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Playoff All-Star Teams

eva unit zero said:
He played them together more at home than on the road, but they spent more time apart than together.



I know you disagree. But Franzen had a better PPG, and consistently came up clutch. Datsyuk played well, but as I have said before he was behind Zetterberg, Osgood, Lidstrom, and Franzen in importance to the Wings in that run.



1) Osgood was even better in 2009 than he was in 2008; that's not really debatable.
2) A Cup winning team will have players playing well. That's why they win the Cup. That said, even with all of that strong help, Osgood was still the second-most important player on the team. If he had started from game 1 of round 1, he might even be in Smythe talk.



Datsyuk in 2011 and Zetterberg this year both finished 14th; and both have a ridiculously strong argument to be included. The thing is... Zetterberg played Toews directly, and we see this:

Toews vs Detroit: 4 points in 7 games (0.57 PPG)
Toews vs Minny/LA/Boston: 10 points in 16 games (0.63 PPG)

So compared to being matched up against the league's best defenseman, or against a couple other top defensive forwards who have high-quality defenses backing them, Zetterberg actually shut Toews down more. You can't watch the Detroit/Chicago series and legitimately say that Toews is even close to Zetterberg.
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Franzen had the huge overtime goal in game 5 against Nashville and the historically good 4 game series against Colorado. Even if Franzen was not on the team, Detroit would have rolled over Colorado. He barely played in the Conference Finals and wasn't a very big factor in the Finals as he wasn't 100%.

Osgood had better numbers all across in the 2008 postseason. He was really good again in 2009, but that was only magnified because of how bad he was in the regular season that year.

Combining Toews' stats for rounds 1, 3, and 4 is flawed considering he scored 5 pts in his final 3 games against Boston.

Toews v Minnesota: 0.4 p/g
Toews v Detroit: 0.57 p/g
Toews v LA: 0.6 p/g
Toews v Boston: 0.71 p/g

Really not much there to be honest.
 
eva unit zero said:
Toews vs Detroit: 4 points in 7 games (0.57 PPG)
Toews vs Minny/LA/Boston: 10 points in 16 games (0.63 PPG)

So compared to being matched up against the league's best defenseman, or against a couple other top defensive forwards who have high-quality defenses backing them, Zetterberg actually shut Toews down more. You can't watch the Detroit/Chicago series and legitimately say that Toews is even close to Zetterberg.
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I think we should look at how Zetterberg did against LA and Boston as compared to Toews...

There`s no argument to be had here. You lose in the 2nd round, you weren`t one of the top two centermen in the playoffs. Zetterberg outplayed Toews at even strength head to head. Fortunately for Toews he at least got his offense going on the PP in the latter portion of the series to offset it. Michal Handzus stepped up and outplayed Datsyuk to balance the equation at center ice. All told, Quenneville will gladly take a saw-off at the top 2 center positions since his roster was much stronger everywhere else. Valiant effort from Zetterberg, but at the end of the day the man accepting the Stanley Cup had the better playoff run. All four rounds need to be examined, and Zetterberg scored pretty poorly in the two he didn't participate in.
 
Hawkey Town 18 said:
Just to be clear, in this exercise the specific LW/C/RW positions do not matter, we're just looking for 3 forwards.
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In that case I go with Krejci in top spot. Choosing two of Lucic, Bickell, and Sharp for the last two positions is a very close call. They all scored huge goals and played very solid all around games for their teams for four rounds. I honestly cannot decide, it`s that close.
 
Kyle McMahon said:
I think we should look at how Zetterberg did against LA and Boston as compared to Toews...

There`s no argument to be had here. You lose in the 2nd round, you weren`t one of the top two centermen in the playoffs. Zetterberg outplayed Toews at even strength head to head. Fortunately for Toews he at least got his offense going on the PP in the latter portion of the series to offset it. Michal Handzus stepped up and outplayed Datsyuk to balance the equation at center ice. All told, Quenneville will gladly take a saw-off at the top 2 center positions since his roster was much stronger everywhere else. Valiant effort from Zetterberg, but at the end of the day the man accepting the Stanley Cup had the better playoff run. All four rounds need to be examined, and Zetterberg scored pretty poorly in the two he didn't participate in.
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Again, 12 points in 14 games compared to 14 points in 23. Zetterberg had 8 points in 7 games against Anaheim; If you put together any two rounds from Toews, his best is 8 in 13 (LA/BOS). Patrick Kane scored five points against Minnesota, LA, and Boston, but only four against Detroit. Sharp blew his wad early, with 6 points against Minnesota, 4 each against Detroit and LA, and 2 against Boston. Hossa was similar to Sharp, going 6-5-3-2.

