Post-mortem on the season

[Sidney the Kidney]

There are literally three posters on the last few pages of this thread blaming Letang.

And actually saying "Maatta has no blame AT ALL" on that play? Or simply saying Letang didn't play that 2 on 1 well?

The reason why it seems like Letang is getting an inordinate amount of blame is because he's got posters like you white knighting him. Maatta doesn't get that kind of defense, so any discussion of Maatta being at fault ends right then because no one goes on page after page arguing he wasn't at fault.

 

[Gurglesons]

And actually saying "Maatta has no blame AT ALL" on that play? Or simply saying Letang didn't play that 2 on 1 well?

The reason why it seems like Letang is getting an inordinate amount of blame is because he's got posters like you white knighting him. Maatta doesn't get that kind of defense, so any discussion of Maatta being at fault ends right then because no one goes on page after page arguing he wasn't at fault.

I mean, the fact that your straight up wrong about this situation is cool.

I agree with you most of the time. But, Letang did nothing wrong on that 2 on 1 just like Stralman didn’t.

It’s a high percentage play for the forwards. Especially when one of those forwards is the best goal scorer in the league.

 

[RSPens]

I'm sure its been mentioned and discussed, but I agree that the loss can't be pinned on Letang. It was a team effort. In general Dumolin was great, had some gaffes, but most games he was by far our best D-man. Ruhweedel was a lot better than most people give him credit for, he should be even better next year. Oleksiak was also good, with more polish he can be great. Maatta is a tough one for me. At times he can be reliable and can be useful. At other times he is flat-footed, makes dumb decisions and has me screaming at the TV. Now back to Letang, he is without a doubt a top pair defenceman. The problem for Letang seems to be lack of communication between him and whoever his partner is on the play and between the forwards. Almost any of the mistakes Letang made during the playoffs could have been covered for if the communication was there. So back to the start...the loss was a team effort. In general I think the Pens have a very adequate and capable d-core. The problem was team defence and team communication. It is the wingers responsibility to cover for the d-man and recognize when the d-man is likely to pinch. The wingers failed to cover for the D. The forwards didn't have a strong back check and were not strong enough in there own zone to help the D.

 

[RSPens]

I mean, the fact that your straight up wrong about this situation is cool.

I agree with you most of the time. But, Letang did nothing wrong on that 2 on 1 just like Stralman didn’t.

It’s a high percentage play for the forwards. Especially when one of those forwards is the best goal scorer in the league.

I never did play at a level higher than minor hockey. However I did play enough defence to know that in general when it comes to a 2 on 1, it is always best to take the pass away and give the goalie the shooter. Obviously you want to try to make it harder on the shooter by forcing them wide or making them hang on to long. Now when you are dealing with players like OV, Stamkos and Laine...you may try and cheat a little because these guys are known to be shooters and when given a shot from the hashmarks are likely to score. But the goalie will always prefer to have a clear sight of the shot. I haven't seen the Stralman play, but I think Letang cheated a bit too much and OV made him look foolish by passing the puck.

 

[Gurglesons]

I never did play at a level higher than minor hockey. However I did play enough defence to know that in general when it comes to a 2 on 1, it is always best to take the pass away and give the goalie the shooter. Obviously you want to try to make it harder on the shooter by forcing them wide or making them hang on to long. Now when you are dealing with players like OV, Stamkos and Laine...you may try and cheat a little because these guys are known to be shooters and when given a shot from the hashmarks are likely to score. But the goalie will always prefer to have a clear sight of the shot. I haven't seen the Stralman play, but I think Letang cheated a bit too much and OV made him look foolish by passing the puck.

Backstrom had the puck. Letang played the pass as far as he could literally till the bottom of the circle. Ovechkin got a bad angle shot, that Murray stopped.

Then the puck flew up in the air and Ovechkin nailed the puck in in midair.

The play was a beautiful skill play that had nothing to do with Letang or Murray who both played it as good as you could.

 

[MtlPenFan]

I'm sure it was already mentioned, but the uncalled penalty on Wilson was mostly to blame for Ovi's goal in game 3. Watch that over and over again and you can't find a reason NOT to call that regardless of how much time was left in that game.

Regardless, Maatta's play was a "guess." He had no idea what to do with the puck after an extended shift, and to not allow that shift to go to waste, he threw the puck into the middle of the ice. Awful.

I'd bang on Letang more in regards to how he played that situation if the sudden inability of defensemen to properly play a 2 on 1 hadn't become an epidemic in the last few years. By trying to do too much, they actually put their goalies in the unenviable situation of having to guess if a shot or pass are coming because their defenseman refuse to make it easy for them by just allowing them to do their jobs and play the shot.

Just watch Ovi's goal last night. You could smell the play coming because of the angle Strallman took. He hadn't backed up far enough and you just knew he was going to lay flat on the ice, allowing Kuznetzov to simply slide it to Ovi for a wide open net. It's embarrassing.

 

[RizzleMcRib]

Why is it if you point out that another player made a mistake in something Letang is getting blamed for, yet you'll be critical of Letang for obvious mistakes and bone head plays, you're labeled a Letang fanboy?

