Ok and that's fine, and obviously Mogilny had an incredible season that year. However people are comparing him to Selanne's 76 goal season without the context of their linemates.
Players on Whom Public Opinion Has Changed Drastically Since Retirement...
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Ok and that's fine, and obviously Mogilny had an incredible season that year. However people are comparing him to Selanne's 76 goal season without the context of their linemates.
Bring Bak Damphousse
Fire Bergevin...into the Sun
In the early 00’s the hockey news had Rocket ranked #5 all time, I don’t think he’d even be the first hab anymore, most rankings I’ve seen have at least Harvey and Beliveau sometimes Lafleur ahead of him.
MadLuke
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Not sure how teammate dependant Selanne was as a player, he was quite the line driver-playmaker-making things happen.
No Kariya in 1998, 52 goals, Kariya in 1999 all year scoring 100 pts, he has 47 of them, affected his assist total obviously. But Housley/Olausson/Numminen-Zhamnov that maybe good enough for him to score goals nearly has much as he will outside an Gretzky-Lemieux situation.
No Kariya in 1998, 52 goals, Kariya in 1999 all year scoring 100 pts, he has 47 of them, affected his assist total obviously. But Housley/Olausson/Numminen-Zhamnov that maybe good enough for him to score goals nearly has much as he will outside an Gretzky-Lemieux situation.
mrhockey193195
Registered User
I think we should give Brodeur more credit than that. Maybe Gretzky-Lemieux-Messier. There's no question that Brodeur is a top-10 goalie of all time, and likely top-5. There's also (in my mind) no question that he's behind Hasek & Roy.
Yozhik v tumane
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I won’t argue Lafontaine wasn’t better than whatever Selänne had to work with, but besides Housley, he had Zhamnov, Tkachuk, Steen, Olausson and Numminen as major contributors to his production: that’s pretty solid. And Darrin Shannon, whoever that was.
Here’s a curiosity of unknown significance but I noticed Selänne never even once beat one of the post-season all-stars Belfour or Barrasso that season, nor did he score against Roy. Mogilny also didn’t score against Barrasso, but he netted four times on Roy and once on Belfour.
Edit: I’m aware Mogilny would have had more opportunities to score on Roy and Barrasso, just thinking out loud about the quality of competition.
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Frank Cannon PI
I'm a PI when I'm not busy baking spinach soufflé.
Selanne's rookie season certainly meant more to Winnipeg, than what Moligny's 1992-93 meant for Buffalo.
I'm a huge Selanne fan - I grew up a Jets fan - but I don't think Moligny took a backseat to Selanne that year. It was never lost on me that Mogilny played 7 less games that year, and most definitely would have passed him in points in 1992-93 (no question really).
Mogilny's skill set complimented LaFontaine's style of play as good as anyone could have, and I'm not sure that Selanne would have been able to replicate his production playing with LaFontaine; though the power play with LaFontaine and Hawerchuk would have been interesting. I've said this before - and recently - but LaFontaine gets almost all of the credit in that marriage, but they both played equal parts IMO. It's not like LaFontaine had a reputation of lifting up guys to their highest level of play, in the years leading up to playing with Mogilny.
At the same time, Housley was absolutely perfect with his stretch passes to Selanne, who had explosive speed his rookie season. Not to say Selanne wasn't fast in subsequent seasons, but his speed was never quite the same as it was in his inaugural season. Housley suited Selanne's style of play better than anyone else that he played with (Paul Kariya included). I was thinking who would have been better playing with Gretzky or Lemieux, Mogilny or Selanne? And I think it's Selanne, even though I believe Mogilny had a greater all-around skillset. But in the case of playing with LaFontaine, Mogilny (IMO) would perform the best out of the guys that played in the league at that time.
I never found that Numminen had much chemistry with Selanne. One would assume that they'd be best friends on the team, but I don't think that was the case.
I really liked Darrin Shannon. It's one of Mike Smith's best trades.
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MXD
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reckoning
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The first all-time lists I can remember was in The Hockey News in the summer of 1983 as part of their Top Ten issue. It was a ranking of the top 10 in various categories, mostly among current players at the time, but a few all-time lists as well.
It says it was a poll of over 150 past and present players, coaches, GM's, writers and broadcasters, but no more details than that.
Top 10 Goalies
1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Glenn Hall
3. Bernie Parent
4. Ken Dryden
5. Jacques Plante
6. Johnny Bower
7. Tony Esposito
8. Gerry Cheevers
9. Bill Durnan
10. Turk Broda
The big three O6 goalies were before my time, but it seemed growing up in the 70s and learning more about hockey history in the 80s, that Sawchuk was considered the best. Now it's not so certain, Plante finished ahead if Sawchuk in the last HOH Goalies list. But in 1983 Sawchuk had been firmly entrenched at #1 on the all-time wins and shutouts lists for some time. Now that other recent goalies had surpassed his numbers, that doesn't have an effect on observers.
Bernie Parent is much higher than he would be today. I guess those back-to-back Conn Smythe's were still fresh in everyone's mind.
But the big change is Gerry Cheevers. He didn't even make the most recent top 50 goalies list. He was actually rated lower than several of his contemporaries from his era like Worsley, Vachon and Smith.
Top 10 All-Time Defencemen
1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Tim Horton
4. Eddie Shore
5. Red Kelly
6. Denis Potvin
7. Larry Robinson
8. Pierre Pilote
9. Harry Howell
10. Brad Park
Horton and Howell are the ones who have dropped the most. On HOHs top 60 defencemen list, Horton was #17 and Howell didn't make the list. All I can come up with is that maybe it's because they were primarily defensive defencemen. Those types of players usually come up short at awards time, so their trophy cases are on the light side. But many of the voters at the time would have seen them play over the course of their carers and considered them to be the best defensively.