You can make the games played argument and say that a guy from the second round "isn't eligible". But that really de-legitimizes the idea of this exercise. And it's painfully obvious that Zetterberg outplayed Toews in the playoffs head-to-head and as a whole last year, despite his team not advancing as far.
 
silkyjohnson50 said:
Franzen had the huge overtime goal in game 5 against Nashville and the historically good 4 game series against Colorado. Even if Franzen was not on the team, Detroit would have rolled over Colorado. He barely played in the Conference Finals and wasn't a very big factor in the Finals as he wasn't 100%.
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I'm not going to sit here and have a discussion with you, again, about Datsyuk not being the absolute most important player after Zetterberg on that 2008 team the way you seem to believe he was. It's simply not the way it went down.

Osgood had better numbers all across in the 2008 postseason. He was really good again in 2009, but that was only magnified because of how bad he was in the regular season that year.
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I suggest you set yourself up with some game tapes. Because as good as Osgood was in 2008, he was a step above that in 2009.
 
A forward who loses in the second round and finishes in a 5-way tie for 18th in overall playoff scoring (with two players who also lost in the second round among others) is not a playoff all-star. Period. No matter how much he plays for your favorite team.

I don't think Toews should be a playoff all-star either - I think that's giving the captain of the Cup winner too much credit. If you want to go with a two-way player from Chicago, I think Hossa would be a better choice.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
A forward who loses in the second round and finishes in a 5-way tie for 18th in overall playoff scoring (with two players who also lost in the second round among others) is not a playoff all-star. Period. No matter how much he plays for your favorite team.
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Scoring ranks are not determined by the lowest-ranked player with a certain number of points. It is a five-way tie for 14th, not 18th.

You're better than that kind of misleading information.
 
It seems like the inclusion of Chara is more on account of there not being anyone else of high profile. I don't think Chara played that well this playoffs, and I'd lean to someone like Voynov over him.
 
eva unit zero said:
Again, 12 points in 14 games compared to 14 points in 23. Zetterberg had 8 points in 7 games against Anaheim; If you put together any two rounds from Toews, his best is 8 in 13 (LA/BOS). Patrick Kane scored five points against Minnesota, LA, and Boston, but only four against Detroit. Sharp blew his wad early, with 6 points against Minnesota, 4 each against Detroit and LA, and 2 against Boston. Hossa was similar to Sharp, going 6-5-3-2.

You can make the games played argument and say that a guy from the second round "isn't eligible". But that really de-legitimizes the idea of this exercise. And it's painfully obvious that Zetterberg outplayed Toews in the playoffs head-to-head and as a whole last year, despite his team not advancing as far.
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The predictable personal stat breakdown. I suppose if Toews provided zero value beyond point production, you might have a case. Was Doug Weight the top forward of the 2003 playoffs?
 
GuineaPig said:
It seems like the inclusion of Chara is more on account of there not being anyone else of high profile. I don't think Chara played that well this playoffs, and I'd lean to someone like Voynov over him.
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I think Chara was spectacular through three rounds of the playoffs. At one point, he was one of the leading scorers on Boston, while playing excellent D, then against Pittsburgh, he was one of the key players in shutting down Crosby and Malkin. Really underwhelming finals, but I still think he was the second best defenseman of the playoffs.
 
Kyle McMahon said:
The predictable personal stat breakdown. I suppose if Toews provided zero value beyond point production, you might have a case. Was Doug Weight the top forward of the 2003 playoffs?
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Yes, because Toews provided sooooo much more than Zetterberg outside of scoring.

Toews has exactly one game in his career (regular season or playoffs) where he has taken three unrelated penalties. His meltdown in Game 4 was arguably one of the biggest reasons his team went down 3-1 in that series rather than tying it 2-2. Care to take a guess WHY that happened?

Hint: It has to do with a certain opposing player who was frustrating the hell out of him.
 
eva unit zero said:
Yes, because Toews provided sooooo much more than Zetterberg outside of scoring.
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He sure did in the 3rd and 4th rounds, those two rounds that Zetterberg didn't participate in.

Again I'll ask: Was Doug Weight the best center of the 2003 playoffs?
 
Haven't read the thread, but this is 2013's for me:

G: Tuukka Rask, Bos
D: Duncan Keith, Chi
D: Zdeno Chara, Bos
LW: Patrick Sharp, Chi
C: David Krejci, Bos
RW: Patrick Kane, Chi
 
Kyle McMahon said:
He sure did in the 3rd and 4th rounds, those two rounds that Zetterberg didn't participate in.

