Players who needed another great season to have a legitimate HHOF career

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Professor What

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Ron Hextall was just brought up in my rookies thread, and it made it occur to me that he might be a candidate here. He had a stellar rookie year, and one more pretty strong year in 1995-96, but he fell just short of that magical 300 wins mark that is so celebrated. I'm not sure that one more season would have done it for me, but in the eyes of the voters, had he had just one more reasonably strong season (maybe something as simple as having a full 1989-90), would 300 wins and a Vezina, and a Conn Smythe be enough to sell the induction committee on him?
 

Hobnobs

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Nov 29, 2011
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Ron Hextall was just brought up in my rookies thread, and it made it occur to me that he might be a candidate here. He had a stellar rookie year, and one more pretty strong year in 1995-96, but he fell just short of that magical 300 wins mark that is so celebrated. I'm not sure that one more season would have done it for me, but in the eyes of the voters, had he had just one more reasonably strong season (maybe something as simple as having a full 1989-90), would 300 wins and a Vezina, and a Conn Smythe be enough to sell the induction committee on him?

I think what he needed was to play better. The only reason he played post-94 is Bobby Clarke. He did have a great 96, no doubt but everything surrounding that is just meh. He definitely needed more than one season considering how long a guy like Joseph has waited.
 
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Professor What

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I think what he needed was to play better. The only reason he played post-94 is Bobby Clarke. He did have a great 96, no doubt but everything surrounding that is just meh. He definitely needed more than one season considering how long a guy like Joseph has waited.

I agree with you, but there's something about milestones and trophies that seems to get extra weight -- too much weight, imo. Cujo got the wins, but he lacks the trophies. That said, he'd get my vote ahead of Hextall, because I think he was clearly a better goalie. I think he's unfairly hurt by a journeyman reputation. There's too much attention given to his playing for six teams, and not enough focus put on strong stints in St. Louis and Toronto. Let one of those Vezina finalist years turn into a win, and I think he's in already. Personally, I think he should be.
 

ted2019

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Rick MacLeish could be added to the list as a second-line center who was fluid, skilled and tough. Since the word "if" is monumental in a thread such as this, "if" he remained healthy for the 1976 season (knee; Harold Snepsts) and of course add Bernie Parent's availability, and "if" the Flyers won a third straight Cup and "if" he played as important a role as he did in 1974 and 1975, then sure. He was having a strong 1975-76 season prior to the season-ending injury. A 3-time Cup winner and potentially as the team's leading scorer for three straight successful runs. He was also proficient to varying degrees in the playoffs of 1977, 1978, 1980 and 1981. MacLeish's odd injuries are well known, the torn knee ligaments already mentioned, the near-fatal car accident to the 88-stitch gash across his throat (Marcel Dionne's blade). His skill was compared to many greats including Gilbert Perreault when he was on. His strength, I forget Bob Kelly's exact words but it was praised mightily. It might be a reach for some but MacLeish was a skilled player and perhaps with a rewrite of glory would have been honored as such.

MacLeish would've needed at least 3 GREAT seasons to be considered a HOF. Was an above average player at best to the point where the great Robert Earl Clarke said that MacLeish was on the lazy side and needed a foot in his ass to play motivated.
 

MiamiScreamingEagles

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MacLeish would've needed at least 3 GREAT seasons to be considered a HOF. Was an above average player at best to the point where the great Robert Earl Clarke said that MacLeish was on the lazy side and needed a foot in his ass to play motivated.
Gary Dornhoefer was the motivator and sometimes watchdog in the professional career of MacLeish. Without Dornhoefer, MacLeish's lapses would have been more magnified. No doubt but as I said "if" he was the primary offensive player on three straight Cup wins, then his stature would have been boosted to be part of disucssion of a Hall of Famer. No guarantees just worthy of such an honor. As far as Bobby Clarke, he also said "MacLeish was the most talented player (teammate) on the 1970s teams." "If" in its usage can be a great vehicle to persuade or dissuade in an argumentative form. Bob Kelly said MacLeish was "as good" as Clarke on those teams and he said it recently as anecdotally. Again, that is the peak of one's stature; however, in a n eclipse of near devastating injuries and misfortune, MacLeish was worthy of higher praise than just being called lazy. Joe Watson put him in the same category as Eric Lindros and Peter Forsberg. That can be dismissed as rose-colored glasses but each person has a difference of opinion and belief.
 

Soundgarden

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Liut: is really on a 3 season goalie, as I see him more as a Mike Richter then a HOF type player. Take out Liut's 79/80, 80/81 and 86/87 seasons, his record screams Richter ( actually worse then Richter). Liut's NHL record is this.
Wins: 201
Losses: 216
Ties: 47

I mean, isn't that true with almost any player though? One season can be a fluke, three seasons is a solid indicator of who a player is.

