Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[dj4aces]

Like I said every team has a marketing/community outreach department. Its just the extent to which Atlanta and other "non-traditional" market supporters make it out as if they need to be catered to in order to embrace the sport while fans in other markets are willing to walk on broken glass to get a team.

People in so-called "non-traditional markets" don't necessarily need to be "catered to". At least, not more than they're "catered to" in traditional markets. It's just the needs of the franchises in new markets will be different from those needs in traditional markets.

Every franchise, new and old, are looking for ways to make the bar bigger. After all, bigger bar is better, The bigger the bar, the more the revenue. The more revenue there is, the healthier and more valuable the franchise is.

Honestly, I'd love for you to do some traveling and actually attend games here and in other sunbelt markets and talk to the fans, or even read some of your own posts and try to empathize with fans in Atlanta and elsewhere.

As much as your posts often offend me, I can't help but feel sorry for you.

This has a "Son... I'm not mad, I'm disappointed" kinda vibe. Stone cold.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I hope Carter wins,t the closer to downtown Atlanta the better.

 

[aqib]

What did "non-traditional" markets ever do to you? Seriously I've been here for years and you're consistently one of the most virulent "south is bad" people here. This attitude of yours makes me sad. Hockey is a fantastic game and this elitism and exclusion crap is such a waste of time and energy. People here in NC or in Atlanta might not experience it exactly like someone in Hamilton but that doesn't make them lesser or unworthy.

Honestly, I'd love for you to do some traveling and actually attend games here and in other sunbelt markets and talk to the fans, or even read some of your own posts and try to empathize with fans in Atlanta and elsewhere.

As much as your posts often offend me, I can't help but feel sorry for you.

Its a zero-sum game. As long as their is a cap on the number of teams a team in a "non-traditional" market means that another market doesn't get one. So the NHL is working so hard to get a team into Atlanta but has shot down any idea of second team in Southern Ontario to the point that no one tries anymore.

 

[dj4aces]

Its a zero-sum game. As long as their is a cap on the number of teams a team in a "non-traditional" market means that another market doesn't get one. So the NHL is working so hard to get a team into Atlanta but has shot down any idea of second team in Southern Ontario to the point that no one tries anymore.

The league hasn't shot down any idea of a franchise in southern Ontario since the 1990s. Any prospective owner of a franchise there today would be paying a hefty sum to one or more other franchise owners for infringing on territorial rights.

I don't know if there was something necessarily wrong with the bid for a Hamilton franchise in the 1990s, but we all know the Balsillie bid to relocate pretty much any franchise that was for sale to Hamilton wouldn't have worked, as he tried to force his way in, rather than play by the rules.

Could an owner step up, play by the rules, and eventually land a franchise for Hamilton? Perhaps. But one must ask why folks would invest in or otherwise support the various attempts being made to bring the league back to Atlanta, but not to Hamilton? There'$ a rea$on in there $omewhere, I ju$t can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone have any idea$?

 

[GreenHornet]

The league hasn't shot down any idea of a franchise in southern Ontario since the 1990s. Any prospective owner of a franchise there today would be paying a hefty sum to one or more other franchise owners for infringing on territorial rights.

I don't know if there was something necessarily wrong with the bid for a Hamilton franchise in the 1990s, but we all know the Balsillie bid to relocate pretty much any franchise that was for sale to Hamilton wouldn't have worked, as he tried to force his way in, rather than play by the rules.

Could an owner step up, play by the rules, and eventually land a franchise for Hamilton? Perhaps. But one must ask why folks would invest in or otherwise support the various attempts being made to bring the league back to Atlanta, but not to Hamilton? There'$ a rea$on in there $omewhere, I ju$t can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone have any idea$?

You don't $ay?!?!?!

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Its just the extent to which Atlanta and other "non-traditional" market supporters make it out as if they need to be catered to in order to embrace the sport while fans in other markets are willing to walk on broken glass to get a team.

Its the same thing when they talk about how certain cities have too many other things to do and that's why fans don't show up. EVERY city big enough to have a pro sports team has plenty of things to do.

Lets say NY has a day in April where the Yankees, Mets, Knicks, Islanders, Devils, and Nets are all at home and all of them sold out. That means 160K people are at sporting events that day. Do you think the other 19+ million people are stuck at home?

Even in smaller cities. There is plenty to do if you're not going to a game. When I lived in Cleveland, I was never home on a Friday and Saturday night.