Are we not allowed to see the positive in a player?

 

[Ugene Magic]

I wouldn't call it a HUGE hit, but yeah we're short one borderline top 4 guy that fits our system.

No. It was a huge one in the sense you lost a complete top 4 pair of guys in Cole (Cole/Schultz and Daley (Maatta/Daley).

They went from having 3 top 4 pairings down to two. Dumoulin/Letang and Maatta/Schultz.

That's a big sacrifice/loss.

Oleksiak is fine, or Ruhweedel was fine, but the pair wasn't fine. They couldn't rely on them where they could pin them in for 18 to 20 min a game. They were forced to overplay the actual top 4.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Why is it if you point out that another player made a mistake in something Letang is getting blamed for, yet you'll be critical of Letang for obvious mistakes and bone head plays, you're labeled a Letang fanboy?

Are we not allowed to see the positive in a player?

It's no different than anyone who dares be critical of a play or various plays of Letang being automatically labeled as a hater or showing "Letang bias".

 

[Gurglesons]

It's no different than anyone who dares be critical of a play or various plays of Letang being automatically labeled as a hater or showing "Letang bias".

I think every single Letang fan defending him admits he has some huge defensive errors.

When people try to blame a 2 on 1 on him that was caused by another defenseman blindly passing the puck to the other team for literally no reason is when those people take issue with it.

It’s Kunitz all over again. Every GDT was just people going omg Letang every five posts. You’re level headed, do you really think he is that bad?

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm sure it was already mentioned, but the uncalled penalty on Wilson was mostly to blame for Ovi's goal in game 3. Watch that over and over again and you can't find a reason NOT to call that regardless of how much time was left in that game.

Regardless, Maatta's play was a "guess." He had no idea what to do with the puck after an extended shift, and to not allow that shift to go to waste, he threw the puck into the middle of the ice. Awful.

I'd bang on Letang more in regards to how he played that situation if the sudden inability of defensemen to properly play a 2 on 1 hadn't become an epidemic in the last few years. By trying to do too much, they actually put their goalies in the unenviable situation of having to guess if a shot or pass are coming because their defenseman refuse to make it easy for them by just allowing them to do their jobs and play the shot.

Just watch Ovi's goal last night. You could smell the play coming because of the angle Strallman took. He hadn't backed up far enough and you just knew he was going to lay flat on the ice, allowing Kuznetzov to simply slide it to Ovi for a wide open net. It's embarrassing.

I don’t really know what else you want defenders to do. If you give anyone in this league time enough to set up a shot, they are scoring these days. You can’t not pressure the puck carrier anymore because players can snipe drones out of the sky these days.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think every single Letang fan defending him admits he has some huge defensive errors.

When people try to blame a 2 on 1 on him that was caused by another defenseman blindly passing the puck to the other team for literally no reason is when those people take issue with it.

It’s Kunitz all over again. Every GDT was just people going omg Letang every five posts. You’re level headed, do you really think he is that bad?

I think he had a bad series versus Washington. I think he made more mental gaffs in that series than usual, that just so happened (whether by chance or whatever) occur during important situations. And my concern is as he ages and his physical gifts fade, we'll see more and more of those things because he's always relied on being a phenomenal athlete to cover for his mistakes.

I thought he was fine versus Philly and even advocated for him to be moved up to the top PP unit since Schultz refused to shoot (which was his one clear edge playing there over Letang).

Contrary to popular belief, I don't hate him or think he's terrible. I'm just concerned that as he ages, we'll see more of the Washington series stuff than the Philly series stuff from him.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think he had a bad series versus Washington. I think he made more mental gaffs in that series than usual, that just so happened (whether by chance or whatever) occur during important situations. And my concern is as he ages and his physical gifts fade, we'll see more and more of those things because he's always relied on being a phenomenal athlete to cover for his mistakes.

I thought he was fine versus Philly and even advocated for him to be moved up to the top PP unit since Schultz refused to shoot (which was his one clear edge playing there over Letang).

Contrary to popular belief, I don't hate him or think he's terrible. I'm just concerned that as he ages, we'll see more of the Washington series stuff than the Philly series stuff from him.

I think we all agree here.

This season and last season definitely put the rest to Letang being “untouchable”.

He’s still in the Kessel boat for me. And if you look at his stats there was a bizarre regression. He’s still young enough where he’ll likely be valuable to us this year and next at minimum.

I don’t think I’d be surprised if he was traded and we got better.

I also think our team defense was absolutely atrocious against the Caps which severely effected Letang. Maatta and Ruh got completely butchered as well.

 

[RSPens]

Backstrom had the puck. Letang played the pass as far as he could literally till the bottom of the circle. Ovechkin got a bad angle shot, that Murray stopped.

Then the puck flew up in the air and Ovechkin nailed the puck in in midair.

The play was a beautiful skill play that had nothing to do with Letang or Murray who both played it as good as you could.

Sorry we must be talking about different plays. The one I'm talking about was where Letang committed to OV, but OV passed to Kuznetzov for the game winning goal. I Can't remember which game it was.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sorry we must be talking about different plays. The one I'm talking about was where Letang committed to OV, but OV passed to Kuznetzov for the game winning goal. I Can't remember which game it was.