Take out Leclair's three 50 goal seasons and he only has 2 40 goal seasons, take out Brett Hull's 70, 72 and 86 goal seasons and only has two seasons of 54 and 57 goals.
 
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rmartin65

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Unpopular opinion- Dany Heatley. As it is, he is a one-time first team AS and a one-time second team AS, but he has 6 top 10 goal seasons and 3 top-10 point seasons, and led the playoffs in points and assists once. Take away the horrific accident that (in addition to killing his teammate and friend) took away half a season from him as he was coming into his prime and assume he has a year similar to the years that frame that one (41+48 = 89 before, 50 + 53 = 103 after (and after the lockout)), and he likely adds another top ten in each category.

Or take away the lockout, and it is likely the same situation.

He is nowhere near the Hall right now, but I think he would have been a real candidate if either the accident or the lock-out didn't happen.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Unpopular opinion- Dany Heatley. As it is, he is a one-time first team AS and a one-time second team AS, but he has 6 top 10 goal seasons and 3 top-10 point seasons, and led the playoffs in points and assists once. Take away the horrific accident that (in addition to killing his teammate and friend) took away half a season from him as he was coming into his prime and assume he has a year similar to the years that frame that one (41+48 = 89 before, 50 + 53 = 103 after (and after the lockout)), and he likely adds another top ten in each category.

Or take away the lockout, and it is likely the same situation.

He is nowhere near the Hall right now, but I think he would have been a real candidate if either the accident or the lock-out didn't happen.

isn’t dany heatley with an extra elite season just markus naslund though?
 

rmartin65

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isn’t dany heatley with an extra elite season just markus naslund though?

While I think one could make that argument, I would disagree-

Naslund has a better peak, even if Heatley were to have that one extra great season. Three first team AS nods, two 2nd place Art Ross finishes, and a Lindsay tops what Heatley could realistically achieve in one additional season. However, Heatley was a premier player for longer than Naslund, even before an additional season- 6 seasons of note vs 4, and Heatley has some better PO numbers. Another good/great season puts him at 7 seasons of premier-level play, with 5(?) of them being as one of the bigger offensive stars. Heatley also has a pretty decent international record, and- as I remember it, at least- a greater impact on the game outside of points.

I will admit that I was/am a Heatley fan- he was a player I really enjoyed watching while in Middle/High School, so I may not be 100% unbiased.
 

kaiser matias

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While I think one could make that argument, I would disagree-

Naslund has a better peak, even if Heatley were to have that one extra great season. Three first team AS nods, two 2nd place Art Ross finishes, and a Lindsay tops what Heatley could realistically achieve in one additional season. However, Heatley was a premier player for longer than Naslund, even before an additional season- 6 seasons of note vs 4, and Heatley has some better PO numbers. Another good/great season puts him at 7 seasons of premier-level play, with 5(?) of them being as one of the bigger offensive stars. Heatley also has a pretty decent international record, and- as I remember it, at least- a greater impact on the game outside of points.

I will admit that I was/am a Heatley fan- he was a player I really enjoyed watching while in Middle/High School, so I may not be 100% unbiased.

And as much as I like Naslund, he doesn't have Heatley's 50 goal seasons, or trip to the Final to fall back on, both of which voters like to see.
 

The Panther

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And as much as I like Naslund, he doesn't have Heatley's 50 goal seasons, or trip to the Final to fall back on, both of which voters like to see.
Eh...what?

The under-rating of Naslund on here never ceases to amaze me. I don't even particularly like him, but he's always tossed aside with incredible speed.

Lest we forget here, Naslund was voted the best player in the League by his peers. I doubt Heatley was ever top-10.

Naslund was 1st-team All Star three years in a row. Heatley, at the weaker LW position, was 1st-team All Star once.

Naslund's top scoring finishes (2, 2, 4) are vastly better than Heatley's (4, 4, 9), and Naslund would have won the scoring title in '03 if not for the Moore hit late in the season.

Finally, Naslund was the best player on his team. Heatley never was.
 

bobholly39

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Nicholls: His 150 point season really means nothing since he was a post season AS 8 & 4. Good playoff performer, but the 2nd hlaf of his career really had a lot to be desired.
Theodore: Gotta be kidding, right?
Perry: Same as Theodore with a better resume.
Benn: Not a chance
Thomas: Slightly above Theodore.

I'm going with the idea that those players would match (or very close) their best season.

