Poll: Whose Jerseys Should be in the Rafters (Honoring ex-Whalers?)

[garnetpalmetto]

So given the overwhelming (and to me, surprising) response to Dundon wanting to embrace Whaler's history within the franchise, something sprang to mind. There are several retired Whalers numbers that are presently in circulation in the franchise. What I'd like is for us to discuss which jerseys should be enshrined in the rafters at PNC. This is sort of a two-step thread - first, there's a poll where I'd like you to select which jerseys you think should be permanently retired at PNC and in the rafters. I'm including the retired Canes jerseys as well because why not. I'm also including numbers that were unofficially retired and numbers that were retired or honored in Hartford either when the team was there or after the fact.

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Jersey #[/TD]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]Franchise Career[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]

Current Status​

[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Rick Ley[/TD]
[TD]1972-1981[/TD]
[TD] # retired in Hartford on 12/26/82, # returned to circulation upon relocation to Carolina[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2[/TD]
[TD]Glen Wesley[/TD]
[TD]1994-2008[/TD]
[TD] # retired on 2/17/09[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]3[/TD]
[TD]Steve Chiasson[/TD]
[TD]1996-1999[/TD]
[TD] # unofficially retired after Chiasson's death[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]5[/TD]
[TD]Ulf Samuelsson[/TD]
[TD]1984-1991[/TD]
[TD] # honored in Hartford on 1/6/06, # in circulation in Carolina[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]9[/TD]
[TD]Gordie Howe[/TD]
[TD]1977-1980[/TD]
[TD] # retired in Hartford on 2/18/81, # unofficially retired in Carolina[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]10[/TD]
[TD]Ron Francis[/TD]
[TD]1981-1991; 1998-2004[/TD]
[TD] # retired on 1/28/06[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]11[/TD]
[TD]Kevin Dineen[/TD]
[TD]1984-1992; 1995-1999[/TD]
[TD] # honored in Hartford on 1/6/06, # in circulation in Carolina[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]17[/TD]
[TD]Rod Brind'Amour[/TD]
[TD]1999-2010[/TD]
[TD] # retired on 2/18/11[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]19[/TD]
[TD]John McKenzie[/TD]
[TD]1976-1979[/TD]
[TD] # retired in Hartford in 1979, # in circulation in Carolina[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]63[/TD]
[TD]Josef Vasicek[/TD]
[TD]2000-2007[/TD]
[TD] # unofficially retired after Vasicek's death[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]

I'll start by saying my opinion, which will probably surprise none, is that only the Canes retired #s should be in PNC and that it looks disingenuous (and rightfully so) when teams retire jerseys of players who didn't play for them, such as when the Coyotes retired Dale Hawerchuk's number. Given the circumstances of Chiasson's death, I'd leave his number out of circulation but I wouldn't formally retire it. Given Howe's contributions to hockey, I'd also honor him by leaving his number out of circulation, but not formally place it in the rafters of PNC since he never played as a Hurricane. I would add Vasicek and Dineen, however. Vasicek meant a lot to this franchise and the tragic circumstances of his death were beyond his control. Dineen played as a Hurricane and was our first captain, so I'm also alright with his number being enshrined in PNC's rafters.

 

[JCLA]

I think you pretty much said it perfectly.

While I don't have a problem with honoring the history to an extent. If you didn't play in the uniform, you shouldn't be in the rafters.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So here's the thing. I'm totally fine with retiring Whaler numbers and in particular it seems silly to have #9 out of circulation and not retire it.

What I'm NOT ok with is raising a red and black jersey with storm warning flags and a big "Howe 9" on it. That would look ridiculous and be plainly offensive to anyone with an inking about either team involved, or hockey history in general. It would make the Avs retiring Bourque look tasteful by comparison. We would never hear the end of how bad an idea it was, and rightfully so.

So I see there being three reasonable options for the Whaler numbers:

1) Retire them on an actual Whalers banner. My guess is this would not go over well in Hartford, but who am I to say.

2) Retire them on a banner that's not branded as either Canes or Whalers. Maybe just a white banner with black typeface. Nothing that appropriates the Whalers identity, but also nothing that denies it.

3) Just take the numbers out of circulation but don't put up banners.

In any case, maybe have a Whalers night where you invite former players and Hartford dignitaries to come celebrate along with Ley, Samuelsson, Mark and Marty Howe, Dineen, and McKenzie (eyeroll). Maybe promote it in a way that draws actual Whalers fans to the event, and take advantage of the occasion to host them nicely and mend some old wounds.