Again I'll ask: Was Doug Weight the best center of the 2003 playoffs?
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Let's review:

Jonathan Toews is a talented offensive center who brings an elite defensive game, leadership, and other advantages.

The same description fits Henrik Zetterberg.

Zetterberg scored two fewer points in nine fewer games, while playing better defensively and not having meltdowns that cost his team games. It's pretty easy to say Zetterberg was the better player.

Weight in 2003 was an almost exclusively offensive player who scored 12 points in 7 games; Mike Modano was a high-end two-way center who scored 15 in 12 games. So while Modano only scored 3 in the extra 5 game he played, he also brings a very significant defensive advantage. Furthermore, Weight outscored Joe Sakic by four points in seven games each, but Sakic also has the significant defensive advantage. So Weight is perhaps #3. Toews doesn't have that defensive advantage over Zetterberg, and obviously was outplayed offensively.
 
Dennis Bonvie said:
But Bruins don't get out of the first round without Lucic's heroics in Game 7.

And virtually every defenseman in every series was looking over their shoulder to find Lucic before they made a hasty play.
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sure every player has specific highs and lows in the playoffs and if Lucic's 2-1 goal stood up it would help his case even more.

that's probably why I favor a larger format of 12 forwards and 6 Dmen, sometimes too much emphasis is placed on single moments and not overall consistent play.
 
eva unit zero said:
Let's review:

Jonathan Toews is a talented offensive center who brings an elite defensive game, leadership, and other advantages.

The same description fits Henrik Zetterberg.

Zetterberg scored two fewer points in nine fewer games, while playing better defensively and not having meltdowns that cost his team games. It's pretty easy to say Zetterberg was the better player.
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Playing better defensively eh?

Here's Zet's and Toews breakdowns for games 5, 6 and 7...

Game #5)
Zet toi-16:41 sh-0:10 G-0 A-1 +/- even DETPP- 0/4
Toews toi-20:30 sh-2:17 G-1 A-0 +/- even CHIPP- 2/3

Game #6)
Zet toi-20:01 sh-0:18 G-0 A-0 +/- -1 DETPP- 0/3
Toews toi-20:00 sh-1:00 G-0 A-2 +/- even CHIPP- 1/5

Game #5)
Zet toi-20:49 sh-2:01 G-1 A-0 +/- -1 DETPP- 0/2
Toews toi-20:52 sh-1:02 G-0 A-0 +/- -1 CHIPP- 0/4

Should also be noted that Zetterberg was on the ice for BOTH goals against in game #7.

Faceoff % was even, both went about 50% for the series, however, Toews averaged a whopping 6 more draws per game, 50/99 vs 72/144.
 
Rhiessan71 said:
Playing better defensively eh?

Here's Zet's and Toews breakdowns for games 5, 6 and 7...

Game #5)
Zet toi-16:41 sh-0:10 G-0 A-1 +/- even DETPP- 0/4
Toews toi-20:30 sh-2:17 G-1 A-0 +/- even CHIPP- 2/3

Game #6)
Zet toi-20:01 sh-0:18 G-0 A-0 +/- -1 DETPP- 0/3
Toews toi-20:00 sh-1:00 G-0 A-2 +/- even CHIPP- 1/5

Game #5)
Zet toi-20:49 sh-2:01 G-1 A-0 +/- -1 DETPP- 0/2
Toews toi-20:52 sh-1:02 G-0 A-0 +/- -1 CHIPP- 0/4

Should also be noted that Zetterberg was on the ice for BOTH goals against in game #7.
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It should also be noted he had just come off of the bench and was about ten or fifteen feet away from the bench when the puck went in the net on the first goal. On the second goal, there was literally no possible way for him to do anything. Ericsson dumped the puck to Nyquist on the boards; Nyquist had just gathered it and was starting to turn away from the boards when Bolland crushed him. When Nyquist received the puck, Zetterberg (who was just on the Wings' side of center ice, headed towards Howard) began to turn up-ice. He turned back when Nyquist was hit but had no chance of affecting the play at all at that point because he was on the other side of the rink.

And it should also be noted (again) that Toews' only ES point in the series came on a play that was offsides. I feel that is an important point to make. :)
 
Eva, Eva, Eva - why must this always happen?

You have to stop - I'm beginning to think this is some supergenius scheme to make everyone hate the Red Wings.

For what it's worth - Zetterberg was far better than Toews in the games he played in. I expect no less, as I feel that he is a superior playoff player.

