Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[AintLifeGrand]

If I recall, the area around Truist is built up, and it wouldn't be very feasible to do something like that now, but I'm not certain if it'd have been feasible around the time of the first sale (2004) or the second one (2011).

That said, Cobb would be fine for a team. The area around Truist is close to the city, while also being closer to the northwest suburbs/exurbs of Atlanta (Marietta, Kennesaw, Canton) where a large number of hockey fans do live. There's also infrastructure in the area, as Truist is near both I-285 (the ring road around Atlanta) and I-75.. The downside to that area is the distance from the majority of metro Atlanta's hockey fans, which are closer to the arena locations proposed by Krause and Carter alike.

While I don't think a team would fail in Alpharetta (be it the Fulton side of Forsyth side of the county line), one simply can't look at a map and tell me there aren't infrastructure challenges there that don't exist in the area around Truist.

The area around Truist is ideal as it sits on the Perimeter of Atlanta making it equally convenient for people living outside and inside the Perimeter to access it.

The Cobb Galleria and Cumberland Mall- both declining properties could be redeveloped into a Battery Type situation that an Arena anchors.

The team is going to fail in Forysthe county, as that location is going to make it burdensome for a huge % of the fanbase (City of Atlanta, ITP Sandy Springs, Vinings, Smyrna, Midtown, Decatur, CDC/Emory Area, Tucker, East Gwinnett Co) to attend weeknight games. The population of the Ga 400 corridor does not have the population base to sell out 16,000 seats 41 nights a year.

Additionally, a good portion of ITP Thrasher fans have already chosen to "Boycott" the team by pledging to not support a team located in Forsythe county.

Within a decade Quebec will have their team because nobody wants to travel 90 minutes outside the city to watch hockey around a bunch of strip malls and chain restaurants

 

[dj4aces]

Within a decade Quebec will have their team because nobody wants to travel 90 minutes outside the city to watch hockey around a bunch of strip malls and chain restaurants

This ignores the reason the Thrashers moved in the first place, as attendance wasn't at all a reason, despite Atlanta Spirit's most valiant attempts to make the market look as horrible as possible.

As I said before, the league will conduct its own due diligence, if it hasn't already. If the league is satisfied with the proposed locations either Krause or Carter has selected, then that's where the team will be. But if you know someone who'd buy up Cumberland or the Galleria and redevelop it, you should reach out to them and have them throw their hat in the ring. Better late than never, right?

But you're not going to convince Krause (who has already done a ton of legwork and has a proposal ready for the league's perusal) or Carter (who has the current owner of NPM on standby ready to pay out-of-pocket to build an arena) to change course. The ITP folks boycotting -- assuming that's actually a thing -- will get over it the moment the new team makes the playoffs.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The area around Truist is ideal as it sits on the Perimeter of Atlanta making it equally convenient for people living outside and inside the Perimeter to access it.

The Cobb Galleria and Cumberland Mall- both declining properties could be redeveloped into a Battery Type situation that an Arena anchors.

The team is going to fail in Forysthe county, as that location is going to make it burdensome for a huge % of the fanbase (City of Atlanta, ITP Sandy Springs, Vinings, Smyrna, Midtown, Decatur, CDC/Emory Area, Tucker, East Gwinnett Co) to attend weeknight games. The population of the Ga 400 corridor does not have the population base to sell out 16,000 seats 41 nights a year.

Additionally, a good portion of ITP Thrasher fans have already chosen to "Boycott" the team by pledging to not support a team located in Forsythe county.

Within a decade Quebec will have their team because nobody wants to travel 90 minutes outside the city to watch hockey around a bunch of strip malls and chain restaurants

No it’s not… Forsyth and Gwinnett are a couple of the fastest growing counties in the country. That’s where the incomes are at too.

Those intown locations you mentioned already had a downtown team.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

No it’s not… Forsyth and Gwinnett are a couple of the fastest growing counties in the country. That’s where the incomes are at too.

Those intown locations you mentioned already had a downtown team.

Gwinnett is growing quickly but not with demographics that have a natural inclination to hockey. Outside of the far Western reaches of Gwinnett where there is some money with the St Marlo CC, the county as a whole is witnessing a precipitous decline...Lawrenceville, Lilburn, Snellville , Duluth are all unrecognizable. I would be shocked if English is still the predominant language spoken at home amongst the populous there.

