Preparation trumps skill?

[torniojaws]

He was sent DOWN from the AHL if i recall correctly.

They discussed that during one of the articles after the gold game, and concluded it was basically due to contract reasons.

Blackhawks obviously had Crawford, and signed a deal with Collin Delia.
Which pushed Cam Ward to AHL, where they had Anton Forsberg on a 1-way contract.
Which then pushed their goalies down to ECHL in turns. And because Forsberg's contract and the fresh NHL contract of Delia, that left the "youngest" of them (Lankinen) as the odd-man-out.

I'm sure they'll try him out in the NHL next season, at least for 5 - 10 games, and then go from there for the 2020-21 season.

 

[koyvoo]

I still didn’t claim anything like what you put there. About 100 points NHL season being two times more impressive than a 50 points season in Liiga. Or that any people would be thinking like that. You yourself claimed for me to be saying that. So you created a very classic and poor straw man, by proposterously exaggerating and taking out of context what I had posted before. I posted exactly, that most Finnish top NHL players would most probably get around 70 points or even less in a full Liiga season. And maybe someone more, but that I’m practically sure that none of them would get over 85 points. What I said has nothing to do with what you claimed me saying with your classic straw man.

Seriously, just take the lesson, and try to learn first what a straw man is in an argument. Then when you learn what it is, you can start learning how to not create them anymore. They are the worst kind of debating and you will lose all your credibility, if you keep on creating them like you have done here now.

You said that people are dazzled by three magical letters and by bigger points totals in the NHL in comparison to point totals in euro leagues. It’s in your post, unless you edited (which I don’t think you did even though I’m not bothered to back and check), but that’s what you said. It’s suggesting most people don’t understand why NHL point totals are generally much higher and that they automatically assume those totals must mean a player accumulating them in the NHL must be better than players accumulating lower totals in euro leagues. It’s what you said clear as day. And it’s false. Most even halfway knowledgeable hockey don’t think thst the bigger gotosos put up in NHL player seasons means it makes them better than Euro players who don’t put up NHL type huge numbers.

 

[jj cale]

Me neither, that´s why i corrected you.

However i do agree with most things you say.

I don't think anything was corrected but if you are satiisfied with it that's fine with me.

 

[jj cale]

this is a bit of semantics already, but for me the right word would be visible. The difference is to me clearly visible but definitely not massive, and not in my opinion even really sizeable.

Interesting. It's too bad we will never get to put this to the test.

 

[Ippenator]

You said that people are dazzled by three magical letters and by bigger points totals in the NHL in comparison to point totals in euro leagues. It’s in your post, unless you edited (which I don’t think you did even though I’m not bothered to back and check), but that’s what you said. It’s suggesting most people don’t understand why NHL point totals are generally much higher and that they automatically assume those totals must mean a player accumulating them in the NHL must be better than players accumulating lower totals in euro leagues. It’s what you said clear as day. And it’s false. Most even halfway knowledgeable hockey don’t think thst the bigger gotosos put up in NHL player seasons means it makes them better than Euro players who don’t put up NHL type huge numbers.

No, I said that people are dazzled buy big point totals in general, meaning, that a great point total inside the NHL doesn’t by itself really tell the true picture of how good players are inside the same league. And then I still pointed out that those point amounts will not either make clear proof of how good those players are compared to other league’s top players. But I wasn’t by any means comparing the point totals between any separate leagues. You did that just by yourself. Either intentionally, or subconsciously. But I didn’t post anything like how you claimed. And didn’t even imply anything like that. Either you misunderstood what I posted, or you are intentionally misunderstanding what I posted. Doesnt’t really matter, as you are anyway creating straw men out of my posts, and that made that debate a wreck after all.

 

[koyvoo]

No, I said that people are dazzled buy big point totals in general, meaning, that a great point total inside the NHL doesn’t really tell the true picture of how good players are inside the same league. I wasn’t by any means comparing the point totals between any separate leagues. You did that just by yourself. Either intentionally, or subconsciously. But I didn’t post anything like how you claimed. And didn’t even imply anything like that. Either you misunderstood what I posted, or you are intentionally misunderstanding what I posted. Doesnt’t really matter, as you are anyway creating straw men out of my posts, and that made that debate a wreck after all.

