POLL: Why have we started so badly?
- Thread starter Maliks PlusMinus
- Start date
Machinehead
The Olli react should add points!
Placid
Registered User
- Feb 17, 2010
- 5,906
- 339
Pretty much the same as i did, hehe
At this point, as far as i can tell, it is a management problem, not a player problem. Its really just a continuation of whats driven me nuts for a long time.. AV never has a plan B, he does not make adjustments... he just clamps down and chews his gum harder when things are not going well... now there are cracks and holes everywhere down the lineup.. yet apart from switching out rookies with "trusted veterans", he makes precious few changes..
Our defensive system was completely undressed last season, with none of our players in the middle in the defensive zone, and the opposition practically collecting queue tickets to take free unobstructed shots from the general slot area. That deficiency is still there in all its glory... just *sigh*...
Chaels Arms
Formerly Lias Andersson
I think it's a combination of having terrible centers and AV not distributing ice time in a logical manner.
The center thing is just obvious. Any non-biased observer could have seen this coming into the season. Pinning your hopes on Hayes being a consistent #2C was always a losing proposition. It's not going to happen with him so now we have Desharnais playing out of his depth. As someone else said earlier the scary part is that it could get much worse once Zib cools down or if there's any injury to any of the C's.
Buch needs more minutes. Shatt should be getting more time too.
The center thing is just obvious. Any non-biased observer could have seen this coming into the season. Pinning your hopes on Hayes being a consistent #2C was always a losing proposition. It's not going to happen with him so now we have Desharnais playing out of his depth. As someone else said earlier the scary part is that it could get much worse once Zib cools down or if there's any injury to any of the C's.
Buch needs more minutes. Shatt should be getting more time too.
Inferno
Registered User
the further this team gets from Torts, the worse it defends.
Machinehead
The Olli react should add points!
Well less Torts correlates with more AV in this scenario.
I think the latter carries the causation.
eco's bones
Registered User
I checked up a couple days on how Tampa fans feel about Girardi and lo and behold they don't think he's the worst player in the league like so many on this board insisted he was. The consensus there is he's a really good 5-6 d-man--give him 15-18 minutes a game and as much penalty kill time as you can and you've got a good player.
Which is to say I think that AV's man on man defensive scheme had a lot to do with exposing the weaknesses of Girardi particularly but also Klein and Staal. Now it's true that they worked at modifying it to accommodate those players and that they still gave those players plenty of ice time but a zone style of defense IMO would have been a lot better and IMO it would still be better now. The other thing on that is I think the rest of the NHL may have caught up with how best to deal with the Rangers unique way of defending and breaking up the ice because it seems to me there are very few long bomb stretch passes that are going out of our zone--you don't see for instance Kreider on the breakaway or getting the step on somebody. Other teams are hemming us in in our zone and breaking down our attack in the neutral zone--a lot more than we're use to seeing.
Which is to say I think that AV's man on man defensive scheme had a lot to do with exposing the weaknesses of Girardi particularly but also Klein and Staal. Now it's true that they worked at modifying it to accommodate those players and that they still gave those players plenty of ice time but a zone style of defense IMO would have been a lot better and IMO it would still be better now. The other thing on that is I think the rest of the NHL may have caught up with how best to deal with the Rangers unique way of defending and breaking up the ice because it seems to me there are very few long bomb stretch passes that are going out of our zone--you don't see for instance Kreider on the breakaway or getting the step on somebody. Other teams are hemming us in in our zone and breaking down our attack in the neutral zone--a lot more than we're use to seeing.
mandiblesofdoom
Registered User
- May 24, 2012
- 2,320
- 2,125
Don't really know enough to say - but I would love to see this team play a different way under a different coach. AV's misuse of personnel makes it difficult to know what the other issues are.
1. AV is the dominant reason for epic fail, mostly due to his effed up lines that are constantly shifted too much with no stability = no familiarity = less/no chemistry.
2. In addition to the lines, he unreasonably favors vets at cost of young talent which must be developed.
3. The win now mentality for which Torts and AV are most to blame, with Slats an accomplice. Consider Gorton trying to clean up the mess as best he can.