BUT IT JUST DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

Should we go back and find every player that had a great 7 games and out since the beginning of time, and claim they were the story of the playoffs?

Hell, anytime Gretzky or Lemieux's teams bombed out in the first 2 rounds, but they put up 2 points a game we could just vote them onto the playoff allstar team. We know they were the most capable players those years, but their team was out, and so then is their existence in this equation. What you are capable of does not earn you a spot on a list of what you got done.

Most people had probably forgotten or never noticed Zetts this year. I did, Eva. He is one of the most determined players I have ever seen, and his skills are not too far behind his heart. He could have been a POTENTIAL Conn Smythe guy if we had got by Chicago, and I would have given it to him in 2009, had we won. He is a PLAYOFF GOD for those who pay attention.... but you can't give this to him when he only played half the games, and his team was buried a month ago.
 
eva unit zero said:
Let's review:

Jonathan Toews is a talented offensive center who brings an elite defensive game, leadership, and other advantages.

The same description fits Henrik Zetterberg.

Zetterberg scored two fewer points in nine fewer games, while playing better defensively and not having meltdowns that cost his team games. It's pretty easy to say Zetterberg was the better player.

Weight in 2003 was an almost exclusively offensive player who scored 12 points in 7 games; Mike Modano was a high-end two-way center who scored 15 in 12 games. So while Modano only scored 3 in the extra 5 game he played, he also brings a very significant defensive advantage. Furthermore, Weight outscored Joe Sakic by four points in seven games each, but Sakic also has the significant defensive advantage. So Weight is perhaps #3. Toews doesn't have that defensive advantage over Zetterberg, and obviously was outplayed offensively.
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So a player playing fewer playoff rounds is now considered a positive?

How many guys that play 40 regular season games get onto the AST? None. So why change up the rules for the playoffs? Oh yeah, to fill the team with Red Wings even in years they got nowhere near the final. Lets be consistent...Peter Forsberg, welcome to the 1998 AST. Sorry Fedorov. We'll have to put Scott Mellanby on over Brendan Shanahan in 2002 as well. Shanny only had one more goal in 13 more games!
 
eva unit zero said:
You can make the games played argument and say that a guy from the second round "isn't eligible". But that really de-legitimizes the idea of this exercise. And it's painfully obvious that Zetterberg outplayed Toews in the playoffs head-to-head and as a whole last year, despite his team not advancing as far.
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It's painfully obvious that Detroit lost to Chicago. Toews was the better player in these playoffs. Get over it.
 
tombombadil said:
Eva, Eva, Eva - why must this always happen?

You have to stop - I'm beginning to think this is some supergenius scheme to make everyone hate the Red Wings.

For what it's worth - Zetterberg was far better than Toews in the games he played in. I expect no less, as I feel that he is a superior playoff player.

BUT IT JUST DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

Should we go back and find every player that had a great 7 games and out since the beginning of time, and claim they were the story of the playoffs?

Hell, anytime Gretzky or Lemieux's teams bombed out in the first 2 rounds, but they put up 2 points a game we could just vote them onto the playoff allstar team. We know they were the most capable players those years, but their team was out, and so then is their existence in this equation. What you are capable of does not earn you a spot on a list of what you got done.

Most people had probably forgotten or never noticed Zetts this year. I did, Eva. He is one of the most determined players I have ever seen, and his skills are not too far behind his heart. He could have been a POTENTIAL Conn Smythe guy if we had got by Chicago, and I would have given it to him in 2009, had we won. He is a PLAYOFF GOD for those who pay attention.... but you can't give this to him when he only played half the games, and his team was buried a month ago.
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I said before that if you are putting down a games requirement, then I can see not putting Z on the team. But if we're simply taking the best players from the playoffs, Z belongs on the team.

Sentinel said:
It's painfully obvious that Detroit lost to Chicago. Toews was the better player in these playoffs. Get over it.
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That's like saying that Brodeur outplayed Giguere in 2003, or Fuhr outplayed Hextall in 1987. Detroit losing to Chicago doesn't make the Toews better player, it means Chicago was the better team overall - when you factor in things like puck luck, getting the better side of calls/non-calls at the right times, etc.

Who was better, Crawford or Rask? Crawford or Howard? Crawford or Quick?

How about Krejci or Toews? Bergeron or Handzus? Chara or Keith?

Go ahead Sentinel. Tell me that a player was better than his counterpart because his team won. Just a warning; if you actually say that and believe it you officially lose all credibility.
 
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