And that’s wrong.

That’s your assumption that either people are very simple minded, or thst your overly smart.

The majority of even halfway knowledgeable hockey fans understand that big NHL totals doesn’t automatically mean better than players who don’t accumulate those totals in Euro leagues.

As I said when we started, you’ve got stop assuming people are so simple.

The reason people know that generally NHLers from whichever nation are so much better is because of the level of competition they gave and because it’s just clear to even a casual observer.

Someone doesn’t need to be a soccer fan in even the slightest to notice upon even a single viewing that Lionel Messi possesses far greater skill than his peers and noticing the vast difference in skill level between NHLers and lower leagues in a general sense is similar.

The Finns in the NHL are generally immeasurably note skillec than their Liiga counterparts. That’s way there would be no debating, even for a split second by a person building a best of Team Finland to build the team with 95% Finnish NHLers.

 

[Ippenator]

And that’s wrong.

That’s your assumption that either people are very simple minded, or thst your overly smart.

The majority of even halfway knowledgeable hockey fans understand that big NHL totals doesn’t automatically mean better than players who don’t accumulate those totals in Euro leagues.

As I said when we started, you’ve got stop assuming people are so simple.

The reason people know that generally NHLers from whichever nation are so much better is because of the level of competition they gave and because it’s just clear to even a casual observer.

Someone doesn’t need to be a soccer fan in even the slightest to notice upon even a single viewing that Lionel Messi possesses far greater skill than his peers and noticing the vast difference in skill level between NHLers and lower leagues in a general sense is similar.

The Finns in the NHL are generally immeasurably note skillec than their Liiga counterparts. That’s way there would be no debating, even for a split second by a person building a best of Team Finland to build the team with 95% Finnish NHLers. (What the hell are you even debating about here? I never debated about this. I just claimed that the difference just isn’t as big as you claim. I never said there wasn’t a difference and that the coach wouldn’t pick the best available players that would suite his game plan, yeah just keep on creating straw men after straw men.)

And there you go again with your awful straw men. You are absolutely amazing. No use really to discuss anything with you. You are way too manipulative for having discussions with you here. Just have your way I guess, although it’s really sad and pathetic.

 

[koyvoo]

And there you go again with your awful straw men. You are absolutely amazing. No use really to discuss anything with you. You are way too manipulative for having discussions here. Just have you way I guess, although it’s really sad and pathetic.

As I mentioned earlier when you suggested the conversation should die (before you replied to it again) I’m fine with letting the conversation die and remaining in disagreement.

 

[stonec]

Everything Finns shoot the puck it went in, the luck really on their side this time.

Only in the finals. Finland completely out-shot Sweden and had almost the same number of shots as Russia, including one goal post and one puck on goal line situation.

 

[stonec]

Interesting. It's too bad we will never get to put this to the test.

Well it did sort of get put into test, as Finland won Canada (twice), lost to USA only after overtime, won Sweden, won Russia and also won Russia and Czechs in the preparing tournament games. There's already quite a bit of a sample size that Euro players can play against teams full of NHL stars without there being a huge difference. Sure, there is a difference in skill, but the difference is small enough that a good strategy and team effort can overcome this difference.

 

[Merya]

Team Finland was fantastic, but lets be honest, 9 out of 10 times they would have lost to Russia or Canada. All the puck luck aligned for them. The Sweden game was surprisingly even.

8/10 against Canada, please. We won them twice already.

 

[jj cale]

Well it did sort of get put into test, as Finland won Canada (twice), lost to USA only after overtime, won Sweden, won Russia and also won Russia and Czechs in the preparing tournament games. There's already quite a bit of a sample size that Euro players can play against teams full of NHL stars without there being a huge difference. Sure, there is a difference in skill, but the difference is small enough that a good strategy and team effort can overcome this difference.