#2 would be my preferred.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

So here's the thing. I'm totally fine with retiring Whaler numbers and in particular it seems silly to have #9 out of circulation and not retire it.

What I'm NOT ok with is raising a red and black jersey with storm warning flags and a big "Howe 9" on it. That would look ridiculous and be plainly offensive to anyone with an inking about either team involved, or hockey history in general. It would make the Avs retiring Bourque look tasteful by comparison. We would never hear the end of how bad an idea it was, and rightfully so.

So I see there being three reasonable options for the Whaler numbers:

1) Retire them on an actual Whalers banner. My guess is this would not go over well in Hartford, but who am I to say.

2) Retire them on a banner that's not branded as either Canes or Whalers. Maybe just a white banner with black typeface. Nothing that appropriates the Whalers identity, but also nothing that denies it.

3) Just take the numbers out of circulation but don't put up banners.

In any case, maybe have a Whalers night where you invite former players and Hartford dignitaries to come celebrate along with Ley, Samuelsson, Mark and Marty Howe, Dineen, and McKenzie (eyeroll). Maybe promote it in a way that draws actual Whalers fans to the event, and take advantage of the occasion to host them nicely and mend some old wounds.

#2 would be my preferred.

So which Hartford numbers do you retire, THH? Based on your eyeroll, I'd assume you don't retire McKenzie's #19?

 

[DaveG]

I would leave #3, 9, and 63 as not available. But I have no problem with the arguments for retiring #63 whatsoever. #11 I likely wouldn't retire, but again, have no issue with anyone that has that opinion.

To me the best idea to honor some of the players that don't have their numbers retired would to be to make murals featuring their images on some of the columns lining the first level of PNC, but that's just me. A way of making a nod to the past in the arena but without the sheer awkwardness of having actual Hartford Whalers banners in the arena for a team that's in Raleigh.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So which Hartford numbers do you retire, THH? Based on your eyeroll, I'd assume you don't retire McKenzie's #19?

I mean, if you're bringing in all the old Whalers including the honored numbers like Dineen and Ulf, I don't think you snub the guy like that. If I'm running a hockey organization, politically it's an all-or-nothing choice to me. Either go with a full embrace, or just leave it alone.

(incidentally this is why I find the Howe decomissioning to be so awkward... why are we honoring him but not Dineen? Makes no sense)

If I'm retiring numbers on merit as a fan of the franchise, I'm taking #2, #5, #9, #10, #11, and #17. I don't like retiring numbers due to player deaths and McKenzie was just kind of a joke retirement TBH.

The easiest thing, of course, is to just go with #2, #10, #17 and let Hartford celebrate their own players which is probably what they really would prefer as a community.

 

[Joe McGrath]

To me it’s fine as is. I added Dineen because he was the first captain in Carolina as well so I could get behind it if necessary, but quite honestly by the time he’s done Jordan might have a similar resume.

1,000,000 % agree with THH on Howe. Just let that be.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I mean, if you're bringing in all the old Whalers including the honored numbers like Dineen and Ulf, I don't think you snub the guy like that. If I'm running a hockey organization, politically it's an all-or-nothing choice to me. Either go with a full embrace, or just leave it alone.

(incidentally this is why I find the Howe decomissioning to be so awkward... why are we honoring him but not Dineen? Makes no sense)

If I'm retiring numbers on merit as a fan of the franchise, I'm taking #2, #5, #9, #10, #11, and #17. I don't like retiring numbers due to player deaths and McKenzie was just kind of a joke retirement TBH.

The easiest thing, of course, is to just go with #2, #10, #17 and let Hartford celebrate their own players which is probably what they really would prefer as a community.

For me I think it depends on the impact of a player's on that team and the cause of his death. Maybe I overvalue Joe because of the Cup run, but given the esteem he was held in, seemingly, and that his death wasn't something he could have avoided, I can rationalize retiring his number. I'm not a huge fan of Pittsburgh having retired Michel Briere's #21, for instance.

Also not to call out @CandyCanes, for instance, but I'd be curious why he'd choose to retire Howe but not Brind'Amour, Wesley, or Francis.

 

[CandyCanes]

Also not to call out @CandyCanes, for instance, but I'd be curious why he'd choose to retire Howe but not Brind'Amour, Wesley, or Francis.

Because Brindy is a terrible coach, Francis is a terrible GM, and well Wesley was just very meh.

Jkjk. I had just woken up from a nap when responding to this poll, aka the same equivalent to me being extremely drunk. So I didn't have reading comprehension skills at that moment when reading.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don’t want the Whalers guys to be re retired in Raleigh. It’s not your history. I do like the team flipping pk’s position around and now acknowledging that the past existed. I don’t want anything carried away though.

