Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[TheLegend]

Just look at the Tempe, Arizona arena though. It's also being privately funded - but the City is giving up valuable development and tax rights.

Depends on how you look at it.

The land is being sold for about $50 million. But Tempe would have to remediate the land before they could sell it and that estimate has been pushed up to $90 million.

Since the city doesn’t have that kind of money they would have to bond it out and the cost could come to somewhere in the $200-300 million range over the life of the bonds.

So where does it leave the city if they still can’t sell it even after they clean it all up.

Because a developer would be looking at paying close to $300 million for the same piece of land (because the city would want to recover 100% of their costs.) PLUS paying out the subsequent property taxes on top of it.

 

[sh724]

Ok read slowly. 1) most cities don't need multiple NBA and NHL caliber arenas. Its the reason why Kansas City converted Kemper Arena into a youth sports complex, Toronto turned Maple Leaf Gardens into a grocery store, Montreal turned the Forum into a movie theater, New Jersey shuttered the Maadowlands arena, etc. 2) Entirely privately financed arenas with no major league tenants don't make sense economically outside of a few select markets like Vegas. Its why the Markham Ontario arena didn't go.
As far as this particular project goes, there is a reason why you a car dealer (see my previous disclaimer that I have nothing against car dealers, it is a perfectly fine way to make a living) and not big developers or seasoned arena operators like AEG backing it. We've all heard the stats about Atlanta, 8th largest metro area in the US, 3rd highest concentration of Fortune 500 companies etc. So why aren't there legitimate financial backer for this project?

If "All you're hearing is grasping for straws" its because that's what you WANT to hear.

Kemper Arena is 50 years old and was in need of massive amounts of cash which is why it was replaced. T Mobile Center was built as a replacement to Kemper and was never meant to compete with it. The examples of TOR and MON are also replacing an outdated arena that would need signficant investments to modernize. The new arenas were designed to replace the old arenas and not comete with them

KC is not a good comparison to ATL in anway shape or form. If your arguement is that ATL cannot support more than one arena of say greater than 15m seats than by that logic KC would only be able to support 1 arena of greater than 5m seats.

You are assuming the only backer to this deal is 1 car dealer. That assumption doesnt make sense as he (regardless of his profession) doesnt have the net worth to pull off a project of this size. It is much more likely there is a silent partner and probably more than 1. Not all rich people want to be the face of whatever projects they are involved with. Many people have zero interest in being in the public spotlight.

Since this has been in development for over a year and we are just now hearing about it, its reasonable to assume those involved are intentionally being quiet about it. It only became public now because there is now a need for it to be public. As far as i know no financing details have been made public so why woud you jump to the conclusion that 1 person is paying for all of it?

 

[ichbinkanadier]

So basically the exact same premise and belief that's been used for the past 30 years. Got it.

How much of the revenue growth since then has been a result of the southern expansion teams? How's the NHL's market penetration in California? Florida? Texas? Arizona? I mean those are massive markets that have experienced growth over the past 25 - 30 years and adding them should have surely made the US TV deals just skyrocket right?

Thing is, I actually have no problem with any of those markets save for a couple of the obvious ones that are just massive jokes. I'm also not entirely advocating for more teams in Canada. What I am advocating against is stupidly putting franchises in markets that have no real potential and expectation for success outside of the vaunted market size and "growth".

For all the talk about business, people seem to much rather put money towards having the potential for and ultimately not reaching potential customers than having actual customers.

If you take a historical perspective the risk-taking has paid off in New York, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, Boston, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Los Angeles....

These were all non-hickey markets that were risky and required time to build up a fan base.

And besides, growth of a business requires penetrating new markets, not setting up in a market that is already effectively served.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Not directly related to this project, but some have asked about the Hawks. This is why they're not interested in moving to this proposed project.

Behind a paywall, but here are some snippets.

Atlanta Hawks Billionaire Owner Plans $5 Billion Downtown Transformation​

Tony Ressler, the billionaire co-founder of Ares Management and Atlanta Hawks owner, said he’s undeterred by the recent property downturn and is moving forward with his partners to transform downtown Atlanta by turning a vacant railyard into a $5 billion mix of hotels, restaurants and offices.