Growing up, my trips to Gwinnett- mainly to play hockey were enjoyable because so much infastructure was new- new shopping centers, wide, nicely manicured boulevards, Discover Mills, the Mall of GA etc.

Currently, Gwinnett doesnt even seem like its part of Atlanta, let alone Georiga.

Forsythe County might as well be Winnipeg

 

[dj4aces]

Gwinnett is growing quickly but not with demographics that have a natural inclination to hockey. Outside of the far Western reaches of Gwinnett where there is some money with the St Marlo CC, the county as a whole is witnessing a precipitous decline...Lawrenceville, Lilburn, Snellville , Duluth are all unrecognizable. I would be shocked if English is still the predominant language spoken at home amongst the populous there.

As someone who lives in Duluth, you should start practicing your shocked face.

While I know exactly what the coded message is behind mentioning "demographics", you also seem unaware that one of the largest selling points for a team in metro Atlanta is the varied demographics in and around metro Atlanta, not just in north Fulton, Gwinnett, and south Forsyth counties.

Some teams (I believe the Stars, Golden Knights, and Panthers) have broadcasts in Spanish as well as in English. Omni TV in Canada broadcasts Hockey Night In Canada: Punjabi Edition every Saturday night. The point is, interest is growing for the sport in non-white segments of the population across North America. To say the league is interested in attracting other demographics to the sport would be an incredible understatement.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Gwinnett is growing quickly but not with demographics that have a natural inclination to hockey. Outside of the far Western reaches of Gwinnett where there is some money with the St Marlo CC, the county as a whole is witnessing a precipitous decline...Lawrenceville, Lilburn, Snellville , Duluth are all unrecognizable. I would be shocked if English is still the predominant language spoken at home amongst the populous there.

Growing up, my trips to Gwinnett- mainly to play hockey were enjoyable because so much infastructure was new- new shopping centers, wide, nicely manicured boulevards, Discover Mills, the Mall of GA etc.

Currently, Gwinnett doesnt even seem like its part of Atlanta, let alone Georiga.

Forsythe County might as well be Winnipeg

You can tell you ITP friends that they already boycotted a team years ago and it didn’t turn out well.

All the money and population have moved around the northern arc. Just ask Mark Toro who built Avalon (a couple miles from the new team) and is building another one in Gwinnett/Forsyth.

 

[AintLifeGrand]

You can tell you ITP friends that they already boycotted a team years ago and it didn’t turn out well.

All the money and population have moved around the northern arc. Just ask Mark Toro who built Avalon (a couple miles from the new team) and is building another one in Gwinnett/Forsyth.

The institutional money and influence is in Buckhead, Ansley Park, Virginia Highlands, Brookhaven, ITP Sandy springs and Vinings .

I’ve found majority of people living OTP are transplants with very little tangible connection to Atlanta and it’s culture and history.

If the team doesn’t engage or capture the attention of folks in this area + the majority African American parts of the City of Atlanta the team has no right to have any part of Atlanta in its name.

Would be stolen valor .

As I said, Forsythe County might as well be Winnipeg .

Forsythe County is to Atlanta as Anaheim is to LA

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

The institutional money and influence is in Buckhead, Ansley Park, Virginia Highlands, Brookhaven, ITP Sandy springs and Vinings .

I’ve found majority of people living OTP are transplants with very little tangible connection to Atlanta and it’s culture and history.

If the team doesn’t engage or capture the attention of folks in this area + the majority African American parts of the City of Atlanta the team has no right to have any part of Atlanta in its name.

Would be stolen valor .

As I said, Forsythe County might as well be Winnipeg .

Forsythe County is to Atlanta as Anaheim is to LA

And as I said, there was already a team in Midtown. Forsyth will be awesome.

 

[GreenHornet]

And as I said, there was already a team in Midtown. Forsyth will be awesome.

Hate to be THAT guy, but the team was more downtown than midtown. That said, your point still stands.

 

[dj4aces]

I’ve found majority of people living OTP are transplants with very little tangible connection to Atlanta and it’s culture and history.

If the team doesn’t engage or capture the attention of folks in this area + the majority African American parts of the City of Atlanta the team has no right to have any part of Atlanta in its name.

The Thrashers STHers I knew, including the one who often gave me his +1 ticket, were or are all from Georgia/Atlanta, born here, grew up here, had roots and their own businesses here. What's more is, they all lived outside the perimeter. Some of them way outside the perimeter, such as Canton, Dawsonville or Dahlonega. The friend I referenced above lived north of Canton, after I-575 becomes GA-515.

