Post-mortem on the season

[Andy99]

I definitely agree there have been issues with Sullivan this year and some troubling rumors. From Sprong, his infatuation with Simon, and not resting Kessel, which he should have done....Phil should only,get traded for solid hockey trade and not because there are issues with the coach...I disagree with those who easily think we have the skill on the wings to replace what he brings...Sprong is an unknown and the other wings don’t have his finishing ability consistently ...I also think with his 8-team trade list he’s going to be very difficult to trade for a solid return (see TOR). They tanked to get Matthews...we don’t have that luxury....

Sully needs to just suck it up, be humble, listen to others’ opinions because he doesn’t know it all....

 

[Gurglesons]

I think you need more than 2 elite players to go far now. Losing Kessel means we no longer have 3 elite players (I'm still not sure if Jake is "elite" or simply "very good") and go back to being heavily reliant on Sid/Geno.

I think a big reason the Caps got this far this year is the emergence of Kuznetsov, giving them 3 elite talents in Ovie, Kuz, and Backstrom. They failed in seasons past because Kuznetsov disappeared and wasn't that elite performer. This year, he has been and they've gone farther than anytime in Ovechkin's career.

I mean, number one Vegas.

Number two. Nashville. I guess there is an argument that Forsberg, Subban and Josi are all “elite”. I’d disagree.

Number three, Kessel was completely irrelevant this year. Nobody likes him playing with Malkin and he isn’t playing for Crosby. We had a couple of years where we could afford Kessel on the 3rd line. Once Jake, Rust and Murray get their raises, we can’t afford that.

A trade like Coyle and their 1st for Kessel opens up the opportunity to spend more money on our D in the form of a UFA or bringing in something else via trade.

 

[Andy99]

Why should we blame Sully for Phil and Sully not getting along?

Has Phil ever got along with any coach he played for?

It’s not who’s to blame...they’re both to blame if the relationship is bad...it’s what do you do about it and the answer is not trading Phil....

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean, number one Vegas.

Number two. Nashville.

Number three, Kessel was completely irrelevant this year. Nobody likes him playing with Malkin and he isn’t playing for Crosby. We had a couple of years where we could afford Kessel on the 3rd line. Once Jake, Rust and Murray get their raises, we can’t afford that.

A trade like Coyle and their 1st for Kessel opens up the opportunity to spend more money on our D in the form of a UFA or bringing in something else via trade.

Nashville's built on an elite defense. The Pens are built around having elite forwards. It's apples and oranges.

As for Vegas, whether it was a career year or not for a lot of them, but they had like 5 forwards who were at or near a point per game this year. While none of them are at Sid/Geno's level, that's pretty damn near elite enough.

If you remove Kessel, after Sid and Geno our next highest scoring forward had 48 points. For a team built around its forwards, that's not going to cut it, IMO.

 

[cheesedanish87]

It’s not who’s to blame...they’re both to blame if the relationship is bad...it’s what do you do about it and the answer is not trading Phil....

I just have a hard time putting any of the blame on Sully if what we hear is true.

Phil isn't the coach, he doesn't get to decide who he plays with.

 

[Andy99]

I just have a hard time putting any of the blame on Sully if what we hear is true.

Phil isn't the coach, he doesn't get to decide who he plays with.

Agree...if true, Phil shouldn’t dictate anything. What Sullivan’s problem is is not that he should be listening to Phil, but that he should be benching him if he’s pouting or deliberating hurting the team with his attitude or playing thru injuries. He has to make sure who he putting out there to play and with whom is in the best interest of the team....I don’t always get that impression with him and it’s not just Phil....

 

[Gurglesons]

Nashville's built on an elite defense. The Pens are built around having elite forwards. It's apples and oranges.

As for Vegas, whether it was a career year or not for a lot of them, but they had like 5 forwards who were at or near a point per game this year. While none of them are at Sid/Geno's level, that's pretty damn near elite enough.

If you remove Kessel, after Sid and Geno our next highest scoring forward had 48 points. For a team built around its forwards, that's not going to cut it, IMO.

I think Jake proved last year wasn’t a fluke.

You straight up remove Kessel’s goals from our totals last year and we are still a top 15 team in terms of goals.

Also, Kessel would likely be moved for a 40-50 pt player.

Sometimes a team needs a change, I really don’t get how Letang needs to be moved after the last season he played he was 4th in Norris votes and third in Conn Smythe votes and Kessel being moved immediately makes us a worse team.