The project, backed by Ressler and CIM, the Los Angeles-based real estate developer co-founded by his brother, Richard Ressler, aims to tackle one of Atlanta’s most vexing challenges.

New residents and corporations have flocked to the southern city, drawn by its lower cost of living and temperate weather, but the downtown district has struggled for decades to become a destination where people want to live and work.

Ressler said that his group, which includes several Black investors such as basketball stars Shaquille O’Neal and Grant Hill and civil rights icon Andrew Young, holds about 35% of the equity in the project, while CIM has the rest.

Atlanta will co-host the 2026 World Cup soccer championship, which Ressler said creates “a greater sense of urgency” to get Centennial Yards developed. It’s an opportunity, he said, “to show the world that Centennial Yards is moving rapidly.”

 

[Digital Kid]

That Snoop Dog group bidding for the Senators should seriously inquire about being part of an expansion group for Atlanta 3.0. Based on Snoop Dog's comments and motivations, he would find more success in Atlanta than Ottawa one would think.

Having said that, I want les Nordiques de Québec to return as part of a 36-team mandate.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Forsyth County Board greenlights financial study on proposed arena, community

Leaders in Forsyth County decided Tuesday to move forward with a financial study that will help them determine whether to build a mixed use development and arena in south Forsyth County similar to The Battery near Truist Park.

The study was discussed during a Forsyth County Board of Commissioners meeting on Tuesday. The board did not say how much the study would cost or when it would approve how much it would be willing to spend on it.

 

[tucker3434]

I’d imagine a study like that could say pretty much whatever you wanted it to since Forsyth county doesn’t have anything remotely like this. In this instance, there’s no concern you’re stealing money away from other entertainment options in the county, you’d be stealing from Fulton/Alpharetta which is actually the goal. Little reason to assume that the retail wouldn’t lease up just as easily as the Avalon down the street. Though maybe they will throw a wet blanket on the office portion based on current absorption rates. That part should probably be punted 25 years down the road until that area is much more well established.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Just don’t see the reason why there is so much vitriol/angst against an Atlanta ‘NHL project’ by some on social media, or by posts on here.

I’ve held two opinions over the years: I think it’s extremely unfair that Atlantas team seemed to be suddenly stripped from them overnight. I still think they should be at the top of the list for expansion/relocation. How can people be so short-sighted over a market that can increase the financial outlook for the league? Atlanta is growing.

The second, bit OT, but why were the Jets 2.0 allowed to be called that? Makes no sense because the actual Jets are the Coyotes.

 

[MMC]

Just don’t see the reason why there is so much vitriol/angst against an Atlanta ‘NHL project’ by some on social media, or by posts on here.

I’ve held two opinions over the years: I think it’s extremely unfair that Atlantas team seemed to be suddenly stripped from them overnight. I still think they should be at the top of the list for expansion/relocation. How can people be so short-sighted over a market that can increase the financial outlook for the league? Atlanta is growing.

The second, bit OT, but why were the Jets 2.0 allowed to be called that? Makes no sense because the actual Jets are the Coyotes.

There are a lot of people on this board who seem opposed to any US expansion at the expense of Canadian. I feel like that’s all most of this ultimately comes down to whether people want to admit it or not. And people are even more annoyed about Atlanta than they were with Vegas/Seattle (and there was plenty of Quebec Deserves This Team when those got announced) because of their recent failure

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

There are a lot of people on this board who seem opposed to any US expansion at the expense of Canadian. I feel like that’s all most of this ultimately comes down to whether people want to admit it or not. And people are even more annoyed about Atlanta than they were with Vegas/Seattle (and there was plenty of Quebec Deserves This Team when those got announced) because of their recent failure

I don’t see how a city can be blamed for the previous ownership groups incompetence. If this was any other franchise in the league they would be screaming for the owners head

 

[MMC]

I don’t see how a city can be blamed for the previous ownership groups incompetence. If this was any other franchise in the league they would be screaming for the owners head

Your mistake is expecting people on the internet to care about nuance

 

[KevFu]

The second, bit OT, but why were the Jets 2.0 allowed to be called that? Makes no sense because the actual Jets are the Coyotes.