To the bolded, you're going to need to be more specific. Every team does the community outreach (which is marketing). Every team has ticket package discounts, has fan events, wears special jerseys, has mascot meet and greets, etc. All marketing.

To the rest....I really don't know where you're going with all that. Atlanta specifically does a great job at the gate for all it's teams. Most cities do. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

 

[aqib]

The league hasn't shot down any idea of a franchise in southern Ontario since the 1990s. Any prospective owner of a franchise there today would be paying a hefty sum to one or more other franchise owners for infringing on territorial rights.

I don't know if there was something necessarily wrong with the bid for a Hamilton franchise in the 1990s, but we all know the Balsillie bid to relocate pretty much any franchise that was for sale to Hamilton wouldn't have worked, as he tried to force his way in, rather than play by the rules.

Could an owner step up, play by the rules, and eventually land a franchise for Hamilton? Perhaps. But one must ask why folks would invest in or otherwise support the various attempts being made to bring the league back to Atlanta, but not to Hamilton? There'$ a rea$on in there $omewhere, I ju$t can't quite put my finger on it. Anyone have any idea$?

Gaglardi wanted to move the Thrashers to Hamilton before they went to Winnipeg and he wound up buying the Stars. Even Daryl Katz was making a play to take over the arena in Hamilton has a backup if the Oilers didn't get their arena deal done. Its not as if moneyed interests don't see the opportunity in Hamilton. However, there have been so many quotes and clips of both Bettman and Daly throwing cold water on a second team in Southern Ontario.

Among the arguments is that "second teams" struggle to gain a foothold especially if the first one is successful. Which I think is BS because they admitted in the Coyotes bankruptcy hearing that a Hamilton team would be top 5 in revenue. Also, there are so many people moving to Southern Ontario that many would become fans of the new team or at least their kids would pick the new team. Secondly, they mention "exposure" which is another way for them to say "people in Ontario are already hockey fans we need to put teams in markets that don't have hockey fans so they will become fans"

 

[dj4aces]

Gaglardi wanted to move the Thrashers to Hamilton before they went to Winnipeg and he wound up buying the Stars. Even Daryl Katz was making a play to take over the arena in Hamilton has a backup if the Oilers didn't get their arena deal done. Its not as if moneyed interests don't see the opportunity in Hamilton. However, there have been so many quotes and clips of both Bettman and Daly throwing cold water on a second team in Southern Ontario.

Among the arguments is that "second teams" struggle to gain a foothold especially if the first one is successful. Which I think is BS because they admitted in the Coyotes bankruptcy hearing that a Hamilton team would be top 5 in revenue. Also, there are so many people moving to Southern Ontario that many would become fans of the new team or at least their kids would pick the new team. Secondly, they mention "exposure" which is another way for them to say "people in Ontario are already hockey fans we need to put teams in markets that don't have hockey fans so they will become fans"

Bettman and Daly "throw cold water" on a second team because it's incredibly expensive to enter the Leafs market space. Again, indemnification is absolutely a factor in this, and they know no one is going to pay the kind of money the Leafs (and possibly Sabres, if Hamilton) would demand for that privilege. Again, the last time it would've been reasonable to do so was the 1990s.

On "exposure", think about how many people follow and support the Panthers now versus even ten years ago, when they were the constant target of unfounded relocation rumors. Think about the impact the Dallas Stars have had on that region. You can't throw a stone in Nashville without hitting three Preds fans. This is the growth the league wants, not "let's turn a region filled with Leafs fans into a place that has a group of people supporting the Hamilton Tigers".

I appreciate that you're a big proponent of expansion to southern Ontario, but you also have to know that anyone seeking to bring the NHL there is going to run into some serious financial demands if they were to succeed. That doesn't mean Hamilton has zero chance, Maybe the Leafs and Sabres give Hamilton a sweetheart deal for entry into their markets. Maybe finding a landing spot for a franchise becomes a must and Hamilton is ready to bring a team in without missing a beat. But you've gotta understand the challenges for Hamilton far exceeds that of even Quebec City. At least a QC owner wouldn't be paying indemnification to anyone.

 

[KevFu]

It's all about the fact that the SECOND owner of a Hamilton franchise is going to make a lot of money, but the first owner of a Hamilton franchise will only make a profit by selling the team.

No one wants to be the guy to bring the team to Hamilton, they want to be the guy to buy the first guy out later WITHOUT the territorial rights fee.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

To be fair, with the asking price for an expansion fee likely in the billion dollar ballpark, profits not coming until a sale are assuredly going to be the reality going forward for all new teams, barring being used as a loss leader for a major land development.

