Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[dj4aces]

When Balsillie had his bid for the Predators they had 14K season ticket deposits in two days. Hamilton has 800K, Waterloo has another 500K on top of that. London has another 600K. There are also no other pro sports teams in that area. Then you'd have the western areas of the GTA like Mississauga and Brampton which have about 1.6 million. Add on top of that college sports aren't a thing in Canada. So you don't have the equivalent of SEC Football and ACC Basketball to compete with.

But you're missing the point. No matter what number you put out there, be it the 800k in the census designated area that is metropolitan Hamilton, or the additional 2.2 million that exist outside that area, the number of folks who casually follow the sport, or don't follow it at all.

For this exercise, pretend you own this hypothetical Hamilton NHL franchise. How do you convince casual fans to come to games? How do you convince non hockey fans to pay attention to your franchise, and maybe even come to a few games a year? How do you convince folks who follow other teams -- like the Sabres -- to follow the Hamilton team?

Marketing isn't some sort of taboo thing that is reserved only for US franchises. It's an essential part of generating revenue and promoting your product (in this case, your sports franchise and the experience of coming to your town to see a game). Even the most hockey-mad markets have room for growth.

 

[aqib]

But you're missing the point. No matter what number you put out there, be it the 800k in the census designated area that is metropolitan Hamilton, or the additional 2.2 million that exist outside that area, the number of folks who casually follow the sport, or don't follow it at all.

For this exercise, pretend you own this hypothetical Hamilton NHL franchise. How do you convince casual fans to come to games? How do you convince non hockey fans to pay attention to your franchise, and maybe even come to a few games a year? How do you convince folks who follow other teams -- like the Sabres -- to follow the Hamilton team?

Marketing isn't some sort of taboo thing that is reserved only for US franchises. It's an essential part of generating revenue and promoting your product (in this case, your sports franchise and the experience of coming to your town to see a game). Even the most hockey-mad markets have room for growth.

My point is that the area already has enough hockey fans that I don't need to convince people to like the sport. Now obviously over time I have to make sure that the product is accessible so future generations are engaged. You have to make sure the game day experience is a good one for the fans etc. However, I don't need an extensive campaign to get people to start liking hockey.

This has already been proven false many times. Canadian and northern US teams have moved due to lack of support several times. Last year was a popular thread discussing one of the most rabid hockey markets in the world not being able to sell out the smallest arena in professional sports. Not too long ago, two teams in a couple of the largest markets on the planet, both up north (I assume that's what you mean by "traditional") were among the worst attended games in the league. Thinking let's just put a team in any northern market and it'll sell out forever is silly.

Yeah and that was discussed and its largely due to economic conditions and the fact that the market doesn't have a lot of big corporations. They admitted their season ticket base was mainly families buying tickets in groups and couldn't sustain when one family dropped out.

A lot of the other northern franchise moves were due to arena issues or in the case of Minnesota was due the owner's wife.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

My point is that the area already has enough hockey fans that I don't need to convince people to like the sport. Now obviously over time I have to make sure that the product is accessible so future generations are engaged. You have to make sure the game day experience is a good one for the fans etc. However, I don't need an extensive campaign to get people to start liking hockey.



Yeah and that was discussed and its largely due to economic conditions and the fact that the market doesn't have a lot of big corporations. They admitted their season ticket base was mainly families buying tickets in groups and couldn't sustain when one family dropped out.

A lot of the other northern franchise moves were due to arena issues or in the case of Minnesota was due the owner's wife.

Yes...a pile of excuses. Lack of support due to poor ownership, bad record, economy, arena location...the list goes on. Hartford, NYI, Boston, Peg, QC..... Just like the "non-traditional market, Thrashers. Poor ownership, recession, and terrible record all played a part. No different than all these teams and more. So no....you can't just put a team in Hamilton or any "traditional market," and it'll sell out forever.

 

[FlyguyOX]

So much for the cooler being saved, pickleball courts lol

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

View attachment 977307

So much for the cooler being saved, pickleball courts lol

Apparently, he's just getting bids and likely to keep the rink intact. That said, I do think this spells doom to Carter's bid. We'll see.