4. We do not have enough horses, let alone star or superstar talent. However, if we made a few key trades, we could create synergy that would work.
Immediately: Kreider-Miller-Zib
trade popular and terrif McD + Zuc who extending will be cap difficult, do it now for top $; if possible add to that and get MacKinnon. DeAngelo ++ for Sam Reinhart +. Then can do
Kreider-Boo-MacK
Miller-Reinhart-Zib
Chytil-Hayes-Vesey
and we get creative w/4th line.
That's 3 lines dominant/very strong.
5. Roster moves which appear to be GMJG dealing w/lesser of 2 evils.
a. Kept Staal instead b/o Girardi:
while MS has been a pleasant surprise so far, it was decided to take the lesser cap hit long term by buying out DG instead. However, MS has NMNTC and DG could have been dealt at 50% for a conditional 7th. In retrospect, THAT is what should have been done.
b. DeSharnais sucks. Should have gone w/Boo from sq1, probably hedging if he showed up in TC w/concussion issues.
6. Ya wanna have an omelette,, ya gotta break some eggs. Some of you guys would love MacKinnon, but then you won't overpay to get him, 'cause we are moving a fan favorite or 2. Top talent costs top $, and pre-elite/elite all the more so.
It is all about the currency you use. You keep Skjei and Chytil or JT and trade McDonagh and Zuc so you stay ahead of the curve on cap restraints as to salary w/out the club getting too old too fast.
2. In addition to the lines, he unreasonably favors vets at cost of young talent which must be developed.
3. The win now mentality for which Torts and AV are most to blame, with Slats an accomplice. Consider Gorton trying to clean up the mess as best he can.
4. We do not have enough horses, let alone star or superstar talent. However, if we made a few key trades, we could create synergy that would work.
Immediately: Kreider-Miller-Zib
trade popular and terrif McD + Zuc who extending will be cap difficult, do it now for top $; if possible add to that and get MacKinnon. DeAngelo ++ for Sam Reinhart +. Then can do
Kreider-Boo-MacK
Miller-Reinhart-Zib
Chytil-Hayes-Vesey
and we get creative w/4th line.
That's 3 lines dominant/very strong.
5. Roster moves which appear to be GMJG dealing w/lesser of 2 evils.
a. Kept Staal instead b/o Girardi:
while MS has been a pleasant surprise so far, it was decided to take the lesser cap hit long term by buying out DG instead. However, MS has NMNTC and DG could have been dealt at 50% for a conditional 7th. In retrospect, THAT is what should have been done.
b. DeSharnais sucks. Should have gone w/Boo from sq1, probably hedging if he showed up in TC w/concussion issues.
6. Ya wanna have an omelette,, ya gotta break some eggs. Some of you guys would love MacKinnon, but then you won't overpay to get him, 'cause we are moving a fan favorite or 2. Top talent costs top $, and pre-elite/elite all the more so.
It is all about the currency you use. You keep Skjei and Chytil or JT and trade McDonagh and Zuc so you stay ahead of the curve on cap restraints as to salary w/out the club getting too old too fast.
KirkAlbuquerque
#FireSullivan
Larrybiv
We're CLEAN, we PROMISE!
Went with the obvious of goaltending and d zone. The not so obvious and probably the MOST GLARING if you think hard and dig a little deeper are the off season moves.
Losing Stepan and Dan took away AV's and Hank's defensive blankets and replaced by basically nothing thus far. Moves made for the future......right now nothing and a big downgrade in personnel and defensive structure.
Don't get me wrong.....happy about those moves, but right now we are hurting because of.
Agree that McD and Zuccha need to be moved to catch up with the rest of the league with future talent......we have little and need MORE. Zuccha would hurt me immensely, but may need to be done. Imagine what he could do with a winger like Kane and a good center like Toews.
Losing Stepan and Dan took away AV's and Hank's defensive blankets and replaced by basically nothing thus far. Moves made for the future......right now nothing and a big downgrade in personnel and defensive structure.
Don't get me wrong.....happy about those moves, but right now we are hurting because of.