This is now fully in the realm of the rich having a shinier toy than other rich folks in a given market.

 

[aqib]

To the bolded, you're going to need to be more specific. Every team does the community outreach (which is marketing). Every team has ticket package discounts, has fan events, wears special jerseys, has mascot meet and greets, etc. All marketing.

To the rest....I really don't know where you're going with all that. Atlanta specifically does a great job at the gate for all it's teams. Most cities do. Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Again, its just something that comes across from Atlanta fans how a huge marketing effort is required to GENERATE interest rather than MAINTAIN engagement.

 

[Tawnos]

Again, its just something that comes across from Atlanta fans how a huge marketing effort is required to GENERATE interest rather than MAINTAIN engagement.

No, what's an Atlanta fans thing is an acknowledgement that such a thing would be required in any and every expansion market, including Hamilton. You truly underestimate the marketing effort it would take to generate interest in a new team in Hamilton that would carve a significant fanbase away from the entrenchment of the Leafs. To be fair, I believe almost everyone underestimates this in the same way.

Even though they'd sell a lot of tickets quickly, you're going to have to continuously be generating new interest in the team for a long time to get to a point where it's self-perpetuating and you can focus on maintaining engagement, as you put it.

 

[aqib]

Bettman and Daly "throw cold water" on a second team because it's incredibly expensive to enter the Leafs market space. Again, indemnification is absolutely a factor in this, and they know no one is going to pay the kind of money the Leafs (and possibly Sabres, if Hamilton) would demand for that privilege. Again, the last time it would've been reasonable to do so was the 1990s.

On "exposure", think about how many people follow and support the Panthers now versus even ten years ago, when they were the constant target of unfounded relocation rumors. Think about the impact the Dallas Stars have had on that region. You can't throw a stone in Nashville without hitting three Preds fans. This is the growth the league wants, not "let's turn a region filled with Leafs fans into a place that has a group of people supporting the Hamilton Tigers".

I appreciate that you're a big proponent of expansion to southern Ontario, but you also have to know that anyone seeking to bring the NHL there is going to run into some serious financial demands if they were to succeed. That doesn't mean Hamilton has zero chance, Maybe the Leafs and Sabres give Hamilton a sweetheart deal for entry into their markets. Maybe finding a landing spot for a franchise becomes a must and Hamilton is ready to bring a team in without missing a beat. But you've gotta understand the challenges for Hamilton far exceeds that of even Quebec City. At least a QC owner wouldn't be paying indemnification to anyone.

Ok you're just speculating there. They have said that the Leafs don't have a veto. You don't know what the indemnification fees (if any) would be. If the league was open to the idea of a second Southern Ontario team they could work with any of the runners up for the Senators to see if they would do a team in Hamilton. You had the billionaire Kimel brothers who are based in Toronto, Apostolopoulos another billionaire based in Toronto, and Remington/Reynolds a big developer with projects in Hamilton.

I am sure Balsillie and Gaglardi both knew they would have to pay something to the Leafs and/or Sabres but they were never able to go that far. Saying "no one will pay" a number that you don't even know what the number is, is speculation that you're treating as fact. Especially since Hamilton already has an arena that's being upgraded as we speak while Atlanta still has to build an arena. Would you say the indemnification fees would be higher than what an Atlanta owner would have to pay for an arena? Lets say the expansion fee is $1.5B and the contribution to the arena is another $1B, while the indemnification to the Leafs/Sabres is also around $1B. Would you rather own an NHL team in Atlanta or Hamilton? As an investor, set aside your emotional ties.

 

[aqib]

No, what's an Atlanta fans thing is an acknowledgement that such a thing would be required in any and every expansion market, including Hamilton. You truly underestimate the marketing effort it would take to generate interest in a new team in Hamilton that would carve a significant fanbase away from the entrenchment of the Leafs. To be fair, I believe almost everyone underestimates this in the same way.

Even though they'd sell a lot of tickets quickly, you're going to have to continuously be generating new interest in the team for a long time to get to a point where it's self-perpetuating and you can focus on maintaining engagement, as you put it.

14K season ticket deposits in 2 days when there hadn't even been an official announcement of the team moving says that its not as big of a task as the pro-Atlanta fans are saying it will be there.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Again, its just something that comes across from Atlanta fans how a huge marketing effort is required to GENERATE interest rather than MAINTAIN engagement.