 

[dj4aces]

My point is that the area already has enough hockey fans that I don't need to convince people to like the sport. Now obviously over time I have to make sure that the product is accessible so future generations are engaged. You have to make sure the game day experience is a good one for the fans etc. However, I don't need an extensive campaign to get people to start liking hockey.

"Convincing people to like the sport" is just one of several functions of marketing a sports franchise. It may not be the function a hypothetical Hamilton team would need, but believe me, it will need marketing, just like any other franchise in any other city. I know, it's really fun to imagine that a team doesn't need marketing, but every team needs marketing. That's why every team has a marketing department.

 

[Salsero1]

"Convincing people to like the sport" is just one of several functions of marketing a sports franchise. It may not be the function a hypothetical Hamilton team would need, but believe me, it will need marketing, just like any other franchise in any other city. I know, it's really fun to imagine that a team doesn't need marketing, but every team needs marketing. That's why every team has a marketing department.

Yup, totally no teams above the arbitrary line of latitude under 100% capacity.

NHL 2024-25 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Attendance for the National Hockey League for the 2024-25 season

www.hockeydb.com

 

[dj4aces]

Yup, totally no teams above the arbitrary line of latitude under 100% capacity.

NHL 2024-25 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Attendance for the National Hockey League for the 2024-25 season

www.hockeydb.com

This one shows percentage of capacity, I think Utah's "capacity" is erroneous due to the number of seats that can't be used due to poor sight lines and the need for renovations at the Delta Center. For Canadian franchises, I'd also point out the economic situation north of the border isn't favorable for many folks to throw a few hundred bucks away on a night out at a Canucks or Flames game, regardless of how well the team is performing.

 

[GKJ]

But you're missing the point. No matter what number you put out there, be it the 800k in the census designated area that is metropolitan Hamilton, or the additional 2.2 million that exist outside that area, the number of folks who casually follow the sport, or don't follow it at all.

For this exercise, pretend you own this hypothetical Hamilton NHL franchise. How do you convince casual fans to come to games? How do you convince non hockey fans to pay attention to your franchise, and maybe even come to a few games a year? How do you convince folks who follow other teams -- like the Sabres -- to follow the Hamilton team?

Marketing isn't some sort of taboo thing that is reserved only for US franchises. It's an essential part of generating revenue and promoting your product (in this case, your sports franchise and the experience of coming to your town to see a game). Even the most hockey-mad markets have room for growth.

The way the Sabres are going, ‘be a good team’ would be the simplest answer.

 

[aqib]

Yes...a pile of excuses. Lack of support due to poor ownership, bad record, economy, arena location...the list goes on. Hartford, NYI, Boston, Peg, QC..... Just like the "non-traditional market, Thrashers. Poor ownership, recession, and terrible record all played a part. No different than all these teams and more. So no....you can't just put a team in Hamilton or any "traditional market," and it'll sell out forever.

Hartford yes poor arena and economic decline of the city. That's why no one has been making a serious bid to bring the NHL back to Hartford.
The Islanders yes poor arena location. It was physically impossible to get their on a weeknight if you work in Manhattan which you almost have to do in order to make enough money to go to an NHL game. But they have a big TV contract which demonstrates interest in the sport itself.
Boston. No idea what you're talking about. In the 30 years since they moved out of the Garden they have had one year where attendance was below 15K
Peg and QC were both arena issues. If Glendale folded earlier and the Coyotes moved back to Peg the Thrashers are probably in QC right now. Interest in the sport itself was never the issue.

 

[Tawnos]

Hartford yes poor arena and economic decline of the city. That's why no one has been making a serious bid to bring the NHL back to Hartford.
The Islanders yes poor arena location. It was physically impossible to get their on a weeknight if you work in Manhattan which you almost have to do in order to make enough money to go to an NHL game. But they have a big TV contract which demonstrates interest in the sport itself.
Boston. No idea what you're talking about. In the 30 years since they moved out of the Garden they have had one year where attendance was below 15K
Peg and QC were both arena issues. If Glendale folded earlier and the Coyotes moved back to Peg the Thrashers are probably in QC right now. Interest in the sport itself was never the issue.

The big TV contract the Islanders have has nothing to do with interest in the sport or the size of their fanbase. It’s about monopolizing the hockey broadcasts in the market.

