Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Penguins 5, Lightning 3

[wgknestrick]

I thought the 3rd line with DJ, BB, and TK was playing very well all night. They dominated possession and generated a couple of quality chances. TK had some give aways in the O-zone, but I don't see how he earned a minus tonight from you guys. If DJ is a healthy scratch again, DB should be fired.

Sutter's line was also dominant. It's nice that the Pens have 2 very good shutdown lines (2nd and 3rd) now that can control possession against other team's top 2 lines.

Letang and the 4th line (minus Vitale) would've been the only minuses tonight IMO. I would love to see what Vitale could do with decent 4th line wingers.

 

[Glamor Toad]

There's only one reason in the world right now that Engo can appear to be struggling, which he does appear to do, and it's because of the following: one game he is being paired up in his natural position on the right side, but with a rookie in Despres who does not play a simple game. The other half of the time, Engo is playing his off-side, but with a more steady Bortuzzo. So Engo is in flux right now of being either in a new position with a new partner, or simply being with an inexperienced, rookie partner who is still prone to mistakes and over-complicating things with his play.

I'm not sure how much credence I give the "Engo is in flux because 1)he is playing his offside or 2)he is playing with a dynamic D partner who isn't consistent" argument.
Maybe this is just in my personal experience, but I have never had an issue switching from right D to left D. I have known a few guys that preferred it, but it was always because of the position that it puts your shot, not because of defensive positioning.
I just think that the guy is in a slump. We know both Despres and Engelland can (and must) play better. If we don't see them step it up by April, we are going to need a vet #5 physical, crease-clearing defensement to compliment Bort

 

[ColePens]

I agree with this being an issue. I also heard someone mention that the Pens, especially the high end talent guys, try to protect a lead by adding more to it, instead of thinking Defense first. Maybe this is why DB is trying to use the 3rd and 4th lines a little more. Maybe he feels that guys like Adams and Vitale don't have the top end skill to always be thinking about scoring and thus are more willing to think defense first?

Once again, if we were just consistently getting outplayed from the drop of the puck, I'd say that is more on coaching. However, we are not getting outplayed a lot. We've scored first a lot this year, and we have built 2-3 goal leads. That usually means that the plan is working. I honestly think that when we build quick leads that the team starts just get hungry for more and wants to win by 10, instead of gearing down and holding on to 2.

That being said. I would like to see a little more mixing it up on the break out. Getting the forwards down a little lower more often, and then mixing in the stretch. I still however think that no matter who is coaching, players make decisions on the ice in every system, and bad decisions by a player make any coach's system look bad.

I think you nailed it on the breakout. That type of support can lead to good defensive structure, too. If a defensive player flubs on the puck, our support system is right there.

But it's also on the players to compete at a high level THE ENTIRE GAME. Why they don't do it is beyond me. And what sucks is you can't fire every player. You need to get through to them so they respond. So that's why it falls on the coach over and over again.

 

[Richard]

Yah it's a tough concept to accept because he's been a pillar of the D for so long (we assume "he has to be in the mix"). But truthfully if you take away the "he's the only guy who can hit someone into next week" stuff and look at his contributions (including to recent GA), he's not a strength for our D right now. Unquestionably you have to consider whether his replacement has the playoff experience, but Orpik is not the guy he used to be out there IMO. With all our young D coming up... if we could get a solid rental with playoff experience to step in for Orpik this year, giving Bortuzzo the experience he needs this year and next without being "the man"... maybe he can work his way onto that top pairing by next playoff.

Might be better to trade him now when teams can expect to have him under contract for another season, then to let him go to FA looking for his final "big contract". Someone would definitely be willing to give him a raise out there and I don't want us to do that given the other priority signings we have to make next year.

I would move Orpik now with his contract situation and how his play seemingly hasn't lessoned in the eyes of some teams. I agree with everything you say. In fact, I'd say Bortuzzo right now, is a more fundamentally sound defensive player than Orpik ever was.

I'd look to move Orpik to Calgary; see if you could get a guy like Glencross.

 

[dr robbie]

Not only do I hate this argument (the coach shouldn't worry about padding his players' stats, only winning), but you're flat out wrong. Crosby, Neal, and Kunitz were on the ice for the last shift of the game when Tampa had their goalie pulled. Neal even tried to get the puck to Crosby for the empty-netter but he couldn't connect.

That was only for the last 14ish seconds of the game. The first 1+ minute that the goalie was pulled, I believe we had the Sutter line (I could be wrong about the line, but I know Sid wasn't out there).

