Portland Diamond Project picks land for potential MLB team stadium

[Voight]

Portland Diamond Project picks land for potential MLB team stadium

The Portland Diamond Project announced Tuesday that they are in negotiations to acquire the 164-acre Red Tail Golf Course.

www.kptv.com

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[LightningStorm]

I'd love having a 2nd team in the Pacific Northwest. Ideally it would be an NL team with the Mariners in the AL.

 

[Voight]

I'd love having a 2nd team in the Pacific Northwest. Ideally it would be an NL team with the Mariners in the AL.

If they wanted any sort of balance, could put a team in Nashvegas and Portland.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Portland in the MLB would be a major positive in reversing the isolation of Seattle, though watch 'em get an NL team instead.

Too late, though. Portland Athletics would've made worlds more sense than the reality.

 

[PCSPounder]

Most people in the Portland area are incredulous about this. They shouldn’t be.

What they see is a site across from a mall on a four-lane freeway where the mall already overloads the traffic. There’s not sufficient transit there, the crowding can be more than a bit much, there’s not exactly straight routes to the site from points east, and the local terrain and price of land prevents improvements to traffic and transit from those points east.

(By the way, not necessarily disclaimers… I live 2.5 miles from the site, traffic isn’t great along that way anyway, and I pretty much learned golf at Progress Downs, now known as RedTail.)

Meanwhile, I would tell the incredulous the following:

I think it’s virtually assured that the city of Portland will counteroffer for AT LEAST $100 million for the site. Some of the incredulous already noted that $7 per square foot (for the $50 million offer) was really damn cheap.

The city didn’t exactly provoke a public examination of how to improve transit and driving options when PDP originally proposed the Terminal 2 site. Which is to say that, while the city says they support the PDP effort, they’re not exactly helping.

PDP gave up on a much more centrally located site at the failing Lloyd Center mall. They’re probably right to assert that dealing with more than 30 landowners caused more problems than they could solve. But I suspect they’re not funded well enough to make Lloyd Center work, and that means they aren’t going to be able to handle franchise inflation should that occur. That’s probably one reason the city of Portland kept them at arm’s length in the first place.

I don’t think Washington County or Beaverton or Tigard or the state of Oregon really wants to deal with this. Highway 217 has been under “realignment” adding auxiliary lanes to both sides of the freeway for the last two years, and the project will take almost two more years. An actual widening requires buying more property. So does a transit reroute.

But let’s say that PDP actually does buy the land. It is too close to 217, and the city of Portland isn’t making money from golf operation, and that’s not including the property tax they’re now paying because the city of Portland owns this land, but Beaverton annexed it. So I don’t think the golf course is long for the world regardless. What you can put in there will eventually divert revenue from the mall. Even though Washington Square is one of the top performing malls in the USA, it isn’t what it was. I can see a future where the mall is repurposed and the major access to the RedTail property goes through the mall site rather than Scholls Ferry Road.

So I don’t give 50-50 odds of this happening. If some of it does happen, it’ll be somewhat self-mitigating. Except I don’t think PDP is actually mindful of the rational solution.

 

[KevFu]

Portland in the MLB would be a major positive in reversing the isolation of Seattle, though watch 'em get an NL team instead.

Too late, though. Portland Athletics would've made worlds more sense than the reality.

The concept of AL & NL each having a rep in each area made perfect sense, and still does.

However they screwed the pooch in the 1990s, when they ticked off Tampa and had to expand to get Congress off their backs.

MLB needed someone to join with the Rays, and Jerry Colangelo used that desperation to get an NL team instead of an AL team, when Arizona should have been the "AL's Mountain Team" opposite Colorado.

If they put Arizona and Tampa in the AL for 16 teams and did three divisions, but with 5-6-5 in the AL, and 4-5-5 in the NL, it's much cleaner.

 

[PCSPounder]

There was a tweet from a current commissioner and mayoral candidate last night that flew under the radar. He‘s not someone who’s deserving of me posting the tweet here. However, it’s both curious and telling.

”We have to protect and strengthen the heart of the city. Baseball at Lloyd Center would do that.” (Um, not really)

”There are considerable challenges with the site. If we can work to get a deal done there, we should. If we can’t, we should be able to explain why. The window is closing rapidly.” (I recall a comment this week about the mayor supposedly saying he was trying to work with them, but PDP’s comments about having to work with more than 30 landowners at the site tells me a few things, some not good for anyone. No doubt it’s the better site. But the city is known to have a close group of developer friends with their own visions for the site.)