 

[TheLegend]

If Glendale folded earlier and the Coyotes moved back to Peg the Thrashers are probably in QC right now.

That was a big massive “if”.

Simple fact was at that time (2009) Glendale wasn’t going to fold. Westgate was just beginning to take shape and the city needed that arena and the Coyotes to drive traffic to it.

That story about TNSE being just “15 minutes away” was a fairytale of wishful thinking. Everyone here locally knew what the council was going to do for a week leading up to that vote.

Now ten years later the situation was the complete opposite. Glendale wanted the Coyotes to stay (if the team signed a long term lease), but with all the build out at Westgate and surrounding area they now could live without them.

 

[Salsero1]

It must be a very boring existence to be so xenophobic. There's no room for possibilities or "what ifs?"

 

[FlyguyOX]

Atlanta marketing to get butts in seats would not be some huge task.

I live within 15min of the new arena spot. Trust me, people have loads of money and there are loads of families and kids and it will be the closest pro sports team.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Hartford yes poor arena and economic decline of the city. That's why no one has been making a serious bid to bring the NHL back to Hartford.
The Islanders yes poor arena location. It was physically impossible to get their on a weeknight if you work in Manhattan which you almost have to do in order to make enough money to go to an NHL game. But they have a big TV contract which demonstrates interest in the sport itself.
Boston. No idea what you're talking about. In the 30 years since they moved out of the Garden they have had one year where attendance was below 15K
Peg and QC were both arena issues. If Glendale folded earlier and the Coyotes moved back to Peg the Thrashers are probably in QC right now. Interest in the sport itself was never the issue.

Have a look at attendance in the early 2000's. Bruins near the bottom for years.

And again, you're just proving my point. The list of excuses just grows and grows. I'll add small market to a list of things that makes it difficult to sell out game after game. More proof you can't just put a team anywhere and sell out forever. It doesn't happen.

 

[sneakytitz]

Atlanta marketing to get butts in seats would not be some huge task.

I live within 15min of the new arena spot. Trust me, people have loads of money and there are loads of families and kids and it will be the closest pro sports team.

As has been said many times on this forum, by many people, Adler and Berkman were ahead of their time. They knew this area of town was the best to put a hockey team for precisely the reasons you mention. And they knew it back in the 90s. Imagine if they pulled it off and were talking about a nearly 3 decade old team?

The only new arena were likely talking about is the replacement to the one they've operated out of since then.

 

[dj4aces]

Atlanta marketing to get butts in seats would not be some huge task.

I live within 15min of the new arena spot. Trust me, people have loads of money and there are loads of families and kids and it will be the closest pro sports team.

As has been said many times on this forum, by many people, Adler and Berkman were ahead of their time. They knew this area of town was the best to put a hockey team for precisely the reasons you mention. And they knew it back in the 90s. Imagine if they pulled it off and were talking about a nearly 3 decade old team?

The only new arena were likely talking about is the replacement to the one they've operated out of since then.

While neither of you are wrong, don't underestimate the importance of marketing the sport, especially in communities that aren't within the 12mi radius on the map in the tweet posted a couple pages back. I live within that radius too, hear folks getting my attention when they see my Wings hat and/or shirts while out. but metro Atlanta isn't just Norcross, Duluth, Alpharetta, and Cumming.

The league returning here wouldn't just be about righting a wrong that occurred almost 14 years ago. It's about growth: Bringing in new business partners, bringing in new fans, increasing diversity... and in doing so, eventually increasing league revenue. This is what the league wants from Atlanta and Houston, and all of this is the NHL's long game.

You don't achieve any of that without marketing in places like Stockbridge, Douglasvile, and Covington. I've mentioned before growing up south of town and living there during the Thrashers era. While yes, the northside absolutely was and is hockey central in metro Atlanta, the Knights created an entire school of new hockey fans when a few players visited the middle school I was attending, talked to students, answered questions, and even explained to those who didn't know exactly what hockey is and why it's an amazing sport.

Don't underestimate the power of marketing. Watching my peers get excited about a sport many of them had never been exposed to was a thing of beauty, and has stuck with me. So while we'd all like to live in our little 12mi bubble, none of what the league wants from the market happens if all ownership does is live within that bubble.