However, I do agree. It's not about padding stats - it's about winning the game. My wife was watching the game though and she's never seen a hat trick before, so I was hoping she could see one from him. She settled for MAF's goal attempt though (I asked her who she wanted to score a goal and she said Fleury not knowing how improbable that was )

 

[Glamor Toad]

I'm just curious why people feel that our system, especially defensively, is bad? Why do people always insist that every goal that the other team scores is due to the opposing coach making these great adjustments, and "out coaching" DB?

This is exactly why I want to start an honest (not emotional-venting) thread about the systems that are in place and the systems that we think SHOULD be in place. I think that there are too many turnovers (execution) that lead to some of the goals tonight. These are because our center and strong-side D are in the corner fighting the cycle while the weak-side D is burnt with two men in the slot. This is the most common way to score goals, and is a matter of awareness, discipline and footspeed. Two of those three things need to be instilled. One is execution.

That's just my experience talking. What do you think?

 

[Random Oracle]

That was only for the last 14ish seconds of the game. The first 1+ minute that the goalie was pulled, I believe we had the Sutter line (I could be wrong about the line, but I know Sid wasn't out there).

Crosby was on the ice after the 5-3 goal with 51 seconds remaining. First with Adams and Glass, then with Kunitz and Neal with 33 seconds remaining.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't even see people complaining about the system. That's just a typical "i'm right!" argument from probably weeks ago.

Or he's thinking people posting about our blown leads (and blaming it on Bylsma) as a schematic issue? I have no clue. But while on topic, I definitely hate blaming a coach when it's the players continuing to blow leads, but it's become the norm. Unfortunately when something happens like that, you can't fire every player and have to put the blame on the coaching staff for not fixing it. 5 times in the last year we've lost 2 goal leads to Philly. How many blown leads have we seen this year, too? It's just a huge issue. No other way to put it.

In fact, a blown 3 goal lead probably made the difference in that Pens/Flyers series. I'd be interested to see what happens if we don't blow that lead.

Once or twice - I say "oh well, it happens in the NHL." How many times we've done it becomes an issue.

I can't give overall specific numbers, but I know the Pens have blown 5 two goal leads to Philly in the last season+.

There were guys pinching, bad line changes, and overall bad decisions last night when they were protecting the lead. An example that I shook my head at, is with a two goal lead in the third, Letang had the puck just inside the middle of the TB blueline and tried to gun a shot on net. He had the high man literally three feet away in the shooting lane and of course it was blocked and setup an odd man 3-2 rush the other way.

Letang has to know the situation there and that a blocked shot could lead to a quick counter. Just play it off the boards and make the smart play. It's easy to criticize when it isn't me out there, obviously, but honestly that is hockey 101 there. I just expect better decisions from Letang in a situation like that.

Last night is on the players I feel, but again we are still seeing poor decision making and it's the reason I am withholding judgement until I see what the playoffs bring.

As for +/-

- I'm giving DB props for giving BB PP time after he drew that penalty.

- Despres had a rough game, but Engo was a bigger problem. Engo has only had a handful of games this season where he looked good and I'm a little concerned.

- Orpik is getting a bad rap. This cat draws the toughest assignments every game and made a number of big plays last night no one gave him credit for.

- I'm still waiting to see what the big deal is about Glass. I would rather be locked in a room for three hours and be forced to watch Jersey Shore, than having to watch Glass and Adams handle the puck. Vitale must spend all game mumbling to himself...

Glass is decent on the PK, but his work at both ends isn't impressing me. I'm trying to give it time, but the honest truth is the fourth line is quite avg without Vitale's speed and hustle.

 

[Tender Rip]

That being said. I would like to see a little more mixing it up on the break out. Getting the forwards down a little lower more often, and then mixing in the stretch. I still however think that no matter who is coaching, players make decisions on the ice in every system, and bad decisions by a player make any coach's system look bad.

But isn't that exactly what many of us who complain about the stretch pass being used almost religiously in quite a few games say and have been saying for a looooooong time?
The problem is not the stretch pass as a supreme evil. It is but one form of outletting the puck. It is often effective and just as often necessary. But if it is done over and over even when it is clear that the opponent is all over it (don't think that was the case in this one, nor that we were being that religious about the stretch pass), then as a coach you must adjust or at least compel your players to. Very often we do not see that, and particularly Malkin's line just hasn't been executing when our reliance on the stretch pass has been heavy, which is something the coach MUST be able to see also.

To be honest I don't even think we disagree much on any of these things. To me it seems more like disagreeing on the extent to which criticism is acceptable after wins .

 

[ColePens]

By the by... did I see that Joey V was 8-1 in the dot?

 

[cheesedanish87]

Did Bylsma really say he wants his FOURTH line against Tampa's top? Did he see how the fourth line did against Giroux and the Flyers?