Nichols - 150 point doesn't mean 'nothing' as only 4 players in history have done that. If he hits it twice, it starts to look like less of a fluke and more of an insane offensive peak, even if it's helped by Gretzky.

Theodore. He's the farthest away from those I named - but his best season is probably the best of the bunch. If he somehow ended up with 2 hart trophies - as a goalie - you don't think that's enough to get to the HHOF? It would certainly be a weird case, with very low career numbers and even weak prime, but his peak would probably be the best peak of all-time not in the HHOF at that point.

Perry/Benn. They won significant awards. Once, in an overall non-HHOF worthy career, and maybe they don't make it. But if Benn won a 2nd Ross, or Perry a 2nd hart? I think that's very, very impactful. Martin St Louis is a good comparable to what those 2 would look like with 2 peak seasons with awards vs one. I think St Louis is still better overall, but give Benn a 2nd Ross or Perry a 2nd Hart and it's closer.

Thomas is a bit weird. He's probably good enough to make it already based on peak, and based on strength of prime, but his overall longevity is super weak. I think a 3rd peak season similar to 2011 definitely gets him in.
 

The Panther

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Nichols - 150 point doesn't mean 'nothing' as only 4 players in history have done that. If he hits it twice, it starts to look like less of a fluke and more of an insane offensive peak, even if it's helped by Gretzky.
Here's the thing: In 1989-90, Nicholls was doing better in the scoring race (3rd) than he had finished the year before with the 150 points (4th). Basically, he did do it two years in a row, but he got traded just into the second half of his second elite season.

I agree with you that his 150 points gets dismissed a little too quickly in the "Gretzky factor" reasoning. Someone would have to explain how Messier, Coffey, and Kurri never came near 150 points while playing with peak Gretzky, on a better team, if Nicholls wasn't an elite player?

I also found that earlier poster's comment about Nicholls' "second half leaving a lot to be desired" a bit odd. I would take 2nd-half Nicholls over first half any day. If we take his career as 1982 to 1998 (a few games at the end of 1981-82 and a few at the start of 1998-99 can be dismissed), he played 16 seasons. So, it divides 8 and 8, with the latter half starting with basically six PPG seasons for four franchises, including being 2nd on the Rangers and 1st on the Blackhawks in scoring. He was still an excellent producer up to 1996 (highest PPG on the Blackhawks), so again it's six really solid seasons. 339 points in 358 games, and this includes a quarter of those playing under Lemaire's Defence-always system.

Sure, he scored a bit more in the first eight seasons (esp. '88 to '90), but I tell you Nicholls in the 80s is quite possibly the single worst defensive player I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot, growing up with the Smythe division in the late 80s while also watching the Maple Leafs). In the 90s, he showed he was versatile, and could play a tough, checking role while also being a top scorer.

As an Oilers fan, I can not forget his heroic efforts in '92 to eliminate Los Angeles (13 points in 6 games) in the playoffs. He did well with the Hawks in the '96 playoffs as well.

(A bizarre Nicholls note is that in the short 1995 season -- when top-end scoring was generally way down --, Bernie had two 4-goal games in February!)
 

MXD

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Theodore. He's the farthest away from those I named - but his best season is probably the best of the bunch. If he somehow ended up with 2 hart trophies - as a goalie - you don't think that's enough to get to the HHOF? It would certainly be a weird case, with very low career numbers and even weak prime, but his peak would probably be the best peak of all-time not in the HHOF at that point.

That would make him, with a few adaptations (higher variations, better playoffs), Bobrovsky. No?
 

bobholly39

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That would make him, with a few adaptations (higher variations, better playoffs), Bobrovsky. No?

Sure, good comparable. But i think the Hart (and potential 2nd hart) is a lot more valuable than Bobrovski's Vezinas. Bob may yet get into the HHOF based on 2 vezinas, even though his career doesn't seem HHOF worthy overall. But a hart is much more significant for a goalie.
 

sr edler

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Lest we forget here, Naslund was voted the best player in the League by his peers. I doubt Heatley was ever top-10.

Naslund was 1st-team All Star three years in a row. Heatley, at the weaker LW position, was 1st-team All Star once.

Naslund's top scoring finishes (2, 2, 4) are vastly better than Heatley's (4, 4, 9), and Naslund would have won the scoring title in '03 if not for the Moore hit late in the season.

Finally, Naslund was the best player on his team. Heatley never was.

Näslund's three 1st all-star team selections at LW were against late phase Red Wing Shanahan, post-peak/post-concussion Kariya the year before he laid an egg in Colorado, and Kovalchuk before he had really hit his stride. Näslund's peak was good enough, and kinda impressive in its own little way, there's no need to try to artificially pump it up by some type of low key award/all-star selection counting in an attempt to paint him as a fringe all-time player or something.