Agree that McD and Zuccha need to be moved to catch up with the rest of the league with future talent......we have little and need MORE. Zuccha would hurt me immensely, but may need to be done. Imagine what he could do with a winger like Kane and a good center like Toews.
Larrybiv
We're CLEAN, we PROMISE!
Oh yeah btw......what d zone system? Too much mix and matching. Trade Holden already, and bring up Pionk or ADA and let them grow and gain experience the hard way.
Stick with pairings forcing them to adapt to one another. Too much guesswork daily.
Stick with pairings forcing them to adapt to one another. Too much guesswork daily.
Captain Lindy
Formerly known as Kreider Beast
pld459666
Registered User
The room is left to manage itself. It's a trait that AV has employed in all three stops. With, in my humble opinion, no real leaders on the team, no one it held accountable for poor play.
The coach did not make an effort to foster any sort of chemistry with the forwards as they played mis-moshed lines throughout pre-season. Same as the Defence.
Goaltending has been an issue.
Players playing below their expected norms. No one really playing above what was expected in the way that Grabner and Vesey did early last season.
Continued regression of Rick Nash, Kreider pulling an early Claude Rains on the season
There are a few reasons, and I do hope it continues. I have no doubt that GMJG will keep the 1st we have in 18 and I hope that a move or two can be made to acquire another 1st in 18. This team is a cluster buck right now and the longer that is the case, the better.
The coach did not make an effort to foster any sort of chemistry with the forwards as they played mis-moshed lines throughout pre-season. Same as the Defence.
Goaltending has been an issue.
Players playing below their expected norms. No one really playing above what was expected in the way that Grabner and Vesey did early last season.
Continued regression of Rick Nash, Kreider pulling an early Claude Rains on the season
There are a few reasons, and I do hope it continues. I have no doubt that GMJG will keep the 1st we have in 18 and I hope that a move or two can be made to acquire another 1st in 18. This team is a cluster buck right now and the longer that is the case, the better.
eco's bones
Registered User
It's almost like we're going without leaders. McDonagh, Lundqvist and Zuccarello are really the three guys who will lead and none of them are playing well. I found it interesting hearing Nash's remarks on his 1000th game that he likes it best to be in the background. When the guy who you'd want to lead your offense prefers just to be another one of the guys you know he ain't a leader. I might have not played at a very high level but I do know that the guy(s) who score goals are almost always arrogant pricks like singers or lead guitar players in R&R bands. Nash doesn't have the swagger or arrogance anymore and for his cap hit that hurts. So to me the room is way too complacent---there is no edge to the team and no anger (or not enough) when they lose.
mrhockey193195
Registered User
Defensive naivety and lack of effort are the biggest for me. One of the great legacies Torts left with this team was for the forwards and defensemen to always be in the right position (to break up passes, block shots, keep opponents to the perimeter). That mindset has slowly left the team. We're seeing lazy backchecking, guys grossly out of position, and forwards jumping the zone too early.
Grabner is one of the biggest culprits to me. Everyone talks about him as a great defensive player. I disagree. He makes "flashy" defensive plays every once in a while, like intercepting a pass and breaking the other way. But the guy is out of position more often than not in his own zone.
Grabner is one of the biggest culprits to me. Everyone talks about him as a great defensive player. I disagree. He makes "flashy" defensive plays every once in a while, like intercepting a pass and breaking the other way. But the guy is out of position more often than not in his own zone.
- Jul 6, 2017
- 13,233
- 14,800
Went with:
- Defensive system: lends itself to too many mistakes; requires consistent motion (which can be especially exhausting on long shifts) and roster-wide superior defensive awareness (which our players lack). Few defensemen (including McD) meet those criteria.
- Lines: AV changes them seemingly systematically and even randomly. Players aren’t given time to feel each other out; ice time is all too often not commensurate with output or skill level.
- Lack of star player: we don’t have a Karlsson, a Stamkos, an OV, a McDavid, etc. We need a game-breaker to lead the way (or, at worst, keep the opposing top defenders busy while our other lines score).
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