In Colorado, the would sell Sakic, Forsberg and Foote Quebec jerseys in the team store. People bought and wore them. I would be fine if there were players that made the transition that they sold jerseys of but it’s not as clear for this team as it was for the Avs. Those guys stayed for years and won cups. Dineen and Francis maybe. Kron would be a nice one but don’t know if that makes sense. Kapanen. Maybe make blue ones for the ones that made the transition but maybe make Francis’s old green one the one available. He never wore the blue one anyways.

Other than that and selling some t shirts I don’t really want anything more done. The teams are linked but have separate stories. The jerseys raised are fine right where they are. It was a painful and bitter divorce, let’s not over step here. Good enough to be acknowledging.

 

[Stanky and Janky]

For me:

Leave Brindy, Wesley, and Francis retired.

Put Chiasson and Vasicek numbers back in circulation. Having those unofficially or officially retired because they died does nothing for me.

I would make some kind of Whalers themed numbers of honor banners for the other numbers, but not retire them, other than Howe if push comes to shove. I really wouldn't care if it was back in circulation either, but I'm okay with it being a retired number.

 

[My Special Purpose]

• The NHL should retire Howe's No. 9 the same way they did with Gretzky's No. 99.
• Even if they don't, we could always put No. 9 on an NHL banner in the rafters if we don't want to put Whalers colors up there.
• There was no reason for the Whalers to retire McKenzie's No. 19, let alone the Hurricanes.
• And Dineen's No. 11 should be retired here.

I wonder what RF thinks of this, if he and Dundon are on the same page. I'm sure he's got some very strong opinions having spent so much of his early life in Connecticut, marrying the best looking girl in the state and starting a family there. He's probably in a tough spot on this one, too. I, personally, would like to see Whalers colors up there, since this is the same franchise (unlike the current Winnipeg Jets celebrating anything accomplished by the previous incarnation). I also get that it's weird for Arizona to celebrate accomplishments by the old Winnipeg Jets, but at least it's organic.

The league is split on this, too.

Colorado completely ignores their time in Quebec. Players who played in both cities (Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Adam Foote) have their numbers retired on Avs banners with no mention of Quebec, and with their "years active" only including time in Colorado (i.e. Sakic's banner says 1995-2009 even though his career started in Quebec in 1988). Photo here.

Dallas, though, claims all their Minnesota North Stars history, including retiring the numbers of two players (Bill Goldsworthy and Bill Masterton) who never played in Dallas and one, Neal Broten, who only played one season. They even have a video of Goldsworthy's career/ceremony on the Stars website, which took place in Minnesota in 1992. For the three guys who predominantly played in Minnesota, they use the North Stars logo, and with Mike Modano, they use the Dallas Stars logo. Photo here.

And of course, the situation with the Jets/Coyotes is a mess. Bell MTS Place has a banner hanging for the 1978-79 Avco Cup championship, which was the last year of the WHA, along with former Jets-now-Coyotes player Dale Hawerchuk. Hard to find info of what's actually hanging in the rafters at Gila River Arena, but I think they claim the Jets history as well. Somebody should really step in and fix this.

 

[sabremike]

I think the solution that makes the most sense is to put up a single banner with the 3 numbers that were officially retired by the Whalers and the 3 that were retired ex post facto. They should also put Howard Baldwin's name on the banner as well (The fact that there is nothing honoring him at the Civic Center is a total disgrace). 9, 10 and 11 should be out of circulation because 9 is Gordie Freaking Howe and 10 (Ronnie) and 11 (Dineen) both wore those numbers for the Canes.

 

[cptjeff]

I'd hang up banners honoring the Whalers numbers, maybe with the emphasis on a picture of the player like the Leafs have done instead of the jersey number styled banners, but wouldn't take any of them out of circulation apart from #9. I'd be fine giving Gordie the full number retirement treatment. And while we're at it, Mark Howe is a HoFer, put him up with the other Whalers honored numbers if we do that. I don't think there's any harm in embracing the history if we don't bind ourselves to it.

As for #3 and #63, I'm okay with just keeping them out of circulation. #3 should have been taken out for a year or so, but not permanently- not really thrilled about giving such a big honor to a guy who was as extraordinarily reckless as Chiasson, but at this point, undoing that choice would seem like a specific insult, so let that dog lie. #63 is rare enough that yeah, just don't issue it.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I couldn't possibly give less of a shit about this team's legacy. I'll maybe give a shit once they've solved the team's present.