Compare that to Mogilny with two 2nd team all-star selections who lost two 1st team all-star selections to peak Jagr and Selänne's 92–93 season (where he probably should have won, the one in 92–93, according to sr edler at least). Or Ziggy Palffy who went up against all of Jagr, Bure, Selänne in his prime.

Näslund won the Pearson but he probably shouldn't have, because Forsberg was a better player, and not only in general but that particular season. Sometimes when it's tight I think they just give it to the nice guy, as some kind of consolation prize, like Yzerman in the 80s or D. Sedin the 10s. I think some players were probably also low key jealous at Forsberg and/or perhaps perceived him as a grumpy/gritty diver.

Näslund/Heatley isn't the most interesting debate in sr edler's eyes, but yeah they probably aren't that far apart from each other if you just scratch a bit on the famous surface.

I guess Näslund was the best player on those VAN teams most of the time (?), but during the 01–02 season Bert scored at the best clip in the league, higher than Näslund and Iginla, and in 02–03 there were just 7 points between the two. Parts of famous duos have out-scored each other by larger gaps than that, and there was a half season there somewhere where Bert was firing on pretty ridiculous cylinders, out-playing Näslund. Näslund was better than Bert in the playoffs though. At least Näslund wasn't straight out bad in the post-season, like Bertuzzi.

Finally, Näslund put on a poor impression while on the national team. He was part of the famous Belarus fiasco in 2002 when he was finally there to show his worth (in Forsberg's absence too) after finally having made it big in the NHL. And when Holmström replaced him in 2006 Sweden won gold.
 
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Voight

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Ron Hextall was just brought up in my rookies thread, and it made it occur to me that he might be a candidate here. He had a stellar rookie year, and one more pretty strong year in 1995-96, but he fell just short of that magical 300 wins mark that is so celebrated. I'm not sure that one more season would have done it for me, but in the eyes of the voters, had he had just one more reasonably strong season (maybe something as simple as having a full 1989-90), would 300 wins and a Vezina, and a Conn Smythe be enough to sell the induction committee on him?

Another thing is Belfour, Fuhr, Roy and Hasek were all inducted from his era. HHOF is strict as is on goalies, so I imagine he'd have to at least had more than 1 or 2 elite seasons to be considered as a 5th goalie inductee.
 

sr edler

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and Naslund would have won the scoring title in '03 if not for the Moore hit late in the season.

There are so many low key errors in that post I can't keep up with all of them at once. Moore thing happened in 03–04 season. Näslund missed 4 games & finished 10 points behind St. Louis. Yes, I think Näslund was leading the scoring race when he got injured, and perhaps slowed down a little when he came back (?), but I have a feeling Näslund would have lost the scoring race anyways. He didn't really have to get injured to do that in other years. But also, even if he did squeeze out a Ross, you know who also won Rosses, Jamie Benn & Daniel Sedin, and few people are viewing them as world-beaters. I would rank Näslund over Keith Tkachuk though, probably.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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While I think one could make that argument, I would disagree-

Naslund has a better peak, even if Heatley were to have that one extra great season. Three first team AS nods, two 2nd place Art Ross finishes, and a Lindsay tops what Heatley could realistically achieve in one additional season. However, Heatley was a premier player for longer than Naslund, even before an additional season- 6 seasons of note vs 4, and Heatley has some better PO numbers. Another good/great season puts him at 7 seasons of premier-level play, with 5(?) of them being as one of the bigger offensive stars. Heatley also has a pretty decent international record, and- as I remember it, at least- a greater impact on the game outside of points.

I will admit that I was/am a Heatley fan- he was a player I really enjoyed watching while in Middle/High School, so I may not be 100% unbiased.

i think it's a six of one, half dozen of the other kind of thing with those two.

naslund has the higher best two seasons, heatley in this scenario would have more of the third/fourth best-level seasons.