And therein lies the problem with this desire to have the team ITP. The majority of former season ticket holders. As has been stated before in this thread... while a downtown/midtown location for the franchise works swimmingly in some cities, Atlanta isn't one of them where it would.

Other than Peachtree City, there's currently nothing that would draw fans from the southside of town unless they're transplants... and Henry and Fayette counties both attract folks, albeit at a lower rate than northside suburbs. The ITP locations might have money, but they're not gonna fill a building (they never did before).

That leaves the northside. Cobb, Cheroke, Gwinnett, Forsyth, north Fulton, and Hall counties. Alpharetta is a decent location, as was illustrated before, because of its proximity to money and former season ticket holders. From what I've been told by folks older than I am, the majority of Flames season ticket holders lived north of town then, too.

So... could a team do well near Truist/The Battery? Or at Lenox, where I've seen more than a few people propose such an idea? Perhaps. The problem would be traffic, as Atlanta isa very car-centric region. The disdain for mass transit options is legendary in this region. It would take that desire for mass transit *and* a drive to implement it for a team ITP -- be it near The Battery or at Lenox -- to have a snowball's chance of working.

Atlanta is a city of ~502k people in a metro area of ~6.4 million, where the majority of them live north of town. It's smart business sense to put your business where your clientele are, not where you want them to be, and not where you think they'll want to be in five or ten years.

 

[sneakytitz]

The area around Truist is ideal as it sits on the Perimeter of Atlanta making it equally convenient for people living outside and inside the Perimeter to access it.

The Cobb Galleria and Cumberland Mall- both declining properties could be redeveloped into a Battery Type situation that an Arena anchors.

Anchor across a highway and across a street that you posited would be the "ideal" location? Give it a rest.

Cobb Galleria and Galleria/Piedmont REIT are not hurting. Neither is Interstate North. Cumberland Mall is currently 98% occupied and Tallulah is full. Stop these tropes that the area around Truist is hurting, it isn't.

 

[sneakytitz]

Apropos to none, 14 years ago today the Thrashers played their last game.

 

[nhlfan79]

Fresh content today from The AJC about the nearly dead North Point Mall location, which includes a passing reference to Anson Carter and his bid for an NHL expansion franchise and designs to redevelop the site into an arena. It doesn't say anything new, as both Carter and New York life (the owner of the property) declined to comment on the story, but it's an interesting read anyway.

GDPR Support

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Fresh content today from The AJC about the nearly dead North Point Mall location, which includes a passing reference to Anson Carter and his bid for an NHL expansion franchise and designs to redevelop the site into an arena. It doesn't say anything new, as both Carter and New York life (the owner of the property) declined to comment on the story, but it's an interesting read anyway.

GDPR Support

Can you paste in the paragraphs that discuss the hockey? Firewall.

 

[GreenHornet]

Can you paste in the paragraphs that discuss the hockey? Firewall.

Here is the portion that talks about the Carter group's interest. Nothing new here, though I am disappointed at the framing of Atlanta's NHL past in the third graph.

"Former NHL player Anson Carter and partners announced plans a year ago to build a hockey arena and woo an expansion NHL franchise that would anchor a transformation of the mall complex. Carter’s group is one of two metro Atlanta partnerships looking to land an expansion team. The other is in Forsyth County, a few exits north of North Point along Ga. 400.

It’s unclear if the NHL will make a third attempt at pro hockey in the Atlanta area after the Flames and Thrashers failed to thrive.

Carter’s group and the NHL declined to comment. New York Life, the mall’s owner, did not respond to multiple requests for comment."


They also quote Georgia State University associate professor of Urban Studies Jean-Paul Addie throughout the article and this is take on the hockey arena idea, FWIW.

"The city of Alpharetta is placing its bets on what Addie calls “tiny built islands of walkability in a sea of automobility,” like Avalon and what the city hopes will become of North Point in 30 years’ time. But he warned of development that merely mimics the success of others and fails to consider the wants and needs of diverse demographic and income brackets.

Developments like a hockey arena would add very little direct economic value to Alpharetta residents, he said, encouraging the city to focus on “less splashy but more meaningful forms of inclusive development.”

'When you look at the crisis of the mall, it’s an opportunity to think about doing things differently,' Addie said. 'What type of city, suburb, municipality do we want to be? How do we take the opportunity that’s presented by reimagining these spaces to do something that is sustainable, creative, equitable? That’s the importance the mall has to us now.'”