Only sort of, there is a difference between a nhl all star laden team and any team that was at this tournament facing the finns, in fact just a few years ago a very strong Canadian team in upper tier nhl talent but what was was still far off what their best team would be pretty much dismatled every team in it's path at the WHC , they needed no special tactics or great goaltending to do this either, they simple took everyone apart with a higher degree of skill, it was a juggernaut, this Finnish team was not, 3 very close games were needed to get that gold and this Canadian team was nowhere near the skill level of that 2015 TC squad, not even close.. Care to think what would have happened to this Finnish team against that team? They basically were clearly outplayed in 2 out of 3 periods in the gold medal game against a much weaker Team Canada then that 2015 prague Team Canada, it wouldn't likely have been pretty this past Sunday against that 2015 Team Canada. And again, even that 2015 team Canada was no all star nhl team of all the best talent the league has from all the big countries.

This was a great victory for the Finnish team but let's not get carried away here, a motivated nhl all star team would smoke it.

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

All of them, Sweden, Russia, and Canada should've win Team Finland. Easily. That didn't happen.

Maybe depth of Finnish player pool isn't that shallow that is often claimed (also by Finns themselves), particularly if given enough time to form coherent unit under quality coaching. Like it was the case this time.

Before every game all of those teams were overwhelming favorites. But goals scored is what counts in a game of hockey. Finns were better in scoring them, and better in preventing goals against.

Simulated 4 team continuous series with these teams would probably place Team Finland rather soon to 4th place, where it would stay there after into the eternity had sample be let grow toward an infinite.

So many things were perfect fit in this tournament for Finns that nobody can just put it solely onto "luck".

 

[jj cale]

All of them, Sweden, Russia, and Canada should've win Team Finland. Easily. That didn't happen.

Maybe depth of Finnish player pool isn't that shallow that is often claimed (also by Finns themselves), particularly if given enough time to form coherent unit under quality coaching. Like it was the case this time.

Before every game all of those teams were overwhelming favorites. But goals scored is what counts in a game of hockey. Finns were better in scoring them, and better in preventing goals against.

Simulated 4 team continuous series with these teams would probably place Team Finland rather soon to 4th place, where it would stay there after into the eternity had sample be let grow toward an infinite.

So many things were perfect fit in this tournament for Finns that nobody can just put it solely onto "luck".

The Finns depth is far better then people give credit for and it's getting better all the time and no.............they did not win because of luck.

 

[stonec]

This was a great victory for the Finnish team but let's not get carried away here, a motivated nhl all star team would smoke it.

2015 Canada was awesome indeed, I agree it would have been difficult to beat a dream team like that.

It's interesting though that team Finland in this tournament was not even an elite Euro team, it was more like a category B team of Euro players, yet it was enough to beat Russians and Swedes who both had "all-star" NHL teams with almost maximal representation of their NHL players. It would have been possible to assemble another full team just from the Finnish KHL players who said no. Actually the center depth would have been much better than with the team that just won. Well, I guess it's speculation, but it's fun to speculate.

Team of KHL players not in tournament:

Juha Metsola
Joni Ortio

Juuso Hietanen
Jyrki Jokipakka
Joonas Järvinen
Tommi Kivistö
Ville Lajunen
Sami Lepistö

Miro Aaltonen
Jonas Enlund
Teemu Hartikainen
Jesse Joensuu
Pekka Jormakka
Joonas Kemppainen
Petri Kontiola
Jarno Koskiranta
Mika Niemi
Iiro Pakarinen
Olli Palola
Jukka Peltola
Antti Pihlström
Teemu Pulkkinen
Juuso Puustinen
Mikael Ruohomaa

 

[jj cale]

2015 Canada was awesome indeed, I agree it would have been difficult to beat a dream team like that.

It's interesting though that team Finland in this tournament was not even an elite Euro team, it was more like a category B team of Euro players, yet it was enough to beat Russians and Swedes who both had "all-star" NHL teams with almost maximal representation of their NHL players. It would have been possible to assemble another full team just from the Finnish KHL players who said no. Actually the center depth would have been much better than with the team that just won. Well, I guess it's speculation, but it's fun to speculate.