 

[sneakytitz]

While neither of you are wrong, don't underestimate the importance of marketing the sport, especially in communities that aren't within the 12mi radius on the map in the tweet posted a couple pages back. I live within that radius too, hear folks getting my attention when they see my Wings hat and/or shirts while out. but metro Atlanta isn't just Norcross, Duluth, Alpharetta, and Cumming.

The league returning here wouldn't just be about righting a wrong that occurred almost 14 years ago. It's about growth: Bringing in new business partners, bringing in new fans, increasing diversity... and in doing so, eventually increasing league revenue. This is what the league wants from Atlanta and Houston, and all of this is the NHL's long game.

You don't achieve any of that without marketing in places like Stockbridge, Douglasvile, and Covington. I've mentioned before growing up south of town and living there during the Thrashers era. While yes, the northside absolutely was and is hockey central in metro Atlanta, the Knights created an entire school of new hockey fans when a few players visited the middle school I was attending, talked to students, answered questions, and even explained to those who didn't know exactly what hockey is and why it's an amazing sport.

Don't underestimate the power of marketing. Watching my peers get excited about a sport many of them had never been exposed to was a thing of beauty, and has stuck with me. So while we'd all like to live in our little 12mi bubble, none of what the league wants from the market happens if all ownership does is live within that bubble.

And a lot of that has to come from TV deals. When the Thrashers first started, they were on Turner South, which wasn't on many TV packages. I used to listen to Thrashers games on 105.7FM because my parents cable package didn't cover it. We had hundreds of channels but Turner South wasn't one of them. The Braves went into a lull during this period too because they were also on Turner South for 60-80ish games a year. They're kind of in a lull right now considering that YouTubeTV doesn't offer Bally.

Gray (who also broadcast Glads and Ghost Pirates games) are broadcasting 15 Braves games this year. If you can broadcast games for free to locals like Dallas or Anaheim, you can build a plethora of fans. Paywalls and yet another streaming option won't help, even if teams visits kids.

The new Atlanta NHL team is going to need to partner with a local, over-the-air broadcaster to have any sort of success. Gray, who has slowly built their offerings over the last 2 years, is the perfect candidate for this.

 

[GreenHornet]

And a lot of that has to come from TV deals. When the Thrashers first started, they were on Turner South, which wasn't on many TV packages. I used to listen to Thrashers games on 105.7FM because my parents cable package didn't cover it. We had hundreds of channels but Turner South wasn't one of them. The Braves went into a lull during this period too because they were also on Turner South for 60-80ish games a year. They're kind of in a lull right now considering that YouTubeTV doesn't offer Bally.

Gray (who also broadcast Glads and Ghost Pirates games) are broadcasting 15 Braves games this year. If you can broadcast games for free to locals like Dallas or Anaheim, you can build a plethora of fans. Paywalls and yet another streaming option won't help, even if teams visits kids.

The new Atlanta NHL team is going to need to partner with a local, over-the-air broadcaster to have any sort of success. Gray, who has slowly built their offerings over the last 2 years, is the perfect candidate for this.

Point of info.: The Knights only televised a select few games in their heyday. IIRC, it was only about 2-3 games a month at most. Also, I think the network you're thinking of was SportSouth. I don't think Turner South came into being until the early 2000s.

 

[dj4aces]

Gray (who also broadcast Glads and Ghost Pirates games) are broadcasting 15 Braves games this year. If you can broadcast games for free to locals like Dallas or Anaheim, you can build a plethora of fans. Paywalls and yet another streaming option won't help, even if teams visits kids.

The new Atlanta NHL team is going to need to partner with a local, over-the-air broadcaster to have any sort of success. Gray, who has slowly built their offerings over the last 2 years, is the perfect candidate for this.

Absolutely, 110% agree on this. It would be incredibly valuable for them to have free access to games, whether it be via a Gray affiliate network or via a free streaming service, would be incredibly important for generating interest.

While players meeting kids is very much an easy and traditional form of marketing the team, along with generating interest and goodwill in the community, having easy access to games will help keep that interest. It'd be a very smart decision for ownership to secure a broadcast deal with something like Gray.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That was a big massive “if”.