 

[nhlfan79]

Developments like a hockey arena would add very little direct economic value to Alpharetta residents, he said, encouraging the city to focus on “less splashy but more meaningful forms of inclusive development.”

'When you look at the crisis of the mall, it’s an opportunity to think about doing things differently,' Addie said. 'What type of city, suburb, municipality do we want to be? How do we take the opportunity that’s presented by reimagining these spaces to do something that is sustainable, creative, equitable? That’s the importance the mall has to us now.'”

Yeah, who would want a thriving Battery-like commercial development as a focus feature in their city? What an odd take.

 

[TheLegend]

Yeah, who would want a thriving Battery-like commercial development as a focus feature in their city? What an odd take.

It's the canned "economist" answer.

 

[dj4aces]

So... trying to read between the lines of bad writing that may or may not have been written and/or edited by AI, either Carter is playing 4D chess, or Carter is out and no one wants to talk about it.

For now though, all eyes are on Krause. He's supposed to give a presentation to the league, if he hasn't done so already. If I were a betting man, I'd say his presentation would come after the CBA has been agreed to, as that's the main business going on right now, Just my guess though, as the only folks who know anything about the process at this point are Krause, Bettman, Daly, and the owners.

For Carter, those waters appear pretty murky. The map of the redevelopment proposal that was put forth seems to give a strong indicator that it could support an arena, businesses, and residences. The green space being created would transform the asphalt wasteland that is a mall parking lot into something that's at least easier to look at. It can be done with or without an arena. Hell, turn North Point into a city park, if you're not gonna put in an arena.

It's clear that Carter is playing with his hand close to his vest, and the only people who know what he's really planning are he and his investors. But the article certainly paints a picture, and it's not pretty when one considers the idea of NPM redevelopment for a mixed-use development.

 

[aqib]

Yeah, who would want a thriving Battery-like commercial development as a focus feature in their city? What an odd take.

No matter how good of a deal you make you always have to deal with the CAVE people. Citizens Against Virtually Everything.

It's the canned "economist" answer.

The Field of Schemes Crowd. The first thing they do is restrict their calculations to only the streams they deem relevant and they assume a 100% substitution effect. That's not always true. If the Braves picked some other county, you don't know that people would still spend the same money in Cobb County, they may have spent that money in whatever place the Braves went. Secondly, he acts as if sports subsidies are the death of cities. He has this long post about how the Braves deal is terrible for Cobb County: Cobb County residents are losing $15m a year on Braves stadium, comprehensive study finds
Now even if he is right that its costing $15 million a year, Cobb's budget is $624 million. So 2.4% of the budget goes to this. If people in Cobb County like having the Battery and having the Braves nearby its worth 2.4% of the tax bill having them nearby for quality of life.

 

[RoyalAir]

So... trying to read between the lines of bad writing that may or may not have been written and/or edited by AI, either Carter is playing 4D chess, or Carter is out and no one wants to talk about it.

For now though, all eyes are on Krause. He's supposed to give a presentation to the league, if he hasn't done so already. If I were a betting man, I'd say his presentation would come after the CBA has been agreed to, as that's the main business going on right now, Just my guess though, as the only folks who know anything about the process at this point are Krause, Bettman, Daly, and the owners.

From a pure PR perspective, Krause has outmaneuvered Carter every step of the way. He's been more organized, had greater results, has better relationships with his county officials, and has certainly been more of a "Face" for this project than has Carter.

This is really quite surprising to me, however. Carter should have every natural advantage in this "race," as he is a former player, has TV access, currently owns a local team, and has partners with deep money. But I've got to think Krause is the horse to beat at this point.

 

[aqib]

From a pure PR perspective, Krause has outmaneuvered Carter every step of the way. He's been more organized, had greater results, has better relationships with his county officials, and has certainly been more of a "Face" for this project than has Carter.

This is really quite surprising to me, however. Carter should have every natural advantage in this "race," as he is a former player, has TV access, currently owns a local team, and has partners with deep money. But I've got to think Krause is the horse to beat at this point.

Does the PR matter as much as what the league wants? Like would there be any blowback if Carter is working behind the scenes and comes up with a good proposal at the end it?

The one problem I see with Carter's bid (from afar) is that he is the face and not the money. While Krause is both.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Does the PR matter as much as what the league wants? Like would there be any blowback if Carter is working behind the scenes and comes up with a good proposal at the end it?