And as much as I like Naslund, he doesn't have Heatley's 50 goal seasons, or trip to the Final to fall back on, both of which voters like to see.

i think insofar as naslund has a rep as a bad playoff performer, heatley does too. the difference is naslund's memorable weak performances came early, and actually not even in the playoffs if you think about it. the last game of the '03 regular season, the minnesota series in '03, and if you count international competition, veritable no shows in the '02 olympics and '04 world cup. to some degree, those are memorable only to fans of the canucks and sweden, because who really watched that game against LA or a vancouver/minnesota series where half the games started at 10 PM eastern time and all of them were coached by jacques lemaire but did not include brodeur or stevens? the belarus game was famous for the tommy salo highlight, but how many of us (other than señor edler) actually watched that game?

heatley, on the other hand, has a poor rep precisely because he went to the finals and everyone saw him totally disappear (one goal/point in five games). to a lesser degree, also his embarrassing showings in the small market but memorable 2006 buffalo/ottawa series (two points in the first game, zero in the other four) and the 2011 series against a much more high profile canucks team (one assist/point), maybe also in 2010 when everyone thought it was the sharks's time to go to the finals but were swept by chicago (two assists).

remember also that fans' out-of-market access to watching games in heatley's prime was astronomically higher than in naslund's.

all to say, naslund, while legitimately poor, is probably remembered as poor on paper. heatley was poor and we all saw it. i think that sticks with him, maybe even more than it does to naslund.

~

and one fine point about naslund's career that i think most people don't really know: the two big years are 2002 and 2003 obviously. but his third best year wasn't 2004, it was 2001. statistically, that's not obvious, because '04 naslund was near the top of the scoring race all year, but that 2001 year is really forgotten as a great year by him.

i think in all fairness, naslund got a first team all-star in 2004 that really should have gone to elias. he probably could have fairly duked it out in a toss up for the second team with rocket trophy kovalchuk. but in 2001, back from the dead robitaille got naslund's second team all-star (by two measly points, mind you).

here's the case: the canucks hadn't been in the playoffs since 1996, coincidentally naslund's first year in vancouver. after messier left, naslund made a jump like no one expected. he was legitimately a top five winger in the league (and got five hart votes that year, including a first and second place—now that was silly, mind you, but it still says something that nobody that year other than sakic, mario, and him got a first place vote). and this was a year when jagr was still winning art rosses, and elias, bure, and palffy all had career years.

up to when he broke his leg and missed the rest of the season (the last ten games, plus the colorado sweep), the canucks were 34-22-8-7. at the literal moment he broke his leg, midway through the third in a game against buffalo, he'd just gotten his second assist of the game to tie it up 2-2. after he went down, steve heinze of all people scored his second goal of the game to go up 3-2, then got his hat trick on the empty netter. including that game, the canucks went 2-6-3-0 to close out the regular season and come within a tie-break of missing the playoffs.

naslund finished the season 7th in goals (33rd in points), despite missing the last ten games. when he went down, he was 3rd in goals and 11th in points. and this is on a team with nobody on it. the number one center was andrew cassels, bertuzzi and morrison were 55 point players, the sedins were 30 point rookies, the only real offensive help he had was jovo in his breakout year, taking over after mccabe and aucoin were both traded away.
 
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The Panther

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There are so many low key errors in that post I can't keep up with all of them at once. Moore thing happened in 03–04 season. Näslund missed 4 games & finished 10 points behind St. Louis. Yes, I think Näslund was leading the scoring race when he got injured, and perhaps slowed down a little when he came back (?), but I have a feeling Näslund would have lost the scoring race anyways. He didn't really have to get injured to do that in other years. But also, even if he did squeeze out a Ross, you know who also won Rosses, Jamie Benn & Daniel Sedin, and few people are viewing them as world-beaters. I would rank Näslund over Keith Tkachuk though, probably.
Okay, I mixed up '04 and '03, whatever. The specific details aren't really important. My point is: Naslund was in the conversation for best player in the NHL for about three seasons, whereas Heatley was never anywhere near that conversation. At the moment of the Steve Moore hit, Naslund was leading the NHL scoring race, and he went on to win the Pearson that season.

Also, I don't buy the "poor playoff performer" line. Naslund was in the playoffs only three times in his prime years -- 2002, 2003, 2004. Yes, in 2002, he choked with 1 goal and 1 assist in six games, but the Canucks weren't quite a great team yet anyway and weren't going to beat the '02 Red Wings. However, in '03 and '04, Naslund put up 23 points in 21 games, and I remember him heroically saving Van's bacon in the dying seconds of game 7 vs. Calgary (they then lost in overtime).

Heatley is Jonathan Cheechoo with a slighly longer prime.
 

Nick Hansen

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Uhm, I don't think we have to absolutely murder Heatley to prop up moody Näslund. Heatley was far superior to Cheechoo.

Goals for their top 7 seasons (Cheechoo only lasted so long)

Cheechoo: 56, 37, 28, 23, 12, 9, 5

Heatley: 50, 50, 41, 41, 39, 39, 26(x2)

Points:

Cheechoo: 93, 69, 47, 37, 29, 16, 14

Heatley: 105, 103, 89, 87, 82, 72, 67
 
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