Players on Whom Public Opinion Has Changed Drastically Since Retirement...

[Staniowski]

You were correct (and The Panther incorrect), I was saying that Lemieux surpassed Gretzky as the current best player in the NHL.

What i said about Lemieux reaching a level no player has ever reached wasn't my personal opinion. I specifically said there are many people who thought that (and there certainly were), and there are still many people who think that.

Just one other thing about Gretzky/Lemieux....

I think Lemieux is the best scorer (goals and assists) in hockey history. If they played the same seasons, and both were equally healthy, I think Lemieux would outscore Gretzky most of the time.

But being the best scorer doesn't necessary mean he was the better player.

 

[MadLuke]

If they played the same seasons, and both were equally healthy, I think Lemieux would outscore Gretzky most of the time.

To go into the does not mean the best player (without going into gretzky impressive even strength, +/-, etc...), just scoring, do you feel the same for tourney and playoff ?

Scoring went down obviously, but 1997 Gretzky scored more points than younger 2001 Lemieux in the playoff and he was playing with Jagr... 93 Gretzky outscored Lemieux after the 2 first round...

In a short window, when you need to be "on" every game, every period, can see Gretzky getting on top more time, a 60%-40% type of split.

 

[Frank Cannon PI]

But being the best scorer doesn't necessary mean he was the better player.

I don't disagree with what you're saying.

In the same environment, in what ways do you think Gretzky would have an edge over Lemieux?

 

[Staniowski]

I don't disagree with what you're saying.

In the same environment, in what ways do you think Gretzky would have an edge over Lemieux?

I think Gretzky certainly did some things better than Lemieux. First and foremost, Gretzky had a somewhat better drive and a moment-to-moment intensity and focus. It was almost Bobby Clarke-like.

Lemieux was, of course, a lot bigger, stronger, overall more mobile (aided by his size), and much better goal-scorer. Gretzky may have been a better passer, but the difference wasn't that big.

If you look at their actual scoring numbers, the two biggest factors that (incorectly) make it look like Gretzky was a better scorer is1) health and most importantly 2) the differences in defense and the general quality of the league between the early and mid '80s, and the late '80s and the '90s.

It's always somewhat difficult to exactly separate different eras, but you could say the early '80s (and back into the '70s, although the '70s and early '80s were also different from each other) was quite a lot different from the late'80s and certainly the '90s.

In general, Gretzky had more difficulty scoring against better defense ( team defense) than Lemieux did.

 

[Staniowski]

To go into the does not mean the best player (without going into gretzky impressive even strength, +/-, etc...), just scoring, do you feel the same for tourney and playoff ?

Scoring went down obviously, but 1997 Gretzky scored more points than younger 2001 Lemieux in the playoff and he was playing with Jagr... 93 Gretzky outscored Lemieux after the 2 first round...

In a short window, when you need to be "on" every game, every period, can see Gretzky getting on top more time, a 60%-40% type of split.

Yes, of course it would apply to regular season, playoffs. best-on-best, etc. I just think Lemieux was somewhat of a better scorer, and I think he proved that (and would've proved it to an even greater extent with better health).

With respect to the examples you give....health is a major factor in both. For example, in the '93 playoffs, Gretzky's play wasn't as good as his numbers (though he was good), it wasn't the Gretzky of old, that's for sure. And Lemieux had severe back pain throughout those playoffs (and missed 2 games), and needed surgery after the playoffs. Plus tiredness from the cancer treatment. So it's hard to compare these performances.

For plus-minus and ES points....plus-minus has a lot more to do with the other 11 players on the ice than it does with the 1 player it's supposed to measure. As soon as Gretzky left Edmonton, his plus-minus nosedive and remained there for the rest of his career.

And what does ES points tell us? It's been a long time - 4 seasons - since McDavid has led the league in ES points, but everybody still thinks he's the best player. Besides, Lemieux was an excellent ES scorer.

 

[MadLuke]

And what does ES points tell us? It's been a long time - 4 seasons - since McDavid has led the league in ES points, but everybody still thinks he's the best player. Besides, Lemieux was an excellent ES scorer.

That why I added the just scoring part so we do not enter those subjects too much (i.e. if PPO change era to era or in tournaments....)