When TrueNorth negotiated the relocation agreement with the NHL to move to Winnipeg, the NHL also happened to be the owners of the Coyotes at the time!

Part of the money from the sale/relocation terms went to the Coyotes for the Jets name, logos and branding.

 

[sh724]

I don’t see how a city can be blamed for the previous ownership groups incompetence. If this was any other franchise in the league they would be screaming for the owners head

From what i see, the majority of the people, on the internet, who are against anything like this believe that Bettman is some sort of evil genius dictator of hockey and have no interest in learning what his job actually is. They think a different commissioner would vastly change how the league operates and it would instantly create some utopian hockey world.

The anti-Atlanta arguements are more made from an emotional perspective than an economic/business perspective.

Its the internet, why research something when its so much cooler to spout nonsense

 

[RoyalAir]

Part of the money from the sale/relocation terms went to the Coyotes for the Jets name, logos and brbranding

This is now true with the Thrashers' name, etc. True North owned all of it upon the sale (which is why Thrash didn't become the Braves' mascot, a la Youppi in Montreal). In the years since the relo, all of those trademarks are owned by the NHL, so a new group could have those rights ASAP.

If Atlanta were to get another go, I don't particularly want the name, as it is associated with moribund teams. But a lot of locals really want it back. So...

 

[BMN]

If Atlanta were to get another go, I don't particularly want the name, as it is associated with moribund teams. But a lot of locals really want it back. So...

I always thought the Thrashers branding was pretty weak (except for the powder blues with "ATLANTA" on the sleeve, those were suh-weet). What was most galling to me is the only thing really good about it (the Thrasherville history) was barely exploited in the marketing.

 

[GreenHornet]

I always thought the Thrashers branding was pretty weak (except for the powder blues with "ATLANTA" on the sleeve, those were suh-weet). What was most galling to me is the only thing really good about it (the Thrasherville history) was barely exploited in the marketing.

Honestly, I was never crazy about the name, which Ted Turner came up with himself to reference the brown thrasher, the official state bird of Georgia. It's also a bird that is very small and very susceptible to bullying from other bird species and predation from several different animals (see here Brown thrasher - Wikipedia). Those aspects don't exactly elicit much of a sense of respect, now, does it?

I agree that the uniforms were actually pretty good, though I liked the original blue sweater with the Batman-like crest even better than the power blues with ATLANTA on the sleeve. And the Thrasherville history wasn't the only thing that was neglected in terms of marketing. I'd heard numerous reports of several former Atlanta Flames and Knights who lived in the area when the franchise first started who were willing to help serve as ambassadors for the city's hockey history, but were pretty much ignored by the team management at the time.

 

[Yukon Joe]

When TrueNorth negotiated the relocation agreement with the NHL to move to Winnipeg, the NHL also happened to be the owners of the Coyotes at the time!

Part of the money from the sale/relocation terms went to the Coyotes for the Jets name, logos and branding.

I don't believe any money went to the Coyotes for branding, because as you pointed out the NHL owned the Coyotes, so that would just be paying themselves.

The purchase price for the Jets was $170 mil - $110 went to former owners ASG, while $60 went to the league in a "relocation fee". So you can I guess see that as in part a payment for the Jets name and logos.

 

[KevFu]

I don't believe any money went to the Coyotes for branding, because as you pointed out the NHL owned the Coyotes, so that would just be paying themselves.

The purchase price for the Jets was $170 mil - $110 went to former owners ASG, while $60 went to the league in a "relocation fee". So you can I guess see that as in part a payment for the Jets name and logos.

This is now true with the Thrashers' name, etc. True North owned all of it upon the sale (which is why Thrash didn't become the Braves' mascot, a la Youppi in Montreal). In the years since the relo, all of those trademarks are owned by the NHL, so a new group could have those rights ASAP.

THAT explains it! We're all right here. I don't think it was at "time of ASG sale of team" but in the time period when Winnipeg hadn't announced their name yet.

It's technically true that TrueNorth "bought" the Jets branding from the Coyotes (via the NHL, who owned the Coyotes).

The actual PAYMENT for the Jets brand was giving the NHL the THRASHERS brand.