Simple fact was at that time (2009) Glendale wasn’t going to fold. Westgate was just beginning to take shape and the city needed that arena and the Coyotes to drive traffic to it.

That story about TNSE being just “15 minutes away” was a fairytale of wishful thinking. Everyone here locally knew what the council was going to do for a week leading up to that vote.

Now ten years later the situation was the complete opposite. Glendale wanted the Coyotes to stay (if the team signed a long term lease), but with all the build out at Westgate and surrounding area they now could live without them.

The simple fact is that unless you were on Glendale Council in 2009 you don't know for sure what was going to happen back in 2009 - and neither you or I were on that council.

Glendale in 2009 (just one year removed from the economic crisis of 2008) had massive loans on the Westgate arena (I forget if it was jobing.com back then or whatever). Bankruptcy had severed the lease the Coyotes had. The NHL went to Glendale and said 'give us $25 mil per year or the team leaves'.

Back in 2009 obviously Glendale went along with that demand. There were media reports about being "15 minutes away". Clearly Mark Chipman thought TNSE was close. Exactly how close is almost impossible to say...

other than this. Several years later Glendale refused to subsidize the Coyotes and kicked them out of the arena. So it's not impossible to imagine it could have happened in 2009.

 

[Golden_Jet]

This has already been proven false many times. Canadian and northern US teams have moved due to lack of support several times. Last year was a popular thread discussing one of the most rabid hockey markets in the world not being able to sell out the smallest arena in professional sports. Not too long ago, two teams in a couple of the largest markets on the planet, both up north (I assume that's what you mean by "traditional") were among the worst attended games in the league. Thinking let's just put a team in any northern market and it'll sell out forever is silly.

Well they’ll do better than any Atlanta team for fans, who didn’t support their teams.

 

[sneakytitz]

Also, I think the network you're thinking of was SportSouth. I don't think Turner South came into being until the early 2000s.

Turner South launched the day before the first regular season Atlanta Thrashers game.

I remember this detail because I was at the first ever Thrashers home game and was ecstatic to watch the next game a few days later against the Red Wings but could not because my parents cable package didn't include Turner South. My dad didn't care until he started missing Braves games. We got Turner South in the summer of 2000. As I said, my entire fandom in 1999-2000 was spent listening to 105.7 FM (they carried Thrashers games).

 

[TheLegend]

The simple fact is that unless you were on Glendale Council in 2009 you don't know for sure what was going to happen back in 2009 - and neither you or I were on that council.

We knew. Not everything gets to the media. The vote was 7-0.

Now in 2014 we didn't know which way the city would go with Ice Arizona. And if you recall it took a backroom deal between two council members to get that lease passed.

Glendale in 2009 (just one year removed from the economic crisis of 2008) had massive loans on the Westgate arena (I forget if it was jobing.com back then or whatever). Bankruptcy had severed the lease the Coyotes had. The NHL went to Glendale and said 'give us $25 mil per year or the team leaves'.

Back in 2009 obviously Glendale went along with that demand. There were media reports about being "15 minutes away". Clearly Mark Chipman thought TNSE was close. Exactly how close is almost impossible to say...

Chipman thought that because the league was going to keep that window open right up until the city voted to make it official. Would have been negligent for the league to treat it any differently.

The NHL asked for the $25 million to operate the arena and support the team while they negotiated a sale. Had they been able to get one done the city would have been reimbursed. Of course we all remember what happened and rehashing it at this point is moot.

other than this. Several years later Glendale refused to subsidize the Coyotes and kicked them out of the arena. So it's not impossible to imagine it could have happened in 2009.

The city refused to renew the Coyotes' lease because they wouldn't agree to sign long term (15years+) under teh city's terms. There are comments from Glendale's city manager to that effect. Those delinquent payments were NOT a factor.

The city even offered the sell the arena to Alex Meruelo. He turned it down.

[anyway enough of this.... apologies to the Atlanta guys for going on a tangent.]

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Well they’ll do better than any Atlanta team for fans, who didn’t support their teams.

Who’s they? A ton of teams had periods of time fan attendance was low. You’ll need to be more specific