Kessel’s position is easier to replace, Kessel’s reputation is as bad if not worse than Letang’s, and Kessel is arguably even more one dimensional.

If you can get a top six winger like Coyle and a top 15 pick it’s a move you should make for the future.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Agree...if true, Phil shouldn’t dictate anything. What Sullivan’s problem is is not that he should be listening to Phil, but that he should be benching him if he’s pouting or deliberating hurting the team with his attitude or playing thru injuries. He has to make sure who he putting out there to play and with whom is in the best interest of the team....I don’t always get that impression with him and it’s not just Phil....

I agree, i would of at least cut down Phil's minutes in the playoffs.

To Sully's credit i think he did bench Phil in one of the games, i think it was game 4 in the third period when Phil and Sheary didn't play very much.

 

[The Greatest 101]

I just have a hard time putting any of the blame on Sully if what we hear is true.

Phil isn't the coach, he doesn't get to decide who he plays with.

You mean the Ron Cook article? I just have a hard time believing that's the whole story, esp after the Cole incident.

Maybe Phil should try to chase Sullivan's niece. It could be helpful to rebuild his relationship with the coach.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think Jake proved last year wasn’t a fluke.

You straight up remove Kessel’s goals from our totals last year and we are still a top 15 team in terms of goals.

You make that sound good. That's literally a league average offense. Our strength is being one of the best offenses in hockey.

Losing Kessel turns us into a middle of the pack offense by your own admission. For team built around elite forwards and high impact offense, that's bad planning.

Sometimes a team needs a change, I really don’t get how Letang needs to be moved after the last season he played he was 4th in Norris votes and third in Conn Smythe votes and Kessel being moved immediately makes us a worse team.

Kessel’s position is easier to replace, Kessel’s reputation is as bad if not worse than Letang’s, and Kessel is arguably even more one dimensional.

If you can get a top six winger like Coyle and a top 15 pick it’s a move you should make for the future.

I find it a little weird you're so defensive of Letang and anyone saying we should trade him for a "downgrade", but are fully on board with dealing Kessel for said downgrade.

 

[cheesedanish87]

You mean the Ron Cook article? I just have a hard time believing that's the whole story, esp after the Cole incident.

Maybe Phil should try to chase Sullivan's niece. It could be helpful to rebuild his relationship with the coach.

Madden said the same thing today.

 

[Gurglesons]

You make that sound good. That's literally a league average offense. Our strength is being one of the best offenses in hockey.

I mean, that’s without bringing in a Kessel replacement. Kessel doesn’t make either of our top lines function and he’s basically a luxury third winger for this team. If he and Malkin / Crosby had a Bergeron / Marchand or Monahan / Gaudreau, I’d understand why people would be hesitant to move him.

I find it a little weird you're so defensive of Letang and anyone saying we should trade him for a "downgrade", but are fully on board with dealing Kessel for said downgrade.

Well, a # 1 defenseman is much harder to replace and much harder to acquire versus a offensive winger. Also, I’m totally onboard with moving Letang for a package that brings back a legitimate top 4 D and a top 15 pick. I just think the package we get for 2018 Letang versus the package a contender may give us for 2018 Kessel is light years apart.

 

[EightyOne]

HFPens board is on the trading block. Looks like we might be had for the HFWestern Europe and a conditional HFMartial Arts board. Stay tuned.

 

[vikingGoalie]

It would be idiocy if we traded Kessel away. 6.5M cap hit, 92 points. Literally carried this team for stretches when others were not producing. When not hurt he absolutely is a playoff monster. Kessel was a big reason we won cups, unless this involves something earth shattering like we got Eric Karlsson and John Tavares this would be just stupid to do.

 

[DegenX]

HFPens board is on the trading block. Looks like we might be had for the HFWestern Europe and a conditional HFMartial Arts board. Stay tuned.

 

[Deport Ogie]

HFPens board is on the trading block. Looks like we might be had for the HFWestern Europe and a conditional HFMartial Arts board. Stay tuned.

But isn't the Martial Arts board always broken?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I mean, that’s without bringing in a Kessel replacement. Kessel doesn’t make either of our top lines function and he’s basically a luxury third winger for this team. If he and Malkin / Crosby had a Bergeron / Marchand or Monahan / Gaudreau, I’d understand why people would be hesitant to move him.

How is Kessel turning the third line into almost another top line a "luxury"? If anything, that's exactly the reason he needs to stay. It turns the Pens into a team that has 3 lines that can potentially score every single night.