Team of KHL players not in tournament:

Juha Metsola
Joni Ortio

Juuso Hietanen
Jyrki Jokipakka
Joonas Järvinen
Tommi Kivistö
Ville Lajunen
Sami Lepistö

Miro Aaltonen
Jonas Enlund
Teemu Hartikainen
Jesse Joensuu
Pekka Jormakka
Joonas Kemppainen
Petri Kontiola
Jarno Koskiranta
Mika Niemi
Iiro Pakarinen
Olli Palola
Jukka Peltola
Antti Pihlström
Teemu Pulkkinen
Juuso Puustinen
Mikael Ruohomaa

yes, it would have been interesting though i wonder if a team made up of these guys would have been a better "team".


I dunno,all the stars in the sky seemed to align for the Finnish squad this year, i mean, who would have thought that say, Antilla for example would be such a difference maker? he may not be a star in liga but you could have legitimately called him one this tournament, I doubt he ever plays as effective hockey again the rest of his career but in this tournament he was a real damn good player.
Anyway, I don't know what else to say about team Finland this year, ...........it was like it was meant to be or something, sometimes it just goes like that.

Quite a performance, it needed some things to go their way but what can you say? well deserved.

 

[Lambo]

Interessting are the shot on goal statistics. The Finns has 7 from 10 games paritially clearly more shots on goal than the opponent. Very impressed vs Sweden 32 -18 shots. Vs Russia 29-32 and USA 26 - 29 is not big difference. Only Canada dominated the finns in Final with 44-22.

 

[FiLe]

Only Canada dominated the finns in Final with 44-22.

Even more telling is the third period SOG of the gold medal game - Canada 21, Finland 3. So it's actually quite easy to feel for the Canadians who think that they didn't get what they deserved here. It was a tie game as the period began, and they then shot more than twenty times in the third period and couldn't solve Lankinen. Finland shot three times, and two of those went in.

 

[llwyd]

Only sort of, there is a difference between a nhl all star laden team and any team that was at this tournament facing the finns, in fact just a few years ago a very strong Canadian team in upper tier nhl talent but what was was still far off what their best team would be pretty much dismatled every team in it's path at the WHC , they needed no special tactics or great goaltending to do this either, they simple took everyone apart with a higher degree of skill, it was a juggernaut, this Finnish team was not, 3 very close games were needed to get that gold and this Canadian team was nowhere near the skill level of that 2015 TC squad, not even close.

That's quite a typical North American view, I mean "no special tactics"... - I thought what made them so great was not so much individual skill, I mean there have been many Canadian teams with lots of skill but no such domination. What made that year's team so spectacular was that it really played highly tactical, totally disciplined and amazingly speedy hockey. It was bit like Finland when it came to unified and disciplined team game but combined with amazing individual skill and speed. Have not seen anything like that in WHC since the Red Machine in the 1980's. (And not in many best-on-best tournaments since either.)

 

[Ippenator]

Even more telling is the third period SOG of the gold medal game - Canada 21, Finland 3. So it's actually quite easy to feel for the Canadians who think that they didn't get what they deserved here. It was a tie game as the period began, and they then shot more than twenty times in the third period and couldn't solve Lankinen. Finland shot three times, and two of those went in.

Although this also shows exactly that shot statistics by themselves don’t really tell too much about how the games have really gone. Of course Canada would have a lot of shots anyway in that 3rd period. They were losing 1-2 in the beginning of the period, so it was quite certain that they would come very active to that period. Then about 5 minutes before the end Finland counter attacked and scored the 1-3 goal, which right away put Canada to desperation mode where they were really shooting like crazy and clearly just trying to get the puck somehow to the net for something to happen.

Canada also pulled off the goalie when there was still over 3 minutes left and got loads of shots through the pressure that they created with the extra player and their desperation.

But despite all this, the amounts that Lankinen made some really amazing standing on his head-saves weren’t really that huge. He did have some great saves for sure, but most of the shots were still quite easy and desperate ones where he wasn’t too well screened and the Finnish defencemen took most of the rebounds very easily. How the scoring was distributed made a big influence on the shot totals. And shot totals mean very little by themselves when looking at how a game has gone in reality.