The one problem I see with Carter's bid (from afar) is that he is the face and not the money. While Krause is both.

I think it's more a "shovel-to-dirt" advantage for Krause. He's been public about his bid, has held county meetings, been on the news for interviews, and has graded land ready to pour a foundation on. With Carter, all we have is a one-time public statement which now happened about a year ago. Old mall is still there, no plans presented, no renderings, nothing that we know of with the local government... This isn't to say that Carter isn't going completely secret along with the league, but a year in, and it appears it's too quiet.

I will note that I've always been skeptical of Carter. I appreciate his passion for hockey in Atlanta, but he's been nothing but talk with ownership (he was the same when the Thrashers were sold) and his ownership of the ECHL team seems shaky at best (minimal marketing outside of one night, arena isn't in great condition).

 

[RoyalAir]

Does the PR matter as much as what the league wants? Like would there be any blowback if Carter is working behind the scenes and comes up with a good proposal at the end it?

The one problem I see with Carter's bid (from afar) is that he is the face and not the money. While Krause is both.

Ultimately, no, it doesn't. The biggest hurdle I can see from Carter's perspective is also his proposal's greatest asset: Fulton County.

The politics of metro Atlanta have changed a great deal since I last lived there, I'm sure. But historically, Fulton County is very difficult to work with. Alpharetta is a tax base for ATL proper, but rarely, if ever, gets its back scratched in return. Krause seemingly has a much better relationship with Forsyth County than most anyone would have with Fulton (at least from what we can see). Remember, it took Arthur Blank more than 10 years to make MBS happen, and few people in the history of the region have ever done more for the city of Atlanta.

Is Carter like the proverbial G in lasagna, moving silently, or is he in a great deal over his head? If it's the former, he'll get his shot at the team. If it's the latter, the NHL will gladly cast its lot with Krause.

 

[aqib]

I think it's more a "shovel-to-dirt" advantage for Krause. He's been public about his bid, has held county meetings, been on the news for interviews, and has graded land ready to pour a foundation on. With Carter, all we have is a one-time public statement which now happened about a year ago. Old mall is still there, no plans presented, no renderings, nothing that we know of with the local government... This isn't to say that Carter isn't going completely secret along with the league, but a year in, and it appears it's too quiet.

I will note that I've always been skeptical of Carter. I appreciate his passion for hockey in Atlanta, but he's been nothing but talk with ownership (he was the same when the Thrashers were sold) and his ownership of the ECHL team seems shaky at best (minimal marketing outside of one night, arena isn't in great condition).

It doesn't look like his entertainment company has been the type of runaway hit that would get him a big stake in and NHL team. I don't know what his other business interests are.

Is Carter like the proverbial G in lasagna, moving silently, or is he in a great deal over his head? If it's the former, he'll get his shot at the team. If it's the latter, the NHL will gladly cast its lot with Krause.

So just reading tea leaves since I am bored here. He seems like he would be like Jeter with the Marlins. Jeter was 4% owner of the team. He was the face of ownership no one saw Bruce Sherman. It didn't work. The only cases of a former players owning a team working out were Mario Lemieux and Jerry Richardson. Lemieux obviously was able to take over the Pens because he was owed so much money when the team went into bankruptcy, while Richardson had a short playing career and built a billion dollar business outside of sports and bought the Panthers over 30 years later.

Now looking at his group, Liebman is part of the Texas Rangers ownership group. Simon seems do have part ownership of Ipswich Town who is about to be relegated from the Premier League, following back-to-back promotions. So there maybe the money behind him. I guess it just comes down to how many owners the league wants in a group and do they want a figurehead as the front man.

 

[RoyalAir]

Now looking at his group, Liebman is part of the Texas Rangers ownership group. Simon seems do have part ownership of Ipswich Town who is about to be relegated from the Premier League, following back-to-back promotions. So there maybe the money behind him. I guess it just comes down to how many owners the league wants in a group and do they want a figurehead as the front man.

The NHL would be very, very wise to avoid a large group - especially if that group has other sports interests (eg, they would want a sizable voice). Atlanta would 100% still have the Thrashers if the NHL had vetoed the ASG in the first place.

Infighting for control is a recipe for disaster. If Krause has deep backers that are A-OK with being silent partners, then he's the guy, regardless of whatever ties to the League Carter has.