“Before any vote to put Red Tail Golf Course on the table as an alternative, the City should receive answers to the following questions: Who is the ownership/investing group? Will it only be for baseball? How do they plan to address the major traffic issues that would come with this development in the suburbs? Most importantly, what will the impact of such major suburban development be on Portland’s urban core?”

That first question was the boom. PDP is pretty public about the peripheral investors in the organization, but those people do not represent enough money to get any of this done. So they’re hiding something… but are they hiding the whale investor, or are they hiding the lack of a whale investor? Some say PDP is good at selling merch and less good at, well, anything else. So it seems like neither side is really suited to work with the other.

It’s even more telling that PDP made noise about negotiating with suburbs after Terminal 2 fell out of favor, and the only site to come out of that is owned by Portland. Shrug.

 

[KevFu]

I've kind of been rooting for Portland to get a team simply because their merch was cool.

The logo that had Portland: AL OR NL, with the OR part applying both to Portland and league choice was clever AF.

 

[hangman005]

They can have the A's

 

[PCSPounder]

I've kind of been rooting for Portland to get a team simply because their merch was cool.

The logo that had Portland: AL OR NL, with the OR part applying both to Portland and league choice was clever AF.

I have seen numerous accusations for some time that they’re in existence to sell merch and… ummmm… we’re waiting.

Just know that I made a blog post daring them to actually buy the golf course and wreck my traffic… the inference being at what the city would eventually ask, not the piddly $53 million.

 

[KevFu]

Yeah, they definitely seem like a "don't have a really serious bid" group.

Like I said in the other thread (SLC), the lack of momentum on expansion by MLB (caused by the A's and Rays) has really led to a lot of stadium fatigue.

"Missing a window" is very real in expansion. The Nashville was gung-ho and then they built an MLS stadium on that land instead, forcing the baseball group to pick a new spot, which has tons of opposition. Montreal sounded like they could be serious, and working with the Rays on the weird split plan... but that died and instead of "good, we need a full-time team" it's now "Why are we spending $1 billion on the Big O's roof again?"

The idea was that expansion would hurt the chances of TB/OAK to get stadium deals done, because it would eliminate places for them to relocate to. Back 5-6 years ago, maybe even 2-3, I said that was smart because it's like a game of musical chairs: The goal was to have 4 markets seriously interested in adding baseball so that Tampa and Oakland moved on stadiums, fearing they could both lose their teams to those four markets plus two expansion teams.

But that works both ways: NOT going forward with an expansion committee and exploratory process, the eagerness of cities waned.

Manfred and Fisher bungled this where it seems we're down to one city for two expansion teams and no stadium deals in Oakland and Tampa.

 

[HisIceness]

Anything that prevents Charlotte from getting a team is good with me! Go Portland go!

 

[PCSPounder]

Portland Diamond Project says it has agreement for baseball stadium at South Waterfront site

The Portland Diamond Project characterized its agreement as a letter of intent to buy the former shipyard.

www.oregonlive.com

Funny to see the start of this thread saying PDP “was in negotiations” to buy the golf course site. NOW we’re talking about a location south of downtown along the Willamette River, though on first blush, it doesn’t necessarily lend itself to a broader development opportunity.

Then again, it’s PDP claiming they have an agreement. Fair to wait for Zidell to attend the press conference before taking this seriously. However, the lack of greater space is different.

 

[many76]

Anyone know what a a team training facility is

“Canzano reported Monday night that the group still wants to purchase the RedTail property, but not for its stadium site. Instead it would be for team training facilities and youth baseball fields.”

I thought it could have something to do with spring training, but all MLB teams are either in Florida or Arizona, and as far as I know I have never heard of a team training facility when it comes to MLB.

 

[The Marquis]

Anyone know what a a team training facility is

“Canzano reported Monday night that the group still wants to purchase the RedTail property, but not for its stadium site. Instead it would be for team training facilities and youth baseball fields.”

I thought it could have something to do with spring training, but all MLB teams are either in Florida or Arizona, and as far as I know I have never heard of a team training facility when it comes to MLB.

If this happens (read: It won’t) the Zidell Yards property (tipped as the new stadium location) is very very small and would squeeze in a stadium in such a way that training facilities within it could be problematic. That’s about my only thought. I don’t take any of this seriously at all anymore. It’s just not happening.

 

[The Marquis]

I just did a bit of measuring on Google Maps. Turns out the Zidell Yard property (the north unit) has a bigger footprint than Target Field, so it's totally doable.