Well, a # 1 defenseman is much harder to replace and much harder to acquire versus a offensive winger. Also, I’m totally onboard with moving Letang for a package that brings back a legitimate top 4 D and a top 15 pick. I just think the package we get for 2018 Letang versus the package a contender may give us for 2018 Kessel is light years apart.

You contradict yourself here. If a #1 defenseman is much harder to replace (ie. much harder to acquire), then why would Kessel have more trade value than Letang when surely more teams need #1 defensemen than more easily acquired first line wingers?

I'd argue the opposite is true. I think trading Letang would yield a better package than trading Kessel precisely because teams covet that elusive #1D more than they do a 1RW.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because Letang just had a bad season?

We also have a 45 point center on contract next year as our 3C. Who was like actually seriously hurt.

 

[BladeRunner66]

That's an awesome gif!

On another note i still can't believe people are STILL talking about trading Kessel, the guy is a PO beast and the return would most probably be less. Last time i checked we're not in reconstruction mode folks.

 

[Hockey Freak 7]

The mistakes Letang made on the Kuznetsov goals were not just timely errors or common gaffes that plague any top pairing defensemen, they were the kind of mistakes you never see made by NHL defensemen. Even the lowest of the low on the worst teams don't leave an entire side of the ice open with a player rushing down the ice. It is insane to see that play happen in game 5 of the playoffs. It would have been eye-opening to happen in the pre-season. His attempt to top it in game 6 may have failed, but it was still an equally devastating gaffe that would have driven a lesser name onto the first bus out of town. Unbelievable that he failed to learn from his mistake in game 5 too.

I appreciate what Letang has done here over his career, but you simply can't excuse those type of plays in the playoffs - with him being supposedly healthy. You can't have players with that potential on the roster in clutch situations. Letang has to be removed from the roster in the offseason - period. Its the 800 lb Elephant right now. If they fail to deal with it and move on, they'll fail to make the playoffs next year. Guaranteed. The room will never find their invincibility and confidence if #58 is present amongst them. Those guys might kiss his behind in public, but deep down they know hes the guy to blame for their failure to 3peat. (I think winning in 2017 without him is a big part of it too).
After Letang is gone, i'd get Olli Maatta the shortest leash heading into 2018-2019. He might yet turn his career around, but i'd keep all eyes on him to be sure. I am sure it wasn't a coincidence that his biggest brain farts happened with #58 on the ice, so maybe he looks better with Letang out of the lineup.

Beyond that, you've got a good roster set for next season. Whatever returns gained from trading Letang are just a bonus. Get a 3-4 D, ideally a good right-handed shot, and you're all set.

Agree on Letang not Määttä..


I know he blame himself fully on the series loss in his interviews plus talking to others and Murray’s father passing really affected him ..besides bad D in front of him..

 

[Joejosh999]

Agree on Letang.
And it's NOT just that he had a bad season, which he did.
It's that he has always had these same mental gaffes. The noticeable difference this year is that, as he ages, he cannot any longer make up for his mistakes with his superior athleticism.

Now they're just mistakes. Which wind up in the net too often.

 

[Coach Travis]

Listened to a podcast the other day (LCS Hockey Radio Show, May 18) where Josh Yohe was on and he had some interesting insights from being around Penguins players during the year and after the last game. He said it wasn't the "devastation" of years past but after the initial shock wore off of losing in OT there was almost "relief" that they finally got a rest. And that's just human nature. They went back-to-back. They could've beaten Washington but there's no way they wanted it as badly. He also mentioned witnessing cracks in Matt Murray's demeanour in regards to his father several times and felt like that effected him more than he let on. Also mentioned Kris Letang blames himself for Game 5 fully.

Anyway, interesting perspective from a guy who actually gets to go in the room and gets to know the players.

 

[EightyOne]

He said it wasn't the "devastation" of years past but after the initial shock wore off of losing in OT there was almost "relief" that they finally got a rest. And that's just human nature. They went back-to-back. They could've beaten Washington but there's no way they wanted it as badly. He also mentioned witnessing cracks in Matt Murray's demeanour in regards to his father several times and felt like that effected him more than he let on. .

We expect robots. Not humans. They are rated 98 on EASports NHL whatever. They need to beat teams rated at 97. No excuses. I'm also not sure if I am sarcastic. Probably am, though.

. Also mentioned Kris Letang blames himself for Game 5 fully..

Right.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

. Also mentioned Kris Letang blames himself for Game 5 fully.

So essentially even Kris Letang would disagree with the folks on here who keep defending his play that game.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

But isn't the Martial Arts board always broken?