considering they didn't need to compete in the first place -- a tanking team doesn't tend to have cap allocation problems because it doesn't tend to spend to the cap.

If you’re so pro-tanking, you cannot also downplay Caufield, Suzuki, and others like Guhle. These are the sort of young players you have to be happy to get through the draft in the first place.

It’s not about comparing to any other team, but rather the point I’m making: with what he inherited, the team should be expected to show sufficient growth by Hughes’ fourth season as GM. 8th of 16 is the bare minimum.

A tangible example of growth is when a team finishes a season ranked ahead of where they finished the previous seasons. I don’t understand how you can possibly find a way to disagree with this concept.

-That's not what you're saying though, you're talking about playoffs. Going from bottom two in the conference to 10th in the conference is a sign of growth as well, but is not making the playoffs.

-The Wild had 14m in dead cap as a consequence of a decision made by the new GM who came on board, which is the context we were discussing. And the situation was still not as bad as the one inherited by Hughes and Gordon.

-I'm not pro tanking, I'm anti-arbitrary and unreasonable expectations. Having guys like Caufield, Suzuki and Guhle are good. They don't match up to what almost every other team had/has.

-What? How do you think hockey works? Its ALL about comparing yourself to other teams. You get points by beating other teams. You typically need a better roster to win more frequently. If you don't want to compare yourself to other teams, then you can't use the standings as a sign of progress, because that's what standings are.

-And what I'm saying is that what he inherited was relatively bad. I'm also really confused why the only people that seem to not get that are segments within this fanbase. I want to see growth too, but 8th out of 16th at bare minimum is an arbitrary and idiotic way to measure growth.

-I don't? I'm saying that making the playoffs is an arbitrary distinction when it comes to growth. I'm saying that getting more points is one of many ways to measure growth. I'm also saying that growth isn't linear. NHL teams constantly take steps back before putting it all together. This insolated view of the Habs and what they need to do while ignoring what growth has meant and looked like in the modern NHL makes no sense.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'd say bottom 6

Doubt it. Why? I don't think we get into the same injury trouble. It was historic last season and I think they focus on health this year.

8-12 range pick is my bet. I would love another top 6 pick but I see them moving up slightly. If not for the injuries last year, we were not picking 5. I think our youth is a bit better and if you combine that with health, it tells me we move up

 

[larek]

Doubt it. Why? I don't think we get into the same injury trouble. It was historic last season and I think they focus on health this year.

8-12 range pick is my bet. I would love another top 6 pick but I see them moving up slightly. If not for the injuries last year, we were not picking 5. I think our youth is a bit better and if you combine that with health, it tells me we move up

This team doesn't have the depth
And Injuries will happen
Don't think besides caufield they have the scoring

 

[Frenchy]

This team doesn't have the depth
And Injuries will happen
Don't think besides caufield they have the scoring

It's the same thing for a lot of teams , now that we are living in a salary cap era. Many teams are in danger to be in serious trouble with one or two injuries to their roster.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This team doesn't have the depth
And Injuries will happen
Don't think besides caufield they have the scoring

I think we have above average depth. We have many prospects near NHL ready that will have to start AHL.

 

[larek]

I think we have above average depth. We have many prospects near NHL ready that will have to start AHL.

I'm mean proven depth in scoring -- 232 goals isn't going to do it !!

 

[habsterr]

Alex Edmundson just got injured again in camp. Another win trade for Hughes dumping him for draft picks.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Alex Edmundson

 

[habsterr]

Oops Joel ffs

 

[larek]

Alex Edmundson just got injured again in camp. Another win trade for Hughes dumping him for draft picks.

He better retire!
Wonder why reason are for all his Injuries
Seems to be a rash of Injuries in NHL over the last few years wonder what causing that??

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'm mean proven depth in scoring -- 232 goals isn't going to do it !!

I believe we scored 227 goals last season. That was 26th in the NHL. Then think about all the injuries we had to the top half of our line-up.

We allowed 305 goals which was 29th.

A little more goals for and a little less goals against and you're bottom 6 is surpassed.

Remember, there is not much difference from 5th last vs 8-12 range last year. We are talking about 1 win a month in the difference. I do see this team moving up if the injuries are not historic and more around the average amount. I don't think this is far fetched.

 

[larek]

I believe we scored 227 goals last season. That was 26th in the NHL. Then think about all the injuries we had to the top half of our line-up.

We allowed 305 goals which was 29th.

A little more goals for and a little less goals against and you're bottom 6 is surpassed.

Remember, there is not much difference from 5th last vs 8-12 range last year. We are talking about 1 win a month in the difference. I do see this team moving up if the injuries are not historic and more around the average amount. I don't think this is far fetched.

It's not far fetched- but also not far fetched this team could end up bottom 6
They've been last overall and 3rd overall from the bottom last 2 seasons - not crazy to think they could end up bottom 6
They haven't added a big gun type scorer
Which you would think would propel them out of bottom 6