Still have no idea what you're talking about, goal posts keep moving. What are these Atlanta fans that you've apparently spoken to saying about generating interest? Like a season ticket drive with a catchy slogan like what took place in Winnipeg? Or something like the Seattle Kraken wrapping their tentacles around the city in a guerrilla-style marketing campaign? Or voting on branding and the owner doing media tours like in Utah??

And, I'd argue that maintaining engagement is every bit, if not more, important as we've seen everywhere. So.....what's the point you're making, here?

 

[Tawnos]

14K season ticket deposits in 2 days when there hadn't even been an official announcement of the team moving says that its not as big of a task as the pro-Atlanta fans are saying it will be there.

This is a meaningless point. We’re not talking about initial enthusiasm over novelty here.

 

[dj4aces]

Ok you're just speculating there. They have said that the Leafs don't have a veto. You don't know what the indemnification fees (if any) would be. If the league was open to the idea of a second Southern Ontario team they could work with any of the runners up for the Senators to see if they would do a team in Hamilton. You had the billionaire Kimel brothers who are based in Toronto, Apostolopoulos another billionaire based in Toronto, and Remington/Reynolds a big developer with projects in Hamilton.

I am sure Balsillie and Gaglardi both knew they would have to pay something to the Leafs and/or Sabres but they were never able to go that far. Saying "no one will pay" a number that you don't even know what the number is, is speculation that you're treating as fact. Especially since Hamilton already has an arena that's being upgraded as we speak while Atlanta still has to build an arena. Would you say the indemnification fees would be higher than what an Atlanta owner would have to pay for an arena? Lets say the expansion fee is $1.5B and the contribution to the arena is another $1B, while the indemnification to the Leafs/Sabres is also around $1B. Would you rather own an NHL team in Atlanta or Hamilton? As an investor, set aside your emotional ties.

First, The only person to mention a veto in regards to the Leafs is you.

Second, there will be indemnification because a hypothetical Hamilton team would absolutely infringe on both Leafs and Sabres territory. Mic drop, that's the end of that. How much would it be is the question, and that's something only Pegula, MLSE, and the NHL can answer... but it won't be cheap, and everyone (except you, apparently) knows it. Other places in southern Ontario require indemnification as well, all depending on proximity to Toronto. Do note, while 50mi from city limits to city limits is what's written, it's not necessarily the rule. Don't underestimate Toronto.

Third, if I had $1bn burning a hole in my pocket, where would I want to invest in a team? Atlanta. Not for any emotional reason at all. The potential here, being an untapped market, is huge. I might experience an initial bump in Hamilton, but rest assured, getting Leafs fans to change their allegiance is going to be a tougher sell than convincing people to come out to the rink and cheer on the Atlanta whatevers.

Hamilton might be a better short term investment. Long term, the league believes the successes we've seen in places like Miami, Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, and even Vegas and Seattle can also be repeated in Atlanta, Houston, and Phoenix. It's all long game stuff here, dude. No one wants to play the quick cash grab unless they absolutely have to.

 

[Golden_Jet]

First, The only person to mention a veto in regards to the Leafs is you.

Second, there will be indemnification because a hypothetical Hamilton team would absolutely infringe on both Leafs and Sabres territory. Mic drop, that's the end of that. How much would it be is the question, and that's something only Pegula, MLSE, and the NHL can answer... but it won't be cheap, and everyone (except you, apparently) knows it. Other places in southern Ontario require indemnification as well, all depending on proximity to Toronto. Do note, while 50mi from city limits to city limits is what's written, it's not necessarily the rule. Don't underestimate Toronto.

Third, if I had $1bn burning a hole in my pocket, where would I want to invest in a team? Atlanta. Not for any emotional reason at all. The potential here, being an untapped market, is huge. I might experience an initial bump in Hamilton, but rest assured, getting Leafs fans to change their allegiance is going to be a tougher sell than convincing people to come out to the rink and cheer on the Atlanta whatevers.

Hamilton might be a better short term investment. Long term, the league believes the successes we've seen in places like Miami, Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, and even Vegas and Seattle can also be repeated in Atlanta, Houston, and Phoenix. It's all long game stuff here, dude. No one wants to play the quick cash grab unless they absolutely have to.

There is no veto clause, but they would definitely get some money.

 

[dj4aces]

There is no veto clause, but they would definitely get some money.

That's exactly my point. There is no veto. I certainly didn't say there was a veto. But they'll get a payday on top of the expansion fee.