I think DB is a hell of a hockey coach, but his stubbornness is hilarious. What hockey coach at ANY level would say this?

Yes and he said were gonna keep on seeing our 4th lines vs other teams 1st line. Listen to DB post game comments

 

[JQR]

By the by... did I see that Joey V was 8-1 in the dot?

Between Vitale, Sutter, and Crosby, the Pens have to be the most solid team in the league in terms of faceoff wins.

 

[ColePens]

Jiggy - the one thing I'll give Glass is he does add toughness to the roster. He has A LOT of hits this season. That's not the worst thing ever.

 

[ColePens]

Yes and he said were gonna keep on seeing our 4th lines vs other teams 1st line. Listen to DB post game comments

You don't want me doing that. I'll just complain more and more. Nobody wants an internet whiner.

 

[Random Oracle]

Between Vitale, Sutter, and Crosby, the Pens have to be the most solid team in the league in terms of faceoff wins.

The Pens are tied for third in the league in faceoff win percentage with 52.9%, behind only Boston and Detroit.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

I don't even see people complaining about the system. That's just a typical "i'm right!" argument from probably weeks ago.

Or he's thinking people posting about our blown leads (and blaming it on Bylsma) as a schematic issue? I have no clue. But while on topic, I definitely hate blaming a coach when it's the players continuing to blow leads, but it's become the norm. Unfortunately when something happens like that, you can't fire every player and have to put the blame on the coaching staff for not fixing it. 5 times in the last year we've lost 2 goal leads to Philly. How many blown leads have we seen this year, too? It's just a huge issue. No other way to put it.

In fact, a blown 3 goal lead probably made the difference in that Pens/Flyers series. I'd be interested to see what happens if we don't blow that lead.

Once or twice - I say "oh well, it happens in the NHL." How many times we've done it becomes an issue.

As soon as we blew that 3 goal lead against philly i thought of universal truths in hockey. one of which would be....if you have a 3 goal lead in a playoff series and blow it, you threw away a win. Tough to overcome. You need to make it easy on yourself and win with leads.

On the topic of coaches...i blame them only when:
- they fail to make adjustments or match opponent adjustments. Geno vs. Coult being an example. Sitting back in a shell with the lead too early in games being another.

But many times it is just execution. One credit to DB is that the pens are usually well prepared to play. We rarely come out horribly flat, or look lost in the 1st.

I personally think this team doesn't need to learn to win 2-0 or 3-0. We need to learn to win 6-2. It seems our biggest troubles are when we get up early and then overcompensate on playing "safe" "shutdown" hockey. We tend to lose momentum quickly when we try to set up a passive forecheck. This team might just be better suited to pour it on all game. I would prefer we get up by a few, then balance the shifts and roll 4 lines. Really get to our game of wearing teams down, and focus on out battling teams for 6 minutes. If we keep it a talent game we fair better then a system game.

 

[JQR]

The Pens are tied for third in the league in faceoff win percentage with 52.9%, behind only Boston and Detroit.

Nice, just saw that. It's a 3 way tie for FO%, but Pens have played more games than the other 2 teams, so I assume more faceoffs. Not too far behind Detroit either, but Boston has a pretty big jump after that.

 

[The Old Master]

I'm not sure how much credence I give the "Engo is in flux because 1)he is playing his offside or 2)he is playing with a dynamic D partner who isn't consistent" argument.
Maybe this is just in my personal experience, but I have never had an issue switching from right D to left D. I have known a few guys that preferred it, but it was always because of the position that it puts your shot, not because of defensive positioning.

i,ve always liked it because my natural sweep check would knock the puck to the wall instead of center ice.....could be just me. imo

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

Letang has to know the situation there and that a blocked shot could lead to a quick counter. Just play it off the boards and make the smart play. It's easy to criticize when it isn't me out there, obviously, but honestly that is hockey 101 there. I just expect better decisions from Letang in a situation like that.

Last night is on the players I feel, but again we are still seeing poor decision making and it's the reason I am withholding judgement until I see what the playoffs bring.

That is fair. We do need to make better decisions particularly on the rush. With a lead we should look to set up the cycle more (vs. pond hockey rushes and cross ice passes)

As for +/-

- Orpik is getting a bad rap. This cat draws the toughest assignments every game and made a number of big plays last night no one gave him credit for.

This is important to note. I think the areas where Orpik struggles, we have 3-4 guys who excel. If Brooks was gone, we would be missing top match-up toughness in a equally noticeable way.

- I'm still waiting to see what the big deal is about Glass. I would rather be locked in a room for three hours and be forced to watch Jersey Shore, than having to watch Glass and Adams handle the puck. Vitale must spend all game mumbling to himself...