It's an especially great location for a stadium because it's already got the public transit as the Portland Street Car Loop Lines meet the Orange MAX line at the property. Right there at it, no walking at all.

Doesn't matter though, no way it's happening.

 

[PCSPounder]

I just did a bit of measuring on Google Maps. Turns out the Zidell Yard property (the north unit) has a bigger footprint than Target Field, so it's totally doable.

It's an especially great location for a stadium because it's already got the public transit as the Portland Street Car Loop Lines meet the Orange MAX line at the property. Right there at it, no walking at all.

Doesn't matter though, no way it's happening.

They were talking about a training facility at the golf course they still want to buy, while claiming they want to spend only $30 million on that now. Probably 30-35% of the market price.

In short, not a serious group.

 

[The Marquis]

They were talking about a training facility at the golf course they still want to buy, while claiming they want to spend only $30 million on that now. Probably 30-35% of the market price.

In short, not a serious group.

The money just isn't there. I will take a dump in my favorite Mariners hat, throw it up in the air and shoot it if this actually happens, because I'm positive it won't.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Count me as another pro-Portland individual who has absolutely no expectation of things coming together as needed.


Portland in MLB would be awesome and would add some desperately needed variety in the northwest.

 

[LadyStanley]

Video showing potential ball park location. 15 acres on one side of dissecting bridge, 13 on the other.

 

[The Marquis]

Video showing potential ball park location. 15 acres on one side of dissecting bridge, 13 on the other.

I walk by this site on a regular basis, the northern lot is a perfect size for a stadium. Fits the entirety of Target Field (randomly chosen) within its footprint. Traffic would be an issue in that area, but it is already perfectly set up for public transit. There is a Light Rail line (like the subway, but above ground), and 3 street car lines that converge there along with several bus lines. I don’t mean blocks away, I mean they all run and stop right there at that property. The best case scenario is parking on the southern lot, stadium on the northern lot and some improvements for traffic flow. Access to I-5 is very very close, it aside from it being right for driving right at the site, everything else is actually perfect.

That said, where is the money, not just for the stadium, but for the expansion fees and running the team. It’s hard to believe that Russell Wilson and A former Nike Executive would have the money to own an MLB team.

I say this every time… it’s Portland, it won’t happen.

 

[aqib]

Yeah, they definitely seem like a "don't have a really serious bid" group.

Like I said in the other thread (SLC), the lack of momentum on expansion by MLB (caused by the A's and Rays) has really led to a lot of stadium fatigue.

"Missing a window" is very real in expansion. The Nashville was gung-ho and then they built an MLS stadium on that land instead, forcing the baseball group to pick a new spot, which has tons of opposition. Montreal sounded like they could be serious, and working with the Rays on the weird split plan... but that died and instead of "good, we need a full-time team" it's now "Why are we spending $1 billion on the Big O's roof again?"

The idea was that expansion would hurt the chances of TB/OAK to get stadium deals done, because it would eliminate places for them to relocate to. Back 5-6 years ago, maybe even 2-3, I said that was smart because it's like a game of musical chairs: The goal was to have 4 markets seriously interested in adding baseball so that Tampa and Oakland moved on stadiums, fearing they could both lose their teams to those four markets plus two expansion teams.

But that works both ways: NOT going forward with an expansion committee and exploratory process, the eagerness of cities waned.

Manfred and Fisher bungled this where it seems we're down to one city for two expansion teams and no stadium deals in Oakland and Tampa.

No one really understands why they are renovating the Olympic Stadium other than its a fixture on the skyline. They say for events like Taylor Swift but thats one tour that happens every few years. I am not sure how many other events they get. I read somewhere the building can do $150 million in revenue and that sounds high.

I wonder if the eargerness waning is because the costs have skyrocketed. The Braves stadium cost $672 million in 2017. The Rangers Stadium in cost $1.1 billion in 2020. Both hold over 40K seats. The Vegas A's stadium is expected to cot $2 billion for 30K seats.

 

[KevFu]

No one really understands why they are renovating the Olympic Stadium other than its a fixture on the skyline. They say for events like Taylor Swift but thats one tour that happens every few years. I am not sure how many other events they get. I read somewhere the building can do $150 million in revenue and that sounds high.

I wonder if the eargerness waning is because the costs have skyrocketed. The Braves stadium cost $672 million in 2017. The Rangers Stadium in cost $1.1 billion in 2020. Both hold over 40K seats. The Vegas A's stadium is expected to cot $2 billion for 30K seats.