The southern Ontario market is incredibly valuable, so I would expect them to fight tooth and nail to get as much as they can. If it's Hamilton, I would expect Buffalo to do the same.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

The rest of the NHL isn’t going to vote for an expansion unless they get their beaks wet. And no market is going to let a second team get added without throwing the mother of all hissy fits unless they get a massive indemnity on top of that, not just a 1/32nd share of a billion bucks.

Like it or not, the cost to expand into an already tapped market will be massively higher than in an untapped market because nobody wants less than they think they’re owed. I suppose a bigger question is “how close is too close?” in the realm of teams wanting compensation. I suppose we’ll see if a Hamilton or a Quebec or a Hartford buyer willing to pay what the NHL wants ever materializes. Until then, the silence is kinda deafening.

 

[aqib]

First, The only person to mention a veto in regards to the Leafs is you.

Second, there will be indemnification because a hypothetical Hamilton team would absolutely infringe on both Leafs and Sabres territory. Mic drop, that's the end of that. How much would it be is the question, and that's something only Pegula, MLSE, and the NHL can answer... but it won't be cheap, and everyone (except you, apparently) knows it. Other places in southern Ontario require indemnification as well, all depending on proximity to Toronto. Do note, while 50mi from city limits to city limits is what's written, it's not necessarily the rule. Don't underestimate Toronto.

Third, if I had $1bn burning a hole in my pocket, where would I want to invest in a team? Atlanta. Not for any emotional reason at all. The potential here, being an untapped market, is huge. I might experience an initial bump in Hamilton, but rest assured, getting Leafs fans to change their allegiance is going to be a tougher sell than convincing people to come out to the rink and cheer on the Atlanta whatevers.

Hamilton might be a better short term investment. Long term, the league believes the successes we've seen in places like Miami, Tampa, Dallas, Nashville, and even Vegas and Seattle can also be repeated in Atlanta, Houston, and Phoenix. It's all long game stuff here, dude. No one wants to play the quick cash grab unless they absolutely have to.

No Bettman and Daly have mentioned the veto to say it doesn't exist. So clearly its not me who brought it up.

You're the one who claims no one will pay the indemnification fee. So clearly you think you know what the number is AND what everyone is or isn't willing to pay. It would literally have to exceed the cost of an entire arena in Atlanta to make the two investments equal.

 

[dj4aces]

No Bettman and Daly have mentioned the veto to say it doesn't exist. So clearly its not me who brought it up.

You're the one who claims no one will pay the indemnification fee. So clearly you think you know what the number is AND what everyone is or isn't willing to pay. It would literally have to exceed the cost of an entire arena in Atlanta to make the two investments equal.

I think the value of the Toronto market greatly exceeds the $2+bn it will cost to build the barn here. I think you're underestimating what the Leafs will demand for entry to their market area.

But, we're free to agree to disagree on all of this, including who in this thread brought up the idea of a veto.

 

[aqib]

I think the value of the Toronto market greatly exceeds the $2+bn it will cost to build the barn here. I think you're underestimating what the Leafs will demand for entry to their market area.

But, we're free to agree to disagree on all of this, including who in this thread brought up the idea of a veto.

If they go to Hamilton there already is a barn. Its also going to finish its renovation this year and be up to par. So you're talking about expansion fee + indemnification vs expansion fee + cost of arena.

 

[rojac]

If they go to Hamilton there already is a barn. Its also going to finish its renovation this year and be up to par. So you're talking about expansion fee + indemnification vs expansion fee + cost of arena.

Based on this article from last year, I'm not sure how interested Oak View, who will be running the Hamilton arena, are in having a NHL team there.

Hamilton arena boss Tim Leiweke eyes many sports for renovated facility

The man leading a $280-million renovation of Hamilton's FirstOntario Centre says it doesn't make sense to pursue an NHL team for the full-sized arena, but sees plenty of interesting sporting opportunities for the facility.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[Tawnos]

No Bettman and Daly have mentioned the veto to say it doesn't exist. So clearly its not me who brought it up.

You're the one who claims no one will pay the indemnification fee. So clearly you think you know what the number is AND what everyone is or isn't willing to pay. It would literally have to exceed the cost of an entire arena in Atlanta to make the two investments equal.

When Bettman or Daly say that the Leafs don't have a veto, they're just speaking in legal jargon. A team in Hamilton absolutely has to have consent from the Leafs to even play home games. So, while a veto doesn't exist in the sense that the Leafs don't have a stamp that would say no... them not signing off on a Hamilton team effectively acts the same way.

Why do you think an indemnity would be required in the first place? There's no need for an indemnity if the Leafs can't prevent the team from existing.