Glass is decent on the PK, but his work at both ends isn't impressing me. I'm trying to give it time, but the honest truth is the fourth line is quite avg without Vitale's speed and hustle.
Adams or Glass, both seems like redundancy on a roster. Not a knock on the effort, hustle, etc. of either guy.

attempted to embed comments....this electronics thing is hard.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

This is exactly why I want to start an honest (not emotional-venting) thread about the systems that are in place and the systems that we think SHOULD be in place. I think that there are too many turnovers (execution) that lead to some of the goals tonight. These are because our center and strong-side D are in the corner fighting the cycle while the weak-side D is burnt with two men in the slot. This is the most common way to score goals, and is a matter of awareness, discipline and footspeed. Two of those three things need to be instilled. One is execution.

That's just my experience talking. What do you think?

I think this is a pretty good summary. This scenario you talk about with the Strong D and Center in the corner, the responsibility of the weak side wing is to get to the hash marks and help out in front. If the weak side wing is lazy, the D in front is put in a bad spot.

I think discipline, as you mentioned, is one of the issues. I think that the weak side winger has a tendency, especially when we have a lead, to fly the zone a little early, before we have complete possession. Once again, I think this falls more on the player being responsible than the system.

Here is the hard part about the discussion. It is a very fine line that a coach walks with having to be tough with players, while at the same time not having them turn on the coach. As history has shown us, the hard @$$ disciplinary types don't last too long around here. Bowman, and Therrien are examples. You have to get the players to understand, without them turning on the coach. I think this is where DB does a pretty good job most of the time. The players like Sid and Geno really like him, which is a good sign. I feel that Sid being the Captain, should take the next step in being a little more vocal and preach discipline. Sid can play a little roll of the bad cop at times if he doesn't feel someone is pulling their weight.

 

[Shady Machine]

I agree with this being an issue. I also heard someone mention that the Pens, especially the high end talent guys, try to protect a lead by adding more to it, instead of thinking Defense first. Maybe this is why DB is trying to use the 3rd and 4th lines a little more. Maybe he feels that guys like Adams and Vitale don't have the top end skill to always be thinking about scoring and thus are more willing to think defense first?

Once again, if we were just consistently getting outplayed from the drop of the puck, I'd say that is more on coaching. However, we are not getting outplayed a lot. We've scored first a lot this year, and we have built 2-3 goal leads. That usually means that the plan is working. I honestly think that when we build quick leads that the team starts just get hungry for more and wants to win by 10, instead of gearing down and holding on to 2.

That being said. I would like to see a little more mixing it up on the break out. Getting the forwards down a little lower more often, and then mixing in the stretch. I still however think that no matter who is coaching, players make decisions on the ice in every system, and bad decisions by a player make any coach's system look bad.

I'm not sure I agree with your assessment here. It doesn't look to me like they "get too hungry for more", it looks like they think they have the game wrapped up and would rather coast. Something happens with this team when they go into the locker room after the 1st when up by a few goals. It's like they think the game is over and they come out flat in the second and sit back. That is on the players, but like Cole said, when it happens this consistently, it's a coaching issue as well.

Agreed on the breakout and all most of us have been asking for is some variety. We don't always need to stretch it out and go, go, go.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Jiggy - the one thing I'll give Glass is he does add toughness to the roster. He has A LOT of hits this season. That's not the worst thing ever.

Ya I keep telling myself that, but then I see his work, especially on the cycle, and shake my head.

This isn't a pimp Vitale agenda, but when you take him off that line, Adams and Glass look scary slow and avg on the cycle. What if Vitale gets hurt, promoted, etc?

Now DB is talking about using them as a shutdown line. Did he get a concussion or was it Malkin? Adams and Glass will be pissed all over by lines that can skate. I still have nightmares about how badly Adams was able to handle Toronto's speed last season.

Adams and Glass are what they are.... Physical players with decent straight ahead speed, but their change of direction/lack of speed limits their ability to defend agt talented players.

They are offensively Pejorative Slured and without Vitale their ability to sustain a cycle is avg at best. I think one of Adams/Glass with Vitale and another physical, hustling player who can skate would make a big difference in the capabilities of that line.

 

[JQR]

Jiggy - the one thing I'll give Glass is he does add toughness to the roster. He has A LOT of hits this season. That's not the worst thing ever.

Yup. He leads the team in hits, and gets, what 10-12 minutes per game? Kunitz is second in hits and gets 80-100% more ice time on average. And they are clean hits. He has 28 PIM so far, but 20 of those are for fighting.

 

[JTG]

I can see Bennett scoring a **** ton of goals from where he scored last night.

 

[Rectify]

Why Vitale ever gets scratched is beyond me, his game is so perfect for the type of player he is.