Game 6. Yeah, weird play all around with Crosby and Dumo.

 

[RizzleMcRib]

I think he had a bad series versus Washington. I think he made more mental gaffs in that series than usual, that just so happened (whether by chance or whatever) occur during important situations. And my concern is as he ages and his physical gifts fade, we'll see more and more of those things because he's always relied on being a phenomenal athlete to cover for his mistakes.

I thought he was fine versus Philly and even advocated for him to be moved up to the top PP unit since Schultz refused to shoot (which was his one clear edge playing there over Letang).

Contrary to popular belief, I don't hate him or think he's terrible. I'm just concerned that as he ages, we'll see more of the Washington series stuff than the Philly series stuff from him.

I have 0 gripes about what you said. I'll agree with you and I think any Letang "fanboy" would too.

 

[DearDiary]

Everyone here bashing Letang should have watched the Predators. Letang looked like a Selke contender compared to Subban and Josi

Letangs poor defensive decisions hasn't changed since 2016, what's changed is his skating and reaction speed which are much worse. Yet, he keeps playing as if nothings changed so he keeps overestimating his gap with his D partner and attacking players.

I'd give him an offseason to see how he trains, then make a decision about trades 10 games into the season. If he hasn't adjusted to his regression then there's no point in hanging onto his ignorance.

 

[cygnus47]

No. It was a huge one in the sense you lost a complete top 4 pair of guys in Cole (Cole/Schultz and Daley (Maatta/Daley).

They went from having 3 top 4 pairings down to two. Dumoulin/Letang and Maatta/Schultz.

That's a big sacrifice/loss.

Oleksiak is fine, or Ruhweedel was fine, but the pair wasn't fine. They couldn't rely on them where they could pin them in for 18 to 20 min a game. They were forced to overplay the actual top 4.

Cole and Daley aren't any better than Oleksiak and none are consistent top 4 guys. Daley had a great run in 2016 but Oleksiak is just as capable of doing that for a run. What I'm saying is that we need one more at that level or slightly better.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Cole and Daley aren't any better than Oleksiak and none are consistent top 4 guys. Daley had a great run in 2016 but Oleksiak is just as capable of doing that for a run. What I'm saying is that we need one more at that level or slightly better.

They're definitely better than Oleksiak. Like he's really not good away from the puck.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Cole and Daley aren't any better than Oleksiak and none are consistent top 4 guys. Daley had a great run in 2016 but Oleksiak is just as capable of doing that for a run. What I'm saying is that we need one more at that level or slightly better.

Daley in 2016 was a legitimate #2/#3 puck mover who we haven't really replaced since Daley got injured in 2017/left via free agency.

If we had a 2016 version of Daley on the roster, I'd feel more confident about our blueline going into next season.

 

[Peat]

They're definitely better than Oleksiak. Like he's really not good away from the puck.

I am also roughly of this mind. I like Oleksiak on the rush and I like when he's got a one on one duel with a forward in the corners, but some of his positioning and decision making in our zone has been questionable. I am excited to see what he can do but I think he could really use a Cole type to come in and hold his hand.

Daley in 2016 was a legitimate #2/#3 puck mover who we haven't really replaced since Daley got injured in 2017/left via free agency.

If we had a 2016 version of Daley on the roster, I'd feel more confident about our blueline going into next season.

I feel like Schultz was meant to be this guy and while he's good and sorely missed when not here, he's not a Daley style transition dman. Another skater like 2016 Daley seems like a really important move to me, although I'm not sure the management agree.

...

One possible thing to do with the defence, cap and assets permitting, would be to completely redo the bottom pairing. Get a pair of solid yeomen and either play them as a checking bottom line pairing with Maatta-Schultz set free to attack, or split Maatta and Schultz to one of those guys each for two balanced pairings that allows both Maatta and Schultz to be a bit more head on in attacking. Oleksiak becomes 7th dman with the versatility to step in roughly where ever needed as he develops the all round game needed to be a regular feature. Probably try and smuggle Ruh through waivers in that scenario - I like him a lot, but not enough to not try and pursue a better option.

 

[SouthGeorge]

This theory that the Penguins struggled in 2017 playoffs without Letang. Caps averaged 2.5 goals in 7 games and they held them to 0 in Game 7. Sorry, that's not happening with Letang on the ice. Caps averaged 3.1 goals this series. That's the difference right there. One stupid Letang mistake that leads to a goal = series over.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

This theory that the Penguins struggled in 2017 playoffs without Letang. Caps averaged 2.5 goals in 7 games and they held them to 0 in Game 7. Sorry, that's not happening with Letang on the ice. Caps averaged 3.1 goals this series. That's the difference right there. One stupid Letang goal a game = series over.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[SouthGeorge]

Correlation does not equal causation.

Yeah, I watched Letang cause at least 3 back breaking/game winning goals. I didn't need that stat that's just for the people who can't see it.

 

[The Old Master]

Correlation does not equal causation.

ya! I agree with him.....what ever it means.