Well the cost for Rangers and Vegas are so high because of roofs and AC. It's not that building a replica of Atlanta's stadium in Las Vegas would now cost $2 billion instead of $672m.

(The Mets pitching staff would be in much better shape right now if Atlanta had spent $1.1 billion to build a roof).

But yeah, it IS a ton of money. It's also the case of baseball stadiums just not having very many alternate uses. Baseball expansion is A LOT MORE "threading the needle" than NHL/NBA expansion.

Teams that bid on the 1993 expansion and lost, basically submitted "we'll take an MLB team if you give us one" bids in 1998, but three cities - Buffalo, Charlotte and Nashville -- built Triple A stadiums after they lost the expansion bid; and then it was like "Well we could expand the park..." but MLB said "That's never going to work, you'll be a problem from day one."

The one thing that's exciting about THIS expansion, is that it's only the second expansion in the history of MLB that isn't caused by politicians and lawyers.

1961/62 - Bill Shea and the DC politicians who lost the Senators.
1969 - KC politicians after the A's moved.
1977 - Seattle politicians after the Pilots moved.
1998 - Florida politicians after Tampa missed out on the White Sox, 1993 expansion and the Giants.

Only Colorado/Miami were added because the league decided "you know what, it's time to expand!"

 

[The Marquis]

Well the cost for Rangers and Vegas are so high because of roofs and AC. It's not that building a replica of Atlanta's stadium in Las Vegas would now cost $2 billion instead of $672m.

(The Mets pitching staff would be in much better shape right now if Atlanta had spent $1.1 billion to build a roof).

But yeah, it IS a ton of money. It's also the case of baseball stadiums just not having very many alternate uses. Baseball expansion is A LOT MORE "threading the needle" than NHL/NBA expansion.

Teams that bid on the 1993 expansion and lost, basically submitted "we'll take an MLB team if you give us one" bids in 1998, but three cities - Buffalo, Charlotte and Nashville -- built Triple A stadiums after they lost the expansion bid; and then it was like "Well we could expand the park..." but MLB said "That's never going to work, you'll be a problem from day one."

The one thing that's exciting about THIS expansion, is that it's only the second expansion in the history of MLB that isn't caused by politicians and lawyers.

1961/62 - Bill Shea and the DC politicians who lost the Senators.
1969 - KC politicians after the A's moved.
1977 - Seattle politicians after the Pilots moved.
1998 - Florida politicians after Tampa missed out on the White Sox, 1993 expansion and the Giants.

Only Colorado/Miami were added because the league decided "you know what, it's time to expand!"

One thing that helps baseball stadiums is that they have 81 dates filled every year for sure and possibly additional dates just for baseball, so they don't have as much pressure to fill dates. I'd say NFL stadiums have a lot more trouble with that. There aren't that many musical acts or events with that kind of drawing power.

 

[aqib]

Well the cost for Rangers and Vegas are so high because of roofs and AC. It's not that building a replica of Atlanta's stadium in Las Vegas would now cost $2 billion instead of $672m.

(The Mets pitching staff would be in much better shape right now if Atlanta had spent $1.1 billion to build a roof).

But yeah, it IS a ton of money. It's also the case of baseball stadiums just not having very many alternate uses. Baseball expansion is A LOT MORE "threading the needle" than NHL/NBA expansion.

Teams that bid on the 1993 expansion and lost, basically submitted "we'll take an MLB team if you give us one" bids in 1998, but three cities - Buffalo, Charlotte and Nashville -- built Triple A stadiums after they lost the expansion bid; and then it was like "Well we could expand the park..." but MLB said "That's never going to work, you'll be a problem from day one."

The one thing that's exciting about THIS expansion, is that it's only the second expansion in the history of MLB that isn't caused by politicians and lawyers.

1961/62 - Bill Shea and the DC politicians who lost the Senators.
1969 - KC politicians after the A's moved.
1977 - Seattle politicians after the Pilots moved.
1998 - Florida politicians after Tampa missed out on the White Sox, 1993 expansion and the Giants.

Only Colorado/Miami were added because the league decided "you know what, it's time to expand!"

The Rangers had a retractable roof and cost $1.1 billion. Now Vegas is over $2 billion and will be smaller. The costs of building anything has skyrocketed. St Louis's proposed open air stadium for the Rams was about $1 billion the new Bills Stadium will be $1.7 billion. The new Flames arena is much more than twice the Oilers arena, etc.