 

[KevFu]

Honestly, I was never crazy about the name, which Ted Turner came up with himself to reference the brown thrasher, the official state bird of Georgia. It's also a bird that is very small and very susceptible to bullying from other bird species and predation from several different animals (see here Brown thrasher - Wikipedia). Those aspects don't exactly elicit much of a sense of respect, now, does it?

I agree that the uniforms were actually pretty good, though I liked the original blue sweater with the Batman-like crest even better than the power blues with ATLANTA on the sleeve. And the Thrasherville history wasn't the only thing that was neglected in terms of marketing. I'd heard numerous reports of several former Atlanta Flames and Knights who lived in the area when the franchise first started who were willing to help serve as ambassadors for the city's hockey history, but were pretty much ignored by the team management at the time.

The one thing that I always struggled with for their branding... was why wouldn't they make their branding UGA Red, Black, and GT Gold?

I made a photoshop of their uni in those colors and it looked pretty sweet. It's probably on this site somewhere back in like the 2003-2007 archives.

 

[tucker3434]

The one thing that I always struggled with for their branding... was why wouldn't they make their branding UGA Red, Black, and GT Gold?

I made a photoshop of their uni in those colors and it looked pretty sweet. It's probably on this site somewhere back in like the 2003-2007 archives.

Atlanta United ultimately did it.

I’d guess it was because of the Canes. They beat the Thrashers to the NHL by a couple of years. probably didn’t want two southeastern teams with the same basic color scheme.

 

[Salsero1]

The one thing that I always struggled with for their branding... was why wouldn't they make their branding UGA Red, Black, and GT Gold?

I made a photoshop of their uni in those colors and it looked pretty sweet. It's probably on this site somewhere back in like the 2003-2007 archives.

I loved the Thrashers color scheme. There are enough red/black teams in the NHL. Anything brighter or unique is better.

 

[KevFu]

Valid point on Carolina, but without my old picture, and by listing the colors "by school" I think I was misleading. I meant team colors of Red & Gold in equal amounts. And tertiary colors of Black and GT Navy.

Personally, I think there needs to be more "unique" branding across the league, so a Red/Black schedule should be highly discouraged. And the Thrashers color scheme definitely was unique.


But at the same time, I think that a similar "regional branding" is good for a new franchise like NHL in Atlanta.

For example, during the NBA/NHL playoffs you'll see people at New York Mets games in Islanders and Knicks gear; and they blend in with all the Mets gear, because they're all blue & orange.

My goal of Red/Gold would have been that if everyone going to a Thrashers game wore their Falcons, Hawks, Bulldogs, Yellow Jackets gear... it looks like the whole crowd is in Thrashers gear.

 

[GreenHornet]

The one thing that I always struggled with for their branding... was why wouldn't they make their branding UGA Red, Black, and GT Gold?

I made a photoshop of their uni in those colors and it looked pretty sweet. It's probably on this site somewhere back in like the 2003-2007 archives.

How about combining UGA red, GT gold and Georgia State royal blue?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Valid point on Carolina, but without my old picture, and by listing the colors "by school" I think I was misleading. I meant team colors of Red & Gold in equal amounts. And tertiary colors of Black and GT Navy.

Personally, I think there needs to be more "unique" branding across the league, so a Red/Black schedule should be highly discouraged. And the Thrashers color scheme definitely was unique.


But at the same time, I think that a similar "regional branding" is good for a new franchise like NHL in Atlanta.

For example, during the NBA/NHL playoffs you'll see people at New York Mets games in Islanders and Knicks gear; and they blend in with all the Mets gear, because they're all blue & orange.

My goal of Red/Gold would have been that if everyone going to a Thrashers game wore their Falcons, Hawks, Bulldogs, Yellow Jackets gear... it looks like the whole crowd is in Thrashers gear.

I think you just answered your own question about why teams like to pick their own unique colours - so they can get their fans to buy more merchandise.

 

[sh724]

I think you just answered your own question about why teams like to pick their own unique colours - so they can get their fans to buy more merchandise.

The LA Kings switchign to black/silver was because everyone in and around LA was wearing those colors