 

[Ippenator]

All of them, Sweden, Russia, and Canada should've win Team Finland. Easily. That didn't happen.

Maybe depth of Finnish player pool isn't that shallow that is often claimed (also by Finns themselves), particularly if given enough time to form coherent unit under quality coaching. Like it was the case this time.

Before every game all of those teams were overwhelming favorites. But goals scored is what counts in a game of hockey. Finns were better in scoring them, and better in preventing goals against.

Simulated 4 team continuous series with these teams would probably place Team Finland rather soon to 4th place, where it would stay there after into the eternity had sample be let grow toward an infinite.

So many things were perfect fit in this tournament for Finns that nobody can just put it solely onto "luck".

I don’t think what you are saying would really be true at all - unless the coaching class for the teams would have gotten somehow miraculously switched. With the coaching that the teams were having in the tournament, Finland would have most likely just kept on winning more of the games than their opponents.

 

[FiLe]

But despite all this, the amounts that Lankinen made some really amazing standing on his head-saves weren’t really that huge. He did have some great saves for sure, but most of the shots were still quite easy and desperate ones where he wasn’t too well screened and the Finnish defencemen took most of the rebounds very easily. How the scoring was distributed made a big influence on the shot totals. And shot totals mean very little by themselves when looking at how a game has gone in reality.

I agree that most of the shots by Canada were easy perimeter ones, coming from the standard positions. Any goalie worth his salt (and Lankinen is one) picks up about 95% of those kind as long as he sees them, and about 85% of those that are screened simply by proper positioning.

But because these percentages will never be 100, it does lead to a situation in which shooting a lot usually leads to some success. If the percentage for these kind of shots is around 95, then approximately one in twenty does go in. And it's not like Finland got all three out of prime chances. Anttila's GWG was arguably one, but the late safety one by Pesonen had a lot of luck involved, even if there was a decent screen. It was one of those 85-percenters.

Yes, the shot totals don't tell the whole story, but in this case they do tell us a story that does not quite respond to the end result. The statistics are so overwhelming in Canada's favor that it should have at least gotten them to overtime in most games.

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

I don’t think what you are saying would really be true at all - unless the coaching class for the teams would have gotten somehow miraculously switched. With the coaching that the teams were having in the tournament, Finland would have most likely just kept on winning more of the games than their opponents.

We will never be sure.

I said what I said taking account also the fact that in long series Finnish tactics would be likely counter-adapted and cracked by all of those teams combined on average more individually skilled players.

If that scenario wouldn't be true there are only two potential explanations:

1) NHL scouting taken as a whole sucks soooooooooo deep to its bare bones and their core.
2) Jalonen was embodiment of archangel and coaching staff and players angels coming from other planes of existence to keep some fun.

I take it these both scenarios rather unlikely to happen...

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Finland's D team was able to beat Sweden B team, Russia A team and Canada C team. I take it.

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

Thought experiment. Let Sweden, Russia, and Canada play with their recent teams but:

Pool Finnish C+/D- European players together with entire pool of top Finnish coaches and randomize then roster spots (tho, building rational teams what comes to players' roles) and staff positions for the Team Finland(s). While I take it as granted that on average such Teams would perform better than expected, its very hard to think and believe that every team roughly equal to Actual Winners (on paper) would just consistently beat those teams of Sweden, Russia, and Canada.

However, I think that every random complement of Finns under coaching of The Guru would perform better than teams operating under other Finnish coaches.

Then, in long series, I would think it plain obvious that ALL teams playing there would slowly adapt and model their game plan, tactics following The Example of The Guru-led Team Finlands of C/D pool Euro-Finns. --> which would surely lead to situation where the advantage coming from that itself would diminish, lowering the impact of The Guru -effect.

There cannot be such level of systematic process of mis-evaluation and mis-scouting by NHL (and related orgs.) that quality of players of The Winners would've been misplaced several tiers too low. Its statistically and logically impossible scenario.

...

Jalonen is NHL-ready.