Playmaking Wingers
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vadim sharifijanov
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i made a thread about this a million years ago, i think during the wingers project?
during the O6, lots of wingers led the league in assists: howe, lindsay, bert olmstead, dickie moore, and andy bathgate. but bobby rousseau was the last one for a long while.
post-gretzky, there was jagr and MSL, and a one-off year with recchi. but last year with both giroux and wheeler still felt unprecedented.
during the O6, lots of wingers led the league in assists: howe, lindsay, bert olmstead, dickie moore, and andy bathgate. but bobby rousseau was the last one for a long while.
post-gretzky, there was jagr and MSL, and a one-off year with recchi. but last year with both giroux and wheeler still felt unprecedented.
That’s very interesting.
So I have a few hypotheses on why the change could have happened...
1. Wingers were simply more talented in the O6 since there were fewer center spots available more talented players got shifted to the wing upon reaching the NHL. The flip side of this is would be that currently due to the relative lack of expansion until last season there have been more guys who played center coming up getting switched to the wing.
2. Bobby Orr. Orr changed the role off defensemen when it came to carrying the puck and as more defensemen carried the puck more frequently wingers started carrying it less. The flip side would be that defensemen today are carrying the puck less, I don’t feel like this really makes sense, but could probably be looked into statistically.
3. The power play. Has there been a switch in common power play practice back to systems more similar to the O6? I am not sure but could probably be reviewed as well.
Any thoughts?
So I have a few hypotheses on why the change could have happened...
1. Wingers were simply more talented in the O6 since there were fewer center spots available more talented players got shifted to the wing upon reaching the NHL. The flip side of this is would be that currently due to the relative lack of expansion until last season there have been more guys who played center coming up getting switched to the wing.
2. Bobby Orr. Orr changed the role off defensemen when it came to carrying the puck and as more defensemen carried the puck more frequently wingers started carrying it less. The flip side would be that defensemen today are carrying the puck less, I don’t feel like this really makes sense, but could probably be looked into statistically.
3. The power play. Has there been a switch in common power play practice back to systems more similar to the O6? I am not sure but could probably be reviewed as well.
Any thoughts?
vadim sharifijanov
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a really interesting hypothesis. do we have any evidence for this?
i’ve read that hull was a converted center. but were howe, rocket, bathgate, etc?
I forgot about this thread until I realized Kucherov might break the RW record in the next two weeks, if he gets lucky he could even be the first 100 assist winger. Stunning season considering he wasn’t really on the radar when I first posted this.
Gaudreau still has an outside chance at Juneau’s record too, but less likely.
As for centres that got when they hit the bigs, Bathgate certainly fits the bill which is no surprise when considering his skill set. Not sure about others though.
Troubadour
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Kucherov needs only 11 in the last 15 games. And it wouldn't surprise me if he got 22 in the end. Breaking AlMo's Russian point record would be even cooler.
vadim sharifijanov
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maybe, looking back, the era of the franchise center was the aberration, not the phenomenon of playmaking wingers.
the O6 was full of playmaking wingers. there were great centers too, of course-- lach, abel and sometimes delvecchio, beliveau, h richard, mikita, ullman, and lots of others, but centers didn't have a monopoly on playmaking, as amply evidenced by the success of howe, lindsay, and sometimes delvecchio, olmstead and moore, bathgate, etc.
but that changed by the 70s. espo, clarke, perreault, ratelle, dionne, sittler when he had the winger support, and eventually trottier. the only significant team with a winger-led offense was montreal and that was a very special player.
and then the 80s/90s generation: gretzky, messier, stastny, savard, hawerchuk, pederson until his body fell apart, federko, then francis, yzerman, lafontaine, mario, then oates, sakic, turgeon, doug weight, fedorov, lindros, forsberg, and so on. and you still have elite non-playmaking centers like modano, roenick, sundin, etc etc.
it might just be that we saw three decades where the best players disproportionately played center, for whatever reason. jagr would be the exception the same way lafleur was. and then starting in the late 90s that started to change. of thornton's generation, who were the other truly elite offensive centers? after datsyuk, there really weren't any. but you had iginla, naslund, bertuzzi, alfredsson, hossa, and MSL. and post-lockout there is crosby and malkin and henrik sedin, but there's also ovechkin and kane and daniel sedin. getzlaf, backstrom, spezza, marc savard, etc are balanced out by the children of bure/jagr/selanne: kovalchuk, gaborik, kessel, and other kinds of wingers like heatley, nash, parise. and obviously it's only shifted further since, mcjesus notwithstanding.
we're about to have our third (different) winger MVP in four years, and ovechkin was 2nd to carey price in 2015. it feels unprecedented but maybe it's not, really, when you take a longer view of history. if i had to guess, maybe if there was a time where every player wanted to be beliveau, and that carried on to every player wanting to be gretzky/mario, maybe not as many people wanted to be sakic/yzerman as we once thought. maybe just as much of that generation wanted to be jagr/bure.
the O6 was full of playmaking wingers. there were great centers too, of course-- lach, abel and sometimes delvecchio, beliveau, h richard, mikita, ullman, and lots of others, but centers didn't have a monopoly on playmaking, as amply evidenced by the success of howe, lindsay, and sometimes delvecchio, olmstead and moore, bathgate, etc.
but that changed by the 70s. espo, clarke, perreault, ratelle, dionne, sittler when he had the winger support, and eventually trottier. the only significant team with a winger-led offense was montreal and that was a very special player.
and then the 80s/90s generation: gretzky, messier, stastny, savard, hawerchuk, pederson until his body fell apart, federko, then francis, yzerman, lafontaine, mario, then oates, sakic, turgeon, doug weight, fedorov, lindros, forsberg, and so on. and you still have elite non-playmaking centers like modano, roenick, sundin, etc etc.
it might just be that we saw three decades where the best players disproportionately played center, for whatever reason. jagr would be the exception the same way lafleur was. and then starting in the late 90s that started to change. of thornton's generation, who were the other truly elite offensive centers? after datsyuk, there really weren't any. but you had iginla, naslund, bertuzzi, alfredsson, hossa, and MSL. and post-lockout there is crosby and malkin and henrik sedin, but there's also ovechkin and kane and daniel sedin. getzlaf, backstrom, spezza, marc savard, etc are balanced out by the children of bure/jagr/selanne: kovalchuk, gaborik, kessel, and other kinds of wingers like heatley, nash, parise. and obviously it's only shifted further since, mcjesus notwithstanding.
we're about to have our third (different) winger MVP in four years, and ovechkin was 2nd to carey price in 2015. it feels unprecedented but maybe it's not, really, when you take a longer view of history. if i had to guess, maybe if there was a time where every player wanted to be beliveau, and that carried on to every player wanting to be gretzky/mario, maybe not as many people wanted to be sakic/yzerman as we once thought. maybe just as much of that generation wanted to be jagr/bure.
So in the end Kucherov tied Jagr’s record (and caught Mogilny too), insane season. Picked up the goal scoring at the end but his assists were slower over the last stretch of the season.
Your points are well made Vadim. Crazy to see this many winger MVPs in such quick succession. @Hockey Outsider if you have the time would you have the distribution of Hart votes for wingers over the years?
Your points are well made Vadim. Crazy to see this many winger MVPs in such quick succession. @Hockey Outsider if you have the time would you have the distribution of Hart votes for wingers over the years?
Just got reminded of this thread, looking back now that Kucherov is the first 100 assist winger it seems that it was inevitable he would be.
Also I love Panarin but I hope Gaudreau's 75 assists for a LW stands for a long time (though NHL.com still lists Huberdeau as a C, really the record should be his at 85 unless there is another shifted C I am not aware of!)
Also I love Panarin but I hope Gaudreau's 75 assists for a LW stands for a long time (though NHL.com still lists Huberdeau as a C, really the record should be his at 85 unless there is another shifted C I am not aware of!)
WarriorofTime
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Huberdeau absolutely played Wing that year.
Basically always out there with Bennett or Barkov.
JFedol
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As much as centres have way more responsibility and roles, a productive playmaking winger will always be 100x more impressive considering they have the backs against the wall 99% of the time.
Kucherov has to best the best playmaking winger ever IMO.
Kucherov has to best the best playmaking winger ever IMO.
Felidae
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- Sep 30, 2016
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That's still very debatable.
howe for instance, led the league in assists 3 times and finished top 10 in assists for 22 seasons straight.
Let's see how Kucherov's playmaking ages as he hits his mid 30s.. cause Howe still managed to finish 2nd in assists as a 36 year old.
I do think kucherov having the best playmaking peak for a winger is harder to argue against though.
Michael Farkas
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buffalowing88
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Mogilny certainly could be a playmaker at times. He had 7 seasons with over 40 assists, which isn't nothin'.
Dennis Bonvie
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Andy Bathgate was one of the best playmaking wingers ever.
Led the league twice in assists, came in 2nd four times, 3rd place once. 4th place twice.
Led the league twice in assists, came in 2nd four times, 3rd place once. 4th place twice.
WarriorofTime
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The Panther
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Ovechkin has done the same. Yet some people are convinced he can't pass a puck.
vadim sharifijanov
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thinking back to a discussion earlier in this thread, about whether maybe some of these O6 playmaking wingers might have been centers in a bigger league, i’m thinking that with guys like andy bathgate or bobby hull, even though they reportedly played center at lower levels, they must have been wingers for a reason that had to do with the game, not opportunity. because it’s not like larry popein or bill hay were preventing those guys from being the centers on their lines.
so my question, for those more familiar with the O6 game, is, what made a guy like bathgate or, say, bobby rousseau, better suited to wing if they were carrying what in the 70s/80s/90s would be a center’s playmaking load?
so my question, for those more familiar with the O6 game, is, what made a guy like bathgate or, say, bobby rousseau, better suited to wing if they were carrying what in the 70s/80s/90s would be a center’s playmaking load?