Top 10 All-Time Forwards
1. Gordie Howe
2. Jean Beliveau
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Bobby Hull
5. Maurice Richard
6. Phil Esposito
7. Stan Mikita
8. Guy Lafleur
9. Marcel Dionne
10. Mike Bossy
It was mentioned earlier that Espositos stature has dropped significantly, but I don't think it has. He was never considered equivalent to Howe or Hull. Most people felt his high points totals were helped by peaking in the expansion era when scoring was starting to take off. Excluding recent players, there's only four forwards higher than him on the last HOH list who aren't here. Two are Mikita and Lafleur, just ahead of him on HOH, just behind him on this one. The other two are Morenz and Nighbor, but I view that as the board here giving proper consideration to the earlier eras.
It bothers me that these THN lists only have one pre-Original 6 player on them. It would be the equivalent of somebody making an all-time list today and only having one player before 1980 on it. Recency bias and dismissing anything that happened before you started watching hockey is not a new phenomenon.
The big drop on this list is Marcel Dionne. Today he would not stand a chance at getting rated ahead of Clarke, Trottier or Bossy. His playoff record gets a lot of flak today, but at the time the perception was that he was unfortunate to be stuck on bad teams.
It says it was a poll of over 150 past and present players, coaches, GM's, writers and broadcasters, but no more details than that.
Top 10 Goalies
1. Terry Sawchuk
2. Glenn Hall
3. Bernie Parent
4. Ken Dryden
5. Jacques Plante
6. Johnny Bower
7. Tony Esposito
8. Gerry Cheevers
9. Bill Durnan
10. Turk Broda
The big three O6 goalies were before my time, but it seemed growing up in the 70s and learning more about hockey history in the 80s, that Sawchuk was considered the best. Now it's not so certain, Plante finished ahead if Sawchuk in the last HOH Goalies list. But in 1983 Sawchuk had been firmly entrenched at #1 on the all-time wins and shutouts lists for some time. Now that other recent goalies had surpassed his numbers, that doesn't have an effect on observers.
Bernie Parent is much higher than he would be today. I guess those back-to-back Conn Smythe's were still fresh in everyone's mind.
But the big change is Gerry Cheevers. He didn't even make the most recent top 50 goalies list. He was actually rated lower than several of his contemporaries from his era like Worsley, Vachon and Smith.
Top 10 All-Time Defencemen
1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Tim Horton
4. Eddie Shore
5. Red Kelly
6. Denis Potvin
7. Larry Robinson
8. Pierre Pilote
9. Harry Howell
10. Brad Park
Horton and Howell are the ones who have dropped the most. On HOHs top 60 defencemen list, Horton was #17 and Howell didn't make the list. All I can come up with is that maybe it's because they were primarily defensive defencemen. Those types of players usually come up short at awards time, so their trophy cases are on the light side. But many of the voters at the time would have seen them play over the course of their carers and considered them to be the best defensively.
Top 10 All-Time Forwards
1. Gordie Howe
2. Jean Beliveau
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Bobby Hull
5. Maurice Richard
6. Phil Esposito
7. Stan Mikita
8. Guy Lafleur
9. Marcel Dionne
10. Mike Bossy
It was mentioned earlier that Espositos stature has dropped significantly, but I don't think it has. He was never considered equivalent to Howe or Hull. Most people felt his high points totals were helped by peaking in the expansion era when scoring was starting to take off. Excluding recent players, there's only four forwards higher than him on the last HOH list who aren't here. Two are Mikita and Lafleur, just ahead of him on HOH, just behind him on this one. The other two are Morenz and Nighbor, but I view that as the board here giving proper consideration to the earlier eras.
It bothers me that these THN lists only have one pre-Original 6 player on them. It would be the equivalent of somebody making an all-time list today and only having one player before 1980 on it. Recency bias and dismissing anything that happened before you started watching hockey is not a new phenomenon.
The big drop on this list is Marcel Dionne. Today he would not stand a chance at getting rated ahead of Clarke, Trottier or Bossy. His playoff record gets a lot of flak today, but at the time the perception was that he was unfortunate to be stuck on bad teams.
The Panther
Registered User
These lists are really interesting. The thing that gives me pause with these, however, is that the poll description suggests they were asking "present players", which I think would tend to skew this a lot. In 1983, most players were in their teens and twenties, and the farthest back any player (except maybe Brad Park) could remember was about 1964. I wonder if that is why the result has Tim Horton above Eddie Shore, for example. (Would be interesting to know how many "present players" were polled from the total.)
Just like today, if they polled players on the greatest defencemen of all time, and the oldest person asked was, say, Connor McDavid (age 28), how many are going to think of Red Kelly or Denis Potvin or Pierre Pilote, let alone Eddie Shore? Today's players' memories go back to about 2008.
It's also interesting that Gretzky is already listed 3rd among forwards, and this is before he'd ever won the Stanley Cup (or Canada Cup). A year later, Stan Fischler (Mr. 'Anti-Oilers') published his Hockey's 100 book (right after the Oilers' first Cup), and he ranked Gretzky 10th, which drew considerable flack at the time. Oddly, it seems like in 1983, when championships were "easier" to get (smaller League), the coaches / GMs / players considered championships less important in a player's all-time ranking than most fans do today (now that it's much harder to win).
I think the worst thing to happen to Espositio was himself and the older guy he was traded for in Ratelle.
he is just one of those polarizing players like Coffey, EK65 and Jagr to some extent.
Came here to say Firsov at least in North American context and Nieds here